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Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Reply to Sis Dorcas 2 ...


Sis Dorcas you wrote ...

"First Rahman, I thought you and I are on the same page...? "


--- Forgive me sis but actually i think i shouldn't even had gotten involved in this ... It's way over my head all this talk of covenants, and them being binding and/or non binding depending on what the second party (man) does ... i guess it'd be easier for me to understand if the contracts we're between men and men, but when their between our perfect and infinite God (The first party who presented the contracts in the first place, and whom on His end says they're everlasting), and imperfect and finite men (The poor wretched second party whom He already knows is way lacking in being able to uphold the bargain) that throws a curve at me that intellectually i can't grasp, but spiritually i can hold on to and believe in anyway by faith ... i guess in my ignorance i expect more out of God in upholding His end of covenants than i do men (tho God knows i try to do my part), because He's so much bigger and abler than me to keep them ... Only a loving God would strike such a one sided (way more to our benefit it seems than to His) bargains with such wretches as ourselves ...

So bless God sis that you see us as being on the same page, because from my apparent lower position of understanding on this subject i don't even see us as being in the same book :-P ... As with the little emotican you used with the dark glasses, i guess you can see my eyes (where i'm coming from) on this subject - but i can't see yours ... So ...

[b][color=0066FF]Lord God if i'm ignorant of something that i should know about what's being discussed on this thread then please knock the scales from my eyes that i may see as clearly as sis Dorcas ... In the precious name of Jesus, and by power and might of Holy Spirit i petition ... Amen ...[/color][/b]

So no matter - because if all this is is a discussion, and not a concieted (excessive appreciation of one's own worth or virtue - usually at the expense of another) bashing, beat down, or a sort of standing on the neck of the beleguered Jew (Israel) then i bow out, and will just follow the thread as it continues and learn, because the afore mentioned is my primary concern ...

[b][color=CC3300]Rom.11: 11 - says: "I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."[/color][/b] ... What i pray for for myself (and all other saints) is that Christ will shine in me/us in such a way as to draw the Jew toward salvation in Him ... i think history shows that we've done a pretty good job of provoking them to "anger" and "rejection", even amongst those now saved ...

Oh ... one last point that hit me ... You said;

"Note that God was under the impression He had brought Israel to Himself."


--- i don't think our all knowing God is ever under an "impression" ... i think that's our realm ... He always knows for sure ...

Bless you sis in the wonderful light of our calling! ...
:knockedout:

 2007/8/10 10:45Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 the Eternal Context of Scripture...a well of Eternal Depth


bro Jay

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said in your last post:

Quote:
Christ is the firstborn among many brethren and we are co-heirs sharing in these promises. But the promises were made to Christ. We just share in the promises. Unbelieving Israel does not have a distinct destiny now that the New Covenant is here. In the OT times there were Gentiles and Jews, now there are unbelievers and believers.



i would say that the promises being made to Christ are made to us also as we share in them with Him. Now the word seed could be singular or plural and i think it is important to consider that perhaps in the scripture concerning the promise it is not one nor the other but both, Singular in that Christ is the one to whom the Promise is made but Plural also in that we share in it also at the same time. Something to consider perhaps?A broader Context than we may perceive?

The destiny of unbelieving Israel, that is those Jew which don't come to Christ is eternal damnation, end of story.i wasn't talking about a unique Destiny for unbelieving Israel but for believing Israel. However, for those that are Elected by God to Salvation as we have been have a Destiny which God has written for them which involves the 144000 for example, the temple and some other things which can't be fulfilled by us as Gentiles. it's along the same lines that you brother Jay have a Destiny written for you by God which can be fulfilled by you and not me and vice versa. We are both Saved by Grace yet our destinies remain distinct just as our experiences are unique and make us different.

Quote:
Let's consider two places for a moment. First the land of Palestine. Second a new heaven and a new earth. How many people do you know that would prefer Palestine? Palestine--while a literal place--is used as a symbol and a type of a better land that is promised to Abraham and his Seed--which is Christ and all who are in Christ.



bro Jay indeed Palestine is a type of something better which is to come and i see your point. do you see mine though that Palestine and the land given to Abraham is not separate from the Better Land but is a [i][b]part[/b][/i] of it. Heaven is not some place in the wild blue yonder which we are waiting to go to, we are there even now in a real sense and yet in a real sense we await His return to take us there. Paul says we are seated in Heavenly Places with Christ...not later on but [i][b]now[/b][/i]. i don't know exactly how many people would like Palestine now to be the fulfilment of this promise, i imagine it would be as many as can make a bunch of money off of that. All the same the lands given Abraham will be given back to Israel as fulfilment of the Promise. The Better land is Heaven and earth, including where Israel is with the addition of Jordan Syria, Lebanon and some others, not at this momement but soon enough. i would ask bro Jay, when we pray the "Our Father" what does it mean to ask that His Kingdom come or His will be done on earth as in Heaven? that to me is a translation of what is in the Heavens to the Earth so if the land of Heaven is ours, then isn't the earth ours also? didn't Christ say the meek shall inherit the earth? it seems to me that whatever occurs in Heaven is translated on earth somehow and so if the Better land promised Abraham's Seed is Heaven, it is earth also. We see also that Christ will rule from Jerusalem for 1000 yrs and all must pay homage to HIm there and come up for the appointed feasts lest He keeps rain from falling on those lands which don't send envoys to the feasts. That is quite a literal thing.

i believe we ought to reckon with the Literal Nature of Scripture and by default assume things to be allegorical always, in hindsight i have missed out on many things because of that assumption. Scripture is Manifold, being Literal and Allegorical in some instances but to understand the Allegory, we have to reckon with the Literal. This simultaneous duality of scripture tends to fry our brains and leave us with this idea of it must be "either or" when it is both. We oft argue about the meaning of certain scriptures as though we think we have the corner on the Truth without considering that perhaps my brother or sister is right also and that Scripture is Manifolf, not being restricted to 1 or 2 meanings but an Infinite number of meanings because the Author Himself is Inifinte and Infinity. There is a Jewish tradition i heard of which says each verse in scripture can be interpreted at least 360 different ways...we sometimes are bugging over 2 seemingly different meanings and yet there may be at least 358 more! all of a sudden when i see the posts here and differing viewpoints, i see more and more that they are not necessarily wrong but different aspects of the Truth, testifying to the Manifold Nature of Scripture as it's Author. by His Grace i see it and so my reading and understanding of the word has been Revolutionized and so much has been opened up to me in a short period as a result.

drinking deeply...

Grace and Peace is ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/8/10 12:55Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re: the Eternal Context of Scripture...a well of Eternal Depth

Quote:
The destiny of unbelieving Israel, that is those Jew which don't come to Christ is eternal damnation, end of story.


I agree.

Quote:
i wasn't talking about a unique Destiny for unbelieving Israel but for believing Israel.


Here is where we begin to separate. I understand that there is a difference between Jews and Gentiles just as there is a difference between Males and Females. However, scripture is clear that when it comes to the promises of God 'there is no distinction.'
Galatians 3:27-29
[color=000099]For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.[/color]

Quote:
However, for those that are Elected by God to Salvation as we have been have a Destiny which God has written for them which involves the 144000 for example, the temple and some other things which can't be fulfilled by us as Gentiles.



It is interesting that you mentioned the 144,000 because I was just reading in The Apocalypse Code by Hank Hanagraaff about this being the most misunderstood number in the bible. For example, Tim Lahaye says that these 144,000--exactly that number--are Jewish men who have not defiled themselves with women and have a visible mark on their foreheads and are virgins.

From Hank's book:
"In truth, the number 144,000 excludes neither non-Jewish men nor women. Far from fixated on race and gender, the number 144,000 is focused on relationship. It represents true Israel--not by nationality but by spirituality, not by circumcision of the flesh, but by circumcision of the heart. Indeed, the 144,000 are "a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people, and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb...the 144,000 and the great multitude are not two different peoples but two ways of describing the same purified bride. Literarily, the 144,000 and the great multitude are comparable to the Lion and the Lamb. Just as John is told about a Lion and turns to see a Lamb (Rev. 5:5-6), so he is told about the 144,000 and turns to see a great multitude (Rev 7). Thus, the 144,000 are to the great multitude what the Lion is to the Lamb, namely, the same entity seen from two different vantage points. From one vantage point, the purified bride is numbered; from another, she is innumerable--a great multitude that no one can count."

Also, why would there be anymore need of a Temple now that Christ has secured redemption? What kind of sacrifices would be offered in a Temple since Christ was the atonement 'once for all'?

God bless.

 2007/8/10 15:46Profile









 Re: Reply to Sis Dorcas 2 ...


Hi Rahman,

You make me smile....

Quote:
It's way over my head all this talk of covenants, and them being binding and/or non binding depending on what the second party (man) does ...

It's not as complicated as it sounds at first.

In the Old Testament, God's covenants - apart from the one with Noah - had a practical requirement, and man had to [u]do[/u]\[u]practise[/u] his part.

It's true God told Abram what He had in mind for his descendents, but Abram was in relationship with Him. Abram believed God's word. (=faith)

(Not to digress, but I believe there is biblical evidence that perhaps God was [i]visible[/i] to Abram.... because He later told Moses he wouldn't [i]see[/i] Him any more.)

Anyway... moving on... after the law was given, there was a requirement to [u]obey[/u] the law - which meant believing in God... of course. A component of idolatry\unbelief accompanies all Israel's departures from His blessings.

Anyway, fast forward to the New Covenant, and it is, in character, different at its roots for two big reasons.

The first is, that God Himself undertook to fulfil [u]both[/u] parts - His [u]and[/u] ours.

Jesus, as the representative Man, both believed into it as our sacrifice-to-be, and died to end the law, that we may enter God's grace forever through faith, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit to [i]enable[/i] us to live as He did.

The second is, that gentiles are admitted to all its benefits without exception, on the same basis as Israel, namely, faith.


Is that glorious or not?


Therefore, while God is still deeply desiring that Israelites should believe into His New Covenant with them, gentiles who believe are now included in the body of people who will receive the outworking of any blessings which had been waiting for ethnic Israel.

The reframing of how those blessings will look, as reframed by Paul (mainly) but also Peter and John, either attracts Israel into a superlative spiritual relationship with Him, or repels him for its lack of earthly advantage.

 2007/8/11 3:43









 Re: Gentile Tribulation question


Hi JaySaved,

I just wanted to say I believe it's slightly misleading to refer to an 'indistinct destiny for Israel', because all of Israel who believe [u]will be saved[/u] - but under the terms of the New Covenant [i]only[/i].

Their struggle is always, it seems, over whether to risk holding out for fulfilments of the Old as they understood it. That they have this confusion at all, rests on what they are taught by their religious leaders to expect of the Old, these men being still in denial of the New.

 2007/8/11 3:56









 Re: Gentile Tribulation Question


Dear Eli,

Thank you for your clarifications.

What I find lacking not only in your elucidation but those of everyone else who attempts to state that 'all Israel' will be saved, is the other side of the Israel story, namely, their unbelief.

There is a continual and repetitive silence on all the Israelites also, who have not believed in Jesus - who will [u]not[/u] be included in the 'all Israel' which will be saved.

Some of these people are alive today. Others will be alive in the future, but many have already passed.

This is exemplified by yourself above, in choosing to end your quote from Ezekiel at v 20.

Here is v 21

"But [i]as for those[/i] whose hearts follow the desire for their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their deeds on their own heads," says the Lord GOD.


I believe this is just as much a part of the gospel as the other, because it is clear that the [i]only[/i] people who will 'know the Lord' are those who have entered His New Covenant.

Therefore, the term 'all Israel', refers to the completion of [u]the Church[/u].

In the light of v 21, it cannot mean anything else, even though the word was originally given to a 'Jewish' prophet. I don't believe this separates mankind as much as some interpreters seem to be saying. It is this 'seem to be saying' which I am resisting continually.

Looking at v 21 again, idolatry will always - although it need [i]not[/i] prevent - people - any people - from turning to worship God.

I don't think the specifics of 'detestable things' of which Ezekiel was aware, need be a restriction on including newer forms of idolatry.

Also, the phrase 'on their own heads' reminds me of this from the New Testament:

Matthew 27:25
And all the people answered and said, "His blood [i]be[/i] [u]on us and on our children[/u]."

Acts 5
27 And when they had brought them, they set [i]them[/i] before the council. And the high priest asked them,
28 saying, "Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, [u]and intend to bring this Man's blood on us[/u]!"


One has to remember that the council [u]had taken responsibility for killing Jesus[/u] back when they did it, but even I am amazed by the speed with which they seek to deny it!


Another thing which perplexes me in the interpretations I keep hearing, is the futurism of them [u]all[/u], especially the idea there is going to be one last great revival-style turning of Jews to faith. Having said that, I don't dispute the possibility of those living in Israel itself having such an occurence, but this must represent a very small number of all who could call themselves Jews worldwide.

I suppose I feel frustrated at the lack of lateral thinking - other centuries - other revivals (and so on) - because historically, Jews have been finding Christ ever since the Church began. Amen.


You see, I'm happy to believe with those who find Christ, but I see no separate glorious end for 'Jews' outside of Him. That's all.

 2007/8/11 4:33









 Re: Gentile Tribulation Question


Re: Butting in...

IRONMAN said

Quote:
it is God Himself who will make her ready.

Hi bro,

There is something very small which you are missing in your interpretation of scripture. That is, that Israel entered the New Covenant with God on the day of Pentecost, and just like you are bringing up your children to know the Lord, so did those Israelites who knew Him by the Spirit, bring up their children to know Him.

Subsequent generations of unbelieving Jews are faced with the truth Jesus spoke to Thomas, and that's hardly a burden to them.

John 20
24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came...

27 Then He [Jesus]said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand [i]here,[/i] and put [i]it[/i] into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."
28 [u]And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God[/u]!"
29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. [u]Blessed [i]are[/i] those who have not seen and [i]yet[/i] have believed[/u]."


Brother, I can hardly believe you've read the New Testament and still maintain Israel is yet to be saved.... What's going on....???

OK. Let me say this also, that in my many conversations with a few Christians in the US, I find a degree of confusion between the terms of the Old Covenant and the New. By this I mean that even born again brethren and sisters have an Old Covenant attitude to... for instance... sin.

By now you may have read my reply to Rahman above. I believe that explanation of God keeping [i]both[/i] sides of the New Covenant, is a different solution to
Quote:
The question i am concerned about is now, ok so we have broken the covenant and failed at holding up our end of the bargain, will God fail at holding up His end?

than you one you offer, which is rooted in the sovreignty of God and doctrinally, (A sister in the Lord has told me that in the US one has to be on or the other of Calvin or Arminian - reminds me sadly of 1 Cor 1 and Paul's cry 'Is Christ divided?') of a Calvinistic explanation.

But, it's the right answer from the wrong reasoning.... except inasmuchas if the death of Christ is not sovreignly sufficient for the sin of the world, we are [i]all[/i] lost!


So, if you see that Christ kept our 'end of the bargain' for us, you have understood the immensely significant difference between the Old and the New Covenant.

Further, this leaves 'Israel' without excuse.

This is why Paul's arguments - that all must be concluded under sin - that keeping the law only makes us more of a sinner not less - matters so much.... because, Christ kept it for us ALL.

And therefore, those of us who have entered the New Covenant with God, are not free to sin, but rather are free [i]from[/i] sin, if we walk in the Spirit, [u]not[/u] [i]giving[/i] ourselves to 'the flesh'.


If you read Ephesians with all this in mind, you'll see that God is preparing His bride already, and on His own terms. We do agree.

 2007/8/11 5:09









 Re: Gentile Tribulation Question


Hi again Eli

You said

Quote:
The issue I am contending is that the root spoken of in Romans 11 is the Abrahamic promise, the blessing through Abraham, which is Christ. I think we would agree it is Christ, but I'm only saying that the promise of Jesus Christ is that of the Abraham Covenant, and thus that is what the root is. Therefore all those of faith are the children of Abraham, those who believe in Messiah. I'm pretty sure we agree on this point, it was a misunderstanding of wording... correct?

We do agree.

What I believe is misleading, is to say anything at all, which would give a 'Jew' any idea that their geneology is a factor in their salvation.

That's why I would always choose to refer to Israel, to talk about the Jews and their natural olive tree - Jesus - rather than to imply in any way at all (I cannot state this too strongly.) that their natural inheritance is what saves them.

Remember in John's gospel, 'we have Abraham to our father' was rejected by Jesus. This is why Paul's re-framing of Abraham's importance being his faithfulness, is so vital to conveying truth, quite apart from the fact that he was a gentile when he believed, which is also critical.

Also, the Bible [i]does[/i] use the 'Root' and 'Branch' terminology, so it is even more important to trace the connection between faith and natural descent, when explaining this.

You see, I keep hearing that the gentile 'church' has been grafted into the Jewish nation, because they were 'God's chosen people'.

This simply is not true. It is a misrepresentation of what the Bible actually says.

And it's why I keep pointing out that many Jews - that is, those who die in a state of rejection of Jesus - will not be included in the spiritual Israel which God sent His Son to establish - that kingdom of God within men's hearts.


Brother IRONMAN, I believe this is where John's interpretations of the temple being His Body, is a key elucidation for New Covenant believers.

Peter picks up on the living stones right early in Acts and again in his epistles, and Paul also refers to the Church as His temple.


Eli, you said
Quote:
When they shall look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as one mourns for an only son on that great and final day of the Lord.

I honestly believe it will be too late then. If they don't mourn for Him and repent and believe before He comes, I believe that mourning will be of those who left it too late... maybe like the foolish virgins who were, after all, watching for Him, they thought.

 2007/8/11 5:25
Eli_Barnabas
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Dear Linn,

I appreciate your comments, and perhaps you have been misunderstanding me, for I do not believe that unbelieving Jews shall be saved... of course not, that would strike at the heart of the Gospel that salvation is by grace through faith. I am in no way saying unbelieving Jews are automatically saved simply because they are Jewish.

I'm talking about the NATION, not individuals per se. All Israel shall be saved. There is coming a time when the entire nation shall turn to Christ in repentant faith. This does not mean unbelieving Jews are saved... the Lord Himself shall turn that nation to Himself [b]when He comes[/b].

Quote:
I honestly believe it will be too late then. If they don't mourn for Him and repent and believe before He comes, I believe that mourning will be of those who left it too late... maybe like the foolish virgins who were, after all, watching for Him, they thought.



I disagree with you sister, because the Scripture says clearly in the context of Zechariah 12:10,

[i][u]"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications[/u]: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."[/i]

How can you overlook this? It is speaking not of the Gentiles but the inhabitants of Jerusalem... and the Spirit of grace and supplication CAUSES them to mourn for Him, in repentance; it is natural that they shall do that: the Messiah Israel (as a nation) has rejected for over two thousand years since they crucified Him on the tree is ample cause to mourn, as one mourns for an only son. This is definitely a supernatural event in prophecy and by necessity IS different than the normal way of coming to Christ so many have entered into during this diaspora.

Israel is currently blinded, but there is coming a day the Scripture plainly says when that blindness shall be supernaturally removed by the Lord and then they shall see Jesus is their Messiah. It won't be too late, it will be right on time, and with Paul all we can do is exclaim, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"

[i]"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."[/i] (Romans 11:25-27)

Who of Israel shall be saved then? All Israel. Not those who "fell in the desert" during this time of blindness, but all of Jacob that remains at the time of Christ's return. Will that be a small number? Probably. But it will be that wonderful glorious ALL, and that ALL will be for the world, as Paul puts it, [b]life from the dead[/b].

[i]"Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?"[/i] (11:12)


_________________
Eli Brayley

 2007/8/11 16:23Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Gentile Tribulation Question

Quote:

Eli_Barnabas wrote:
Dear Linn,

I appreciate your comments, and perhaps you have been misunderstanding me, for I do not believe that unbelieving Jews shall be saved... of course not, that would strike at the heart of the Gospel that salvation is by grace through faith. I am in no way saying unbelieving Jews are automatically saved simply because they are Jewish.

I'm talking about the NATION, not individuals per se. All Israel shall be saved. There is coming a time when the entire nation shall turn to Christ in repentant faith. This does not mean unbelieving Jews are saved... the Lord Himself shall turn that nation to Himself [b]when He comes[/b].




Not all of the pre-existing house of Israel will be included in the salvation at the end of the Tribulation, except by their faith, which will not be determined until the White Throne Judgement.

One specific you have not mentioned is that it is only those of the nation of Israel [u]that remain[/u] alive unto the end of the tribulation will come face to face with their triumphant King, realize who He is by the piercings evident in Him, will mourn grieviously, and come to faith as they realize how wrong they have been.

Any scattering of non-marked Gentiles will also realize that the Being who came to the rescue, and kept them all from dying, is beyond your average general. That there will be gentiles in the Millenium is fairly evident from the description of Revelation about the Millenium, and the requirements for all to come to Jerusalem each year, or risk judgement.

Jesus will indeed be ruling with a rod of iron, for despite all those that will believe on Jesus when they understand who He is, living it out under even a benevolent despot will be a bit hard to take for our independent natures...which is why Jesus has us, to carry out His commands.

As best I can determine from the hints laid out in the stories and parables, each of us will be assigned some duties that will aid in the administraition of the worldwide kingdom, probably in addition to learning a great deal ourselves as we do so.

What is particularly to be stated is that no unbeliever will pass into the Kingdom that is the Millenium.

The Judgement of the Lambs and Goats sorts out those, Jew or Gentile, who will not believe, or who are already disqualified by having taken the Mark of the Beast.

Only the elect can enter in to the final testing of the human race in the Millenium...but their children, and their children's children may or may not, despite having Christ as King and Lord, decide to place their life and soul in His hands. They will believe, because their God is before their eyes...but they may not choose to submit to a God other than themselves, as is the primary problem of mankind.

As Eli's and my views match substantially, I will leave the discussion in his capable hands.


Blessings to all,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/8/11 17:45Profile





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