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IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sis K-D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

as i have said before, i don't agree with the Catholic stance of Mary being a co-redemptress but by His Grace i see a much wider context for Gen 3:15 and the woman in the Revelation and it seems God has yet to quicken you to that. Christ is the Seed of the woman, Eve and all those women in that whole line which ends with Mary.so the woman is not either Israel or Mary but both, the context is much broader than you have been enabled to see as yet. He is also the Seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all the way the line through David and Joseph in that this is his human lineage which makes him the Son of man. Now He said of Himself before Abraham was, I Am, He said also that He is the Root and Shoot (offspring of David) that is AWESOME! Christ is not just the Seed, He Himself is the Root of the plant from which comes the Seed, the Alpha and Omega indeed...

Grace and PEace be ours in Jesus' Name.AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/7/31 12:13Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

There is a seed of the woman, that is Christ the man. There is a Seed of God the Father, that is God the Son, Jesus Christ. One is earthly, One is Heavenly. The earthly died on the Cross, the Heavenly was made to be birthed in the believer. That is the Seed Peter speaks about being born again of Incorruptable Seed sealed in the believer by the Holy Spirit. Just like the Father's Seed in the seed of Mary by the Overpowering of the Holy Spirit. We are no longer of this earth. We are already seated in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus the Seed of The Father in us and us in the heavenlies. That same Seed that was with the Father before the foundation of the World that is the Christ, The Only Begotten of the Father, that Christ now begotten in us.

I did not have to give My Father permission to give me birth, that was His will and His pleasure. Praise God. Thank you Father for giving me new birth, that I might be a son of God. No wonder no one understood this except Paul. Peter never speaks of the Cross in Acts. It took association with Paul for even Peter to come to the knowledge of the Seed, Incorruptable in him. Then even the Peter at the Last said, that "things that Paul said are hard to understand."

2 Peter 3:11-18 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

We know these things, let us put them in their proper place and grow in that knowledge that "Christ in you is the Hope of Glory", a whole complete new person a new creature, that is a son of God a direct offspring of God the Father, as Christ the only begotten.

My new creature brethren, let us seek to know Him and fellowship in His suffering and baptism and being of One Spirit and Mind let us go on into Him. Living son's of God destined for the Father's house. Let us learn His House by His Son's leadership and preparation as all Rockefellers are under tutors and governors before they receive their inheritances, 21,000,000 dollars and the rule of the House and participation in the Father's work.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/7/31 16:29Profile









 Re:

Ironman, I have been quickened to the Truth, and had hoped to share this truth with you. As I have declared before, Mary being the Woman in Genesis and Revelation is a Catholic belief. We, and many do believe that the apostate Catholic Church will be very much a part of the Harlot..who rides the beast. Even among Catholics many believe this,so I'm not calling names. This Marion worship will be a major part of it, unless you are a part of the promotion of the Marion Worship, which I don't believe you are, but just don't know the implications of what you are saying...or are not saying...just to get along.???? It is my prayer that the Lord will Quicken you to these truths, as He has so many others.

Please read with prayerful consideration.
Love in Christ
Katy-did


Who is the woman of Revelation 12?

This part of this article will address the following ideas as applied to the woman of Revelation 12. The crown of twelve stars, sun, and moon; and the flight into the wilderness.
The first Scriptural reference I will cite is one referring to Jacob's son Joseph.


Genesis 37:9-10 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?


I have read an article that argues against the clear Scriptural connection with the strong imagery of Israel in the following quote from Is Mary My Mother? by Stephano Manelli (henceforth referred to as "the article")...


Of great importance, in particular, is the description of the exterior feature of the "woman", rich in a symbolism quite unusual. Clothed with the sun, Mary was really flooded by divine grace that consecrated her immaculate from conception and transformed her into the Mother of God. The moon under her feet signifies that all things created and passing - symbolized by the moon, which appears and disappears - are under the feet of the Queen of the universe. On her head a crown of twelve stars is the symbol of Mary's reign over the angels (stars), the Chosen People (the twelve tribes), over the Church (the twelve apostles).


I ask, what does being clothed with the sun mean? In the text of the article, the author cited engages in massive exegetical fraud by reading the "immaculate conception" into the passage. Far from an interpretation backed by any supportable Scriptural evidence, the author's rabid marianistic tendencies cause him to link a false doctrine to a passage that doesn't even imply or make allusion to his pet theory. But what do we see concerning the sun in Scripture? In Genesis 1 the first light created was the Glory of God. It was not the sun as some erroneously believe. The Light was created, then a firmament was created over the earth. The sun was created in the firmament to give us light. In the end, Revelation 21 and 22, the firmament will be rolled back and man will have direct contact with the light of God (see Isaiah 60:19). There will be no need for the sun. But for us now, the bright and penetrating light of the sun is used as a literary device that symbolizes the glory. For the sun to bow to Joseph in Genesis, could mean that Israel (symbolized by the actual Israel (Jacob) in Genesis) had to humble themselves (one in glory who had received the promises of God), bowing down to be saved by the one they had cast out. It is just as we have to humble ourselves to the One we have cast out, Jesus Christ. To be clothed in the sun is to be covered in the glory of God, which the faithful remnant of Israel is.
I will admit to some bewilderment as to the symbolism of the moon. What is clear is that the Scriptures do not support the symbolism that article attributes to it. Something I do see in the symbolism of the moon here is that the cycles of the moon are closely tied to certain requirements of the law, specifically requirements regarding sin offerings (see Ezekiel 45-46). The strongest sense concerning the moon underfoot of the woman who delivered the Messiah is that this is symbolic of a victory over the curse of the Law, specificaly in that the Messiah provided an atonement that did away with the requirements of the new moon sacrifices. I could be wrong. My uncertainty here has no effect on the fact that the article espouses some really weak theology. My thoughts on the woman being Israel would be supported by the idea that the symbolism represented a Remnant church who was not shackled by the requirements of the Law any longer.
The article says that the twelve stars are representative of Mary's reign over the angels. Scripture says, in 1 Peter 3:22, that the angels are subject to Jesus Christ. The word for subject here means: to subordinate; reflexively, to obey:--be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto. That would mean that Christ reigns over the angels (and the "Chosen People" and the apostles), not Mary, and nowhere (outside of Manelli's marian hysteria) is Mary attributed power over angels. His questionable interpretation of stars is, thankfully, addressed by Scripture so we can put this foolish misinterpretation to rest. Throughout Scripture, stars are used to symbolically indicate the seed of Abraham, the faithful remnant of Israel, and Christians (who are all the same entity) in numerous places: Genesis 15:5, Genesis 22:17, Genesis 26:4, Exodus 32:13, Deuteronomy 1:10, Deuteronomy 10:22, 1 Chronicles 27:23, Nehemiah 9:23, Psalm 147:4, and Hebrews 11:12. In Zechariah 9:16 the prophet says that the Remnant of Israel will be as the stones of a crown. Coupled with the fact that the stars of Genesis 37 were indisputably representative of the roots of Israel in the sons of Jacob, the imagery is too strong to refute.

I would also like to address the idea of the woman fleeing into the wilderness. The article correctly states that Mary did flee into Egypt to protect the baby Jesus from Herod's murderous rampage against the infants of Jerusalem. The article also correctly states that Jesus had been born and was Resurrected prior to the writing of Revelation. The problem comes in that the article uses this fact to exclude the idea that the flight of the woman into the wilderness could have been a later event. In an attempt to seal this conclusion, the article says that people who say the flight was a later event contradict themselves and that the Egyptian flight of Christ and His family is a direct parallel to the flight of the woman of Revelation 12. I submit that it is the article that is being inconsistent. The woman gives birth. The man-child is caught up to God (the Resurrection). Then the woman flees. Whoa! Wait a minute. Did anybody catch that? Then the woman fled. After the Resurrection. Suddenly the event of flight is no longer a parallel to Mary fleeing into Egypt since Mary fled to Egypt with Jesus and Joseph 30+ years before the Resurrection and the Revelation flight of the woman occurs after the Resurrection. Other future events in the passage, such as the Battle with Michael and the dragon and the Great Tribulation, give creedence to the fact that the passage is a mixture of past and future events. I need say nothing more. The article is wrong...there is nothing in Mary's life that correponds to the order of events in Revelation 12. The alleged parallel has been show to be quite perpendicular.
Thus, the sun, moon, and stars is a valid symbol of Israel and the flight into the wilderness is not paralleled by Matthew 2.
I would like to address the ideas expressed in the article that say that because the woman bears a son indicates that she is Mary and the false notion that Scripture does not support any reference to Israel as a woman. I will start with the following three quotes from the article.
Thus, the main feature of the woman in Revelation 12, giving birth to the Messiah, has no relevance to Israel, and its feature as 'woman' is nowhere to be found in the New or Old Testament.

A look at the Scriptures, both New and Old Testament will not find a single reference to Israel either being a 'woman', or giving birth to the Messiah.

There is no indication in Scripture anywhere that the Nation Israel gives birth to the Son who is the messiah, the central identification of Revelation 12.
The article insists on the simplistic interpretation that "woman with man-child" = "Mary". This is the result of an indolent and myopic perusal of Scripture. With a little more effort it becomes clear that such a careless examination of Scripture creates the danger of poor theology. The quotes from the author need to be addressed, as they attempt to prove that the woman of Revelation 12 cannot be Israel based on the fact that the woman bears a son, and by stating that the Scriptures do not support the reference to Israel as a woman. I will demonstrate that A) Israel is referred to as a woman in Scripture, B)The Messiah came from Israel, and C) Scripture indicates that Israel would "raise up" (or "give birth to") the Messiah.
These quotes, that Israel is not referred to as a woman or as giving birth to the Messiah anywhere in the Scriptures, show only that Manelli has not read the Scriptures. The following Scriptures clear the ignorance of this imagery.
Isaiah 13:6-8 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Here, as Isaiah speaks of the Babylonian captivity, Israel, (who is clearly the "they" in this passage) is described metaphorically as a "woman in travail".
Isaiah 54:1-8 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD. Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes; For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more. For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
Here Isaiah, clearly addressing Israel, calls Israel "barren" and says that they have not "travailed with child";. This is understood as saying that the promised Messiah had not yet come forth from them. He is reassuring them that, though He had not come, He will. He assures Israel that the LORD has called them, again metaphorically referring to Israel as "a woman".
Isaiah 66:7-14 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God. Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her: That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory. For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.
This passage, again, is referring to Israel as the woman who travailed with child, and, in fact, with a man child. Furthermore, Jerusalem, the seat of Israel, is referred to as a "her". Make note that the reader is called to rejoice with Jerusalem when they see the consolation of Jerusalem. In Luke 2:25 Simeon was described as waiting for the consolation of Israel, and that consolation is identified as Christ. Israel (specifically Jerusalem, which can be seen as the faithful remnant) is not only referred to as a woman, but as a woman delivered of a man-child. In the following passage, Christ makes a similar statement concerning His disciples who for all intents and purposes are the faithful remnant...
John 16:19-21 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me? Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
I also make note that the passage from Isaiah states that Zion has brought forth her "children" in the plural. The article attempts to say that Mary is the mother of all believers, but the "children" of Zion are the faithful remnant. So really, Zion (Israel) is the mother from which we believers are born.
But returning to Christ's words, Israel also wept and lamented, and their sorrow was turned into joy. Here Christ Himself, not speaking of the "woman in travail" as His own mother, compares His followers, who are actually the faithful remnant of Israel, to a "woman in travail" as He tells them of the sorrow they will experience as a result of His crucifixion. But as they remember Christ and realize His blessings, they will experience joy, as a woman delivered of a man-child. Just as Jerusalem rejoices in the previously cited passage from Isaiah, Christ draws the parallel to the rejoicing of His disciples. Jesus made the connection between the "woman in travail", His faithful followers (the remnant), and Himself (the "man-child"), and He did not bring Mary as an individual into the picture at all. Some may say that since she was counted a believer that she would be included and therefore mentioned, at least by implication, but this is very weak and circumstantial. Certainly not something to build a theological foundation upon.
Jeremiah speaks of a virgin, but he is not speaking of a literal woman, but instead is speaking of the young and old men of Israel, dancing with joy. In fact, the virgin imagery is used many, many times throughout Scripture to refer to the remnant of Israel, and is used to refer to the Christian church.
Jeremiah 31:1-14 At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people. Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest. The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry. Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria: the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things. For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God. For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel. Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither. They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock. For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he. Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all. Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow. And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, saith the LORD.
We have already seen that Israel (specifically the remnant of Israel) is referred to in Scripture as a "her". The nation of Israel can also be referred to in the masculine gender, and in the passage from Jeremiah 31, cited above, Israel and the remnant are referred to in both genders. The LORD says that He will build again the virgin of Israel, who shall plant crops and shall cry out to the LORD to save His people, the remnant of Israel. He will gather them from the lands in which they have been scattered and the virgin (who is referred to as a "their" and is the remnant of Israel, both young men and old together) will rejoice and dance because of the deliverance of the LORD.
Interestingly, hearkening back to part two where I address the idea of the flight into the wilderness, Jeremiah speaks of those who escaped the sword and found grace in the wilderness where God caused Israel to rest. He positively identifies those of whom he speaks as Israel. God is referred to as He that scattered Israel. This is what Revelation is speaking of when it refers to the woman's flight into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God.
Jeremiah 14:15-19 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed. And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them. Therefore thou shalt say this word unto them; Let mine eyes run down with tears night and day, and let them not cease: for the virgin daughter of my people is broken with a great breach, with a very grievous blow. If I go forth into the field, then behold the slain with the sword! and if I enter into the city, then behold them that are sick with famine! yea, both the prophet and the priest go about into a land that they know not. Hast thou utterly rejected Judah? hath thy soul lothed Zion? why hast thou smitten us, and there is no healing for us? we looked for peace, and there is no good; and for the time of healing, and behold trouble!
The people to whom the prophets prophecy are Israel. Great trouble is prophecied to come upon them. God says that He will cry for the "virgin daughter" of His people who were broken with a grievous blow. Since the passage prophecies that Israel is who will be punished for their wickedness (broken), the virgin daughter is the faithful remnant of Israel, and God is grieving because they are caught up in the punishment of the nation. As further evidence that it is the remnant being spoken of, the passage ends with a lament concerning the perceived rejection of Judah and loathing of Zion.
Jeremiah 18:11-13 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart. Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing.
God says to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem (another way of indicating the Remnant of Israel) through the prophet Jeremiah that they have done evil. In relation to this (evidenced by the linking word translated as "therefore") he says that the virgin of Israel has done a very horrible thing. Beside the fact that God is speaking of current events and Mary's dad wasn't a twinkle in her yet non-existent grand-daddy's eye, would God ever say that Mary had done a very horrible thing? Even a filthy heretic protestant like myself would not make that accusation. I won't defend the immaculate conception, but I do not attribute "horrible" things to her. I suppose a catholic would die of a massive coronary if Scripture were to say that Mary had done something "very horrible". We will both agree that the virgin in this passage does not refer to Mary. The virgin is the remnant of Israel who had then begun to stray.
Lamentations 1:15 The Lord hath trodden under foot all my mighty men in the midst of me: he hath called an assembly against me to crush my young men: the Lord hath trodden the virgin, the daughter of Judah, as in a winepress.
Once again, the people of Israel, specifically the remnant (referred to as the virgin and the daughter of Judah) is referred to in the sense of a woman. I hope that the readers are seeing that the author of the article has made an ignorant statement concerning Scripture that he was not at all qualified to make, that statement being that the nation of Israel was never referred to as a woman in all of Scripture. Not only has Israel been referred to as a woman, but as a woman who bore a man-child. But so as not to be incomplete with Scripture I will forge ahead on this tack.
Lamentations 2:5-17 The Lord was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation. And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest. The Lord hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast. The LORD hath purposed to destroy the wall of the daughter of Zion: he hath stretched out a line, he hath not withdrawn his hand from destroying: therefore he made the rampart and the wall to lament; they languished together. Her gates are sunk into the ground; he hath destroyed and broken her bars: her king and her princes are among the Gentiles: the law is no more; her prophets also find no vision from the LORD. The elders of the daughter of Zion sit upon the ground, and keep silence: they have cast up dust upon their heads; they have girded themselves with sackcloth: the virgins of Jerusalem hang down their heads to the ground. Mine eyes do fail with tears, my bowels are troubled, my liver is poured upon the earth, for the destruction of the daughter of my people; because the children and the sucklings swoon in the streets of the city. They say to their mothers, Where is corn and wine? when they swooned as the wounded in the streets of the city, when their soul was poured out into their mothers' bosom. What thing shall I take to witness for thee? what thing shall I liken to thee, O daughter of Jerusalem? what shall I equal to thee, that I may comfort thee, O virgin daughter of Zion? for thy breach is great like the sea: who can heal thee? Thy prophets have seen vain and foolish things for thee: and they have not discovered thine iniquity, to turn away thy captivity; but have seen for thee false burdens and causes of banishment. All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth? All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee: they hiss and gnash the teeth: they say, We have swallowed her up: certainly this is the day that we looked for; we have found, we have seen it. The LORD hath done that which he had devised; he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old: he hath thrown down, and hath not pitied: and he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee, he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries.
Following this passage, the LORD took vengeance upon Israel, He disciplined them for their folly. Israel is referred to as "daughter of Judah", "daughter of Zion", "virgin daughter of Zion", and speaks of Israel as "her".
Amos 5:1-3 Hear ye this word which I take up against you, even a lamentation, O house of Israel. The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel.
The prophet Amos also uses the term "virgin" to refer to the remnant of Israel.
2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Even the NT Apostle Paul, speaking to the church at Corinth, speaks of Christians as a "chaste virgin".
Now it is necessary to show that the Scripture does, in fact, indicate that the Messiah would come out of Israel. I will only cite a few verses, as they will be more than sufficient to make the point. We are painting the overwhelming picture of the woman in Revelation 12 in order to identify her by attempting to remain consistent with the rest of the witness of Scripture.
Genesis 22:15-18 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
This prophecy concerning the Messiah clearly indicates that the Messiah would be the descendant of Abraham (additionally through the son of promise, Issac). Early on in Scripture the arrow points down the path of Israel (even before the nation existed) as being the source of the Messiah. The promise was repeated in Geneis 26:3ff and Genesis 28:13ff. Interestingly, in Genesis 28 the promise was repeated by God to Jacob, a.k.a Israel, the father of the patriarchs of the twelve tribes. In case this Scripture isn't sufficient on its own, I'll gladly continue. The Scripture I will finish this section with will utterly destroy the notion that God's word says nothing about the Messiah coming from Israel
Acts 2:29-30 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
God's word also says that Christ, the Messiah, came from the fruit of David's loins. Can't get much more Jewish than that. If that isn't being from Israel, I would love to see someone explain what nation the Messiah is from. If that is not good enough, I'll cut to the chase and cite my closing Scripture of this section.
Deuteronomy 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Moses, speaking to Israel says not once but twice that the Prophet (who we know from Acts 3:22-26 to be the Messiah) would be raised up from the midst of them, one of their Israelite brethren. Scripture certainly does support the idea that the Messiah was raised up from the nation of Israel ("raised up" being a common term for "birth", as in the Levitical law that a man "raise up" children for a deceased brother)
In closing, the travail of the people of Israel all throughout the Old Testament was part of the coming of (or of their "giving birth" to) the Messiah. Interestingly, it parallels the imagery of the travail of a woman in Revelation 12 in bringing the Messiah into the world.
Revelation 1:1 states:
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Reading on, we can understand the purpose as being to show (and thereby encourage) Christ's heavily persecuted servants what would come to pass concerning God's plan and His victory over Satan on behalf of His people.
Revelation 12, continuing this theme, shows God fulfilling His promise to bring the Messiah out of Israel, resulting ultimately in the defeat of Satan and the Messiah taking His place as the One who would reign forever as the descendant King promised to David. It is all about what God has done and will do through His people and for His people. The idea that the woman is Israel is both entirely consistent with the rest of Scripture and it enjoys extensive precedent throughout.
By - John DeVito

 2007/7/31 16:35
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

Katy-did wrote:
We, and many do believe that the apostate Catholic Church will be very much a part of the Harlot..who rides the beast.

The Harlot is unrepentant Israel.

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. (Ref. Rev 12:3, Rev 13:1)

Who was last seenh in the wilderness?
Rev 12:6,14

Rev17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: (Ref Exo 28:5-9 and 39:1-29
Jer 4:30-31, 1Thes 2:15.

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Ref. Isa 1:21

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. (Ref Mat 23:34-37, Luk 11:47-51, Act 7:58-60.

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which you saw upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. ref:Eze 16:37-41

Rev 18:2 And he cried in a strong, great voice, saying, Babylon the great has fallen! It has fallen, and it has become a dwelling-place of demons, and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. (Ref. Mat 12:43-45

Rev 18:8 Because of this, in one day her plagues shall come: death, and mourning, and famine; and she will be consumed with fire, for the Lord God judging her is strong. Ref. Amos 9:9

Rev 18:16 and saying, Woe! Woe to the great city having been clothed in linen and purple and scarlet, and having been gilded and decked with gold and precious stone, and pearls! (Ref Exo 28:8-9, Jer 4:30-31

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all the ones having been slain on the earth.(Ref Mat 23:34-37

 2007/7/31 19:56Profile









 Re:

I will throw my two bits in this and see where this goes.

Of course most of you know that I hold a preterist view point, meaning that everything that pertaineth the Revelations and all the prophecies are fulfilled. (blah blah blah, right?) :-P

The 144,000 is the Remnant that was being saved in the first century.

And logic you are correct in saying that unbelieving Israel is the harlot that rides the beast, Rome of the past.

 2007/7/31 21:09
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 i saw your point

sis K-D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.


Quote:
Ironman, I have been quickened to the Truth, and had hoped to share this truth with you. As I have declared before, Mary being the Woman in Genesis and Revelation is a Catholic belief. We, and many do believe that the apostate Catholic Church will be very much a part of the Harlot..who rides the beast. Even among Catholics many believe this,so I'm not calling names. This Marion worship will be a major part of it, unless you are a part of the promotion of the Marion Worship, which I don't believe you are, but just don't know the implications of what you are saying...or are not saying...just to get along.???? It is my prayer that the Lord will Quicken you to these truths, as He has so many others.



sis, i see your point, i saw your point, God showed me through people on these boards and beyond that the woman of Rev 12 is Israel. The woman has a crown of 12 stars which are the 12 tribes, she is clothed with the sun, the sun in Joseph's dream was Jacob, the moon is at her feet and this moon is the mother of Joseph.

i say again, i believe that the woman in Genesis whose seed will bruise the enemy is Eve, that is the immediate context because she was the only woman on earth at the time God said this. However there is a broader context which includes Mary in a very real sense since Christ is her child in that she gave Him birth. We can't ignore that. i say again also [i][b]that i do NOT in any way shape or form worship Mary nor support such[/b][/i] i was saved out of Catholicism. However it was where i first heard of our Lord and even some of what i learned there about God remains with me because after years of pressing into God He has verified those things to which i still hold to be True. i am not arguing that the woman in Rev 12 isn't Israel, i agree totally, but there is a broader context to which you have yet to be quickened and that's cool. sure the catholic church is the harlot riding on the beast, however, it is not solely Catholicism which has killed prophets and saints, but other religions also. Catholicism has most likely killed many more than the others though giving it a prominent place in in terms of apostasy.

again, no i do not promote Marion worship nor have i said what i have to try and "get along" with anyone. i assure you God in His Mercy has given me great Zeal for Him such that i am Jealous over Him and the Faith to contend for it as He gives me Grace. Dear sister, the enemy doesn't invent anything new, he simply perverts the Truth. That Catholics believe Mary is the woman in Gen 3 and Rev 1 says that there is a Truth there. However, Catholics have been fooled by the enemy into believing that Mary is now a co-redemptress or queen of heaven (there is no such thing in scripture) based on that, which is a gross perversion of the Original Truth. i do not ascribe to the Catholic view of this at all. Mary is not a co-redemptress nor is she queen of heaven, nor do i worship her nor condone such worship. If they don't repent of the idea that Mary is to be worshipped or given more reverence than she ought to be, their blood be on their heads. May God have Mercy and loose those bonds and may God Damn that heresy and he who spawned it.AMEN.

sis K-D, i see your point and there is Truth there. however i have been quickened to a much broader context of those scriptures; not just those ones but scripture in general. God is Infinite, better yet, He is Infinity, His word is Infinite and like Him too is Infinity. We can't comprehend the scope of the Context of scripture any more fully than we can comprehend Him fully. Doesn't the word say His ways are higher than our own ways or that His Wisdom is Manifold? Doesn't Paul extol God's Greatness by saying "oh the depth of the Wisdom and Knowledge of God, who has been His counselor? When Job thought he had God figuired out, how many of the 80 or so questions God asked him could he answer?

sis i don't claim to have the whole Truth, i know who does though and the Truth is far beyond the scope of what we can perceive...by His Grace i have enough understanding of that to be open to Him showing me the 360 ways each verse could be rendered. This is how the word remains timeless, the context is Eternal. i believe that there is far more to Gen 3:15 and Rev 12 and those women than we can deduce on this side...thank God we have Eternity to dig into these Mysteries! i'm off to delve into them...coming?


Quote:
Of great importance, in particular, is the description of the exterior feature of the "woman", rich in a symbolism quite unusual. Clothed with the sun, Mary was really flooded by divine grace that consecrated her immaculate from conception and transformed her into the Mother of God. The moon under her feet signifies that all things created and passing - symbolized by the moon, which appears and disappears - are under the feet of the Queen of the universe. On her head a crown of twelve stars is the symbol of Mary's reign over the angels (stars), the Chosen People (the twelve tribes), over the Church (the twelve apostles).



the matter of Mary being queen of the universe and the idea of her ruling in this manner...Satanic heresy, the perversion of the Truth that Israel is depicted here as being the mother (i guess) of the Messiah and Mary being His mother in that she carried Him to term and gave birth to Him and raised Him. it's not that the woman is Either Israel or Mary only, the woman is both of them.

Quote:
The article insists on the simplistic interpretation that "woman with man-child" = "Mary". This is the result of an indolent and myopic perusal of Scripture. With a little more effort it becomes clear that such a careless examination of Scripture creates the danger of poor theology.



Well lest we ourselves be deceived, we had better not be indolent and myopic ourselves in studying the word of GOd. The interpretation is simple enough. Israel as bro DeVito pointed out is called a woman many times over in the word so the woman is Israel. however more specifically in Israel there was one woman who carried the MEssiah and that was Mary. We can't ignore that or exclude it because Catholicism has perverted this. Instead we must put this Truth into its proper Perspective.

Once more sis, i receive what you are saying and have received it with gladness. i hope you can see that there is a broader context to scripture than you or i perceive which needs our consideration.

Grace and Peace be ours in JEsus' Name. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/8/1 2:04Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Unrepentant Israel the Harlot?

bro Logic

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Quote:
The Harlot is unrepentant Israel.



i don't think so and i believe the scriptures testify against what you have stated here.

Quote:
Who was last seenh in the wilderness?



indeed Israel fled into the wilderness, but to a place prepared for her of God where she would be nourished for 3.5 yrs. She arrived at that place and was fed for that period and tended to giving her no time to come out of hiding and play the harlot.

Quote:
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.



ok now we see the woman escapes the dragon and she is nourished for the remainder of the tribulation away from the serpent meaning she had no further contact with him let alone going about riding on the beast's back.

Quote:
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. 18



now this woman can't be unrepentant because if we examine her seed, we see that they keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Christ which means she must keep those same commandments and testimony of Christ, nobody can do that except God gives Grace.

Quote:
Who was last seenh in the wilderness?



bro, sure the woman clothed in the sun was last seen in the wilderness but i think it is a great stretch, a very dangerous one to say that the woman who just gave birth to the Messiah and is fleeing for her life becomes the harlot...especially after being persecuted so much she needed to great wings to escape...

in Rev 17 the harlot who "sits over many waters" is clearly Rome. sitting over many waters refers to ruling over many people and tribes. There are more people influenced by Catholicism than there are Judaism. Catholicism had had far more dealings with the kings of the earth than Judaism. The woman sits on this beast which has 7 heads which are 7 hills, Jerusalem (if we assume this harlot to be ISrael) doesn't sit on 7 hills, but Rome does so whoever this harlot is, she is closely tied into Rome...Israel and Rome, or Jews and Catholics have a rather long standing beef, the inquisition...of course you know also that during this period, many Christians were martyred because they would not ally themselves with Rome hence this harlot is drunk with the blood of the saints of Jesus.

i believe in this matter dear brother Logic that you are in error. The testimony of scripture seems to refute your position and gives credance to another view altogether. Israel can' be the harlot, she has given birth to the MEssiah and been persecuted and escaped that and was hidden in a place prepared for her to hide and be nourished. a place so secure that the enemy had to go and persecute her seed because he couldn't get to her. Also the fact that her seed keeps the commandments and testifies to Christ says that she does also.

then again maybe it is i who is in error if so may our Lord correct me because He knows i'm not trying to be lost like that...Also if it is you in error, i pray he straighten you out also because Lord knows i don't want you to be deceived in this matter, or any other.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/8/1 2:32Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 to bro Compliments

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.


Quote:
Of course most of you know that I hold a preterist view point, meaning that everything that pertaineth the Revelations and all the prophecies are fulfilled. (blah blah blah, right?)



you know bro, you have some idea of what is going on in terms of the fulfilment of things but you don't see it seems that there is a broader context here. There seems to me to be in the word sciptures which speak of the future which are fulfilled partially and later fulfilled in full and the Revelation is like that to a degree. some things have yet to be fulfilled such as Christ ruling from Jerusalem from the throne of His father David. When did that happen. even His return in the clouds which was said to be such that all men will see Him, when in history has there ever been such an event. i think a part of that mentality may have to do with our desire to escape or not think about or otherwise deal with the reality of the coming tribulation. We jump through all manner of hoops and make up shaky theologies to make it so the tribulation doesn't happen while we are here be it pre-trib rapture or preterism. This sort of thinking will leave us as sitting ducks when things hit the fan and the drama jumps off.

Quote:
And logic you are correct in saying that unbelieving Israel is the harlot that rides the beast, Rome of the past.



bro Compliments are you sure of this? Israel being the harlot which rides on the beast of Rome? Was Rome not the overlord of Israel for many many yrs? did Rome not sack Jerusalem in 70 AD and burn the temple leaving a bitterness in the mouth of the Jew such that there could never be s cozy relationship of the kind we see between the beast and the harlot? When was Israel ever so close to Rome? i would like to know because it seems to me Rome persecuted Israel terribly and such persecution fostered a deep hatred for Rome which could not have espoused Israel sitting on the beast of Rome. besides there are some other attributes which simply don't fit Israel. The harlot made kings drunk with her wine, she had influence with the men of the earth, Judasim hasn't enjoyed such influence...Rome and catholicism have though...

anyhow i could be wrong and if i am, may God straighten me out. if it is you, then God straighten you out.

Grace and PEace be ours in Jesus' Name.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/8/1 2:46Profile









 Re: Another WOMAN!!!

Revelation 17:4-6

4And the woman was arrayed in PURPLE and SCARLET colour, and decked with GOLD and precious stones and pearls, having a GOLDen cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Nothing so describes the Catholic Church as this. When looking at the OT and the Priests attire, you see what?
Can you tell what is missing? Ans: the BLUE. BLUE represents HEAVENLY, which is the CHURCH. We, the Body of Christ, Predestined to be conformed to His Image have a Heavenly Calling. We have ONE HEAD, Jesus Christ, Who is Head of the Church, not the POPE or the Catholic Church.
Yet we know the Catholic Church has murdered more Christians and Jews over the centuries…why, because the Catholic Church felt/feels THEY were/are the HEAD, and Not Christ. And we know the story now of all the filth and fornication of that earthly imposter, not story after story after story. And not only so, someone is parading around as the VICAR of Christ.WOOH!

VICAR:
1: one serving as a substitute or agent
There is no such thing as a substitute of Jesus Christ…… and the Body of Christ holds to the *Head of Christ ONLY*, not to the head of any earthly self proclaimed Vicar.

And NO JEW, even apostate Israel has ever made such a claim of themselves.

But Apostate Christianity has, and this is what the Pope claims for himself.....the VICAR of Christ..

Jesus Christ needs NO VICAR.

Therefore, Israel IS NOT the Harlot, but Apostate Christianity, riding on the backs of political powers, called Dominion Theology, Reconstruction, Replacement Theology, that all began with the Catholic Church, and now has incorporated so much more believing we are to tame the world **forcing** righteousness upon it before Jesus Christ can come. Has this not always been the reason behind inquisitions??? Oh Yes indeed!!!

Jesus’s Church, His Body,those justified by faith who have have been baptized into His Body by the Holy Spirit have been (AS WE SPEAK) translated out of this world into the Kingdom of His Dear Son. We will return with Jesus Christ to reign and rule with him when He takes the Throne of David, fulfilling those promises to Earthly Israel.

In the OT, Everything in the Tabernacle was a picture of Jesus Christ, made with hands, and made after a pattern God gave to Moses…

Hebrews 8:5
Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Hebrews 9:23
It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

*******First the pattern, then came the Real…Jesus Christ, who was the Better Sacrifice.
Here is the pattern:


Exodus 25:4
And BLUE, and PURPLE, and SCARLET, and fine linen, and goats' hair,

Exodus 26:1
Moreover thou shalt make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen, and BLUE, and PURPLE, and SCARLET: with cherubims of cunning work shalt thou make them.

Exodus 26:31
And thou shalt make a vail of BLUE, and PURPLE, and SCARLET, and fine twined linen of cunning work: with cherubims shall it be made:

Exodus 26:36
And thou shalt make an hanging for the door of the tent, of BLUE, and PURPLE, and SCARLET, and fine twined linen, wrought with needlework.

Exodus 27:16
And for the gate of the court shall be an hanging of twenty cubits, of BLUE, and PURPLE, and SCARLET, and fine twined linen, wrought with needlework: and their pillars shall be four, and their sockets four.

Exodus 28:5
And they shall take GOLD, and BLUE, and PURPLE, and SCARLET, and fine linen.

Exodus 28:6
And they shall make the ephod of GOLD, of BLUE, and of PURPLE, of SCARLET, and fine twined linen, with cunning work.

Exodus 28:8
And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of GOLD, of BLUE, and PURPLE, and SCARLET, and fine twined linen.

Exodus 28:15
And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of GOLD, of BLUE, and of PURPLE, and of SCARLET, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.

Exodus 28:33
And beneath upon the hem of it thou shalt make pomegranates of BLUE, and of PURPLE, and of SCARLET, round about the hem thereof; and bells of GOLD between them round about:

Exodus 35:6
And BLUE, and PURPLE, and SCARLET, and fine linen, and goats' hair.

Exodus 35:23
And every man, with whom was found BLUE, and PURPLE, and SCARLET, and fine linen, and goats' hair, and red skins of rams, and badgers' skins, brought them.

Exodus 35:25
And all the women that were wise hearted did spin with their hands, and brought that which they had spun, both of BLUE, and of PURPLE, and of SCARLET, and of fine linen.

Exodus 35:35
Them hath he filled with wisdom of heart, to work all manner of work, of the engraver, and of the cunning workman, and of the embroiderer, in BLUE, and in PURPLE, in SCARLET, and in fine linen, and of the weaver, even of them that do any work, and of those that devise cunning work.

Exodus 36:8
And every wise hearted man among them that wrought the work of the tabernacle made ten curtains of fine twined linen, and BLUE, and PURPLE, and SCARLET: with cherubims of cunning work made he them.

Exodus 36:35
And he made a vail of BLUE, and PURPLE, and SCARLET, and fine twined linen: with cherubims made he it of cunning work.

Exodus 36:37
And he made an hanging for the tabernacle door of BLUE, and PURPLE, and SCARLET, and fine twined linen, of needlework;

Exodus 38:18
And the hanging for the gate of the court was needlework, of BLUE, and PURPLE, and SCARLET, and fine twined linen: and twenty cubits was the length, and the height in the breadth was five cubits, answerable to the hangings of the court.

Exodus 39:1
And of the BLUE, and PURPLE, and SCARLET, they made cloths of service, to do service in the holy place, and made the holy garments for Aaron; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Exodus 39:2
And he made the ephod of GOLD, BLUE, and PURPLE, and SCARLET, and fine twined linen.

Exodus 39:3
And they did beat the GOLD into thin plates, and cut it into wires, to work it in the BLUE, and in the PURPLE, and in the SCARLET, and in the fine linen, with cunning work.

Exodus 39:5
And the curious girdle of his ephod, that was upon it, was of the same, according to the work thereof; of GOLD, BLUE, and PURPLE, and SCARLET, and fine twined linen; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Exodus 39:8
And he made the breastplate of cunning work, like the work of the ephod; of GOLD, BLUE, and PURPLE, and SCARLET, and fine twined linen.

Exodus 39:24
And they made upon the hems of the robe pomegranates of BLUE, and PURPLE, and SCARLET, and twined linen.

Exodus 39:29
And a girdle of fine twined linen, and BLUE, and PURPLE, and SCARLET, of needlework; as the LORD commanded Moses.


Love in Christ
Katy-did

PS: So many going Home to Rome today without realizing what the final end of that will be...

 2007/8/2 9:12
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Unrepentant Israel the Harlot?

Quote:
IRONMAN wrote:
Quote:
The Harlot is unrepentant Israel.

i don't think so and i believe the scriptures testify against what you have stated here.

I gave plenty of back up scripture to testify for thyis to be true.

Quote:
IRONMAN wrote:
Quote:
Who was last seenh in the wilderness?

indeed Israel fled into the wilderness, but to a place prepared for her of God where she would be nourished for 3.5 yrs.
She arrived at that place and was fed for that period and tended to giving her no time to come out of hiding and play the harlot.

Not "come out of hiding", but became the harlot while in the wilderness.

Quote:
IRONMAN wrote:
Quote:
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

ok now we see the woman escapes the dragon and she is nourished for the remainder of the yribulation away from the serpent meaning she had no further contact with him let alone going about riding on the beast's back.

Rev 12:6 & Rev 12:14 are the same instance, only difrent given as a marker of events.

Rev 12:1-6 are one event and Rev 12:7-14 are one event inside verse 5.
Notice the word "they" in verse 6?
The word "they" is fefering to the Nations in verse 5 that Jesus was to rule with a rod of iron.

Quote:
IRONMAN wrote:
Quote:
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. 18

now this woman can't be unrepentant because if we examine her seed, we see that they keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Christ which means she must keep those same commandments and testimony of Christ, nobody can do that except God gives Grace.


the remnant of her offspring is the Church, because we keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, not Israel.

Quote:
IRONMAN wrote:
Quote:
Who was last seenh in the wilderness?

bro, sure the woman clothed in the sun was last seen in the wilderness but i think it is a great stretch, a very dangerous one to say that the woman who just gave birth to the Messiah and is fleeing for her life becomes the harlot...especially after being persecuted so much she needed to great wings to escape...

Who is called a harlot all through the Bible?
Interpret the Bible with the Bible, and you will se that unrepentant Israel is always called a harlot.
Read Hosea.

Quote:
IRONMAN wrote:
in Rev 17 the harlot who "sits over many waters" is clearly Rome.
Sitting over many waters refers to ruling over many people and tribes.

There are more people influenced by Catholicism than there are Judaism.


God is dealing with Israel, not Rome. Rome is not married to any one, but Israel is(was) married to God. After the Church and true Israel is raptured, all that is left is the whore.

Quote:
IRONMAN wrote:
The woman sits on this beast which has 7 heads which are 7 hills, Jerusalem (if we assume this harlot to be ISrael) doesn't sit on 7 hills, but Rome does so whoever this harlot is, she is closely tied into Rome

If you want to make the Mt.s literal Mt.s Concider that Rome is not the only city that has 7 Mt.s Many cities have Mt.s
[b]Rev 17:9[/b] [color=990000]And here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits.[/color]
Note: There are really only a few choices that the seven mountains could be Babylon, Rome, or Jerusalem. I'd like to suggest that it Jerusalem If you want to make the Mt.s literal Mt.s
The Seven Mountains are:
1) Scopus
2) Nob
3) "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence"
4) True Mount Zion, the Southeast hill
5) Ophel Mount
6) Fort Antonia
7) the Southwest hill or "old Mount Zion"
Or these:
1.) Mount Gared
2.) Mount Goath
3.) Mount Acra
4.) Mount Bezetha
5.) Mount Moriah
6.) Mount Ophel
7.) Mount Zion

mountains, however, are Kingdoms as Babylon is in this verse and God's Kingdoms is in the one after it.

[b]Jer 51:25[/b] [color=990000]Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, says the LORD, who destroy all the earth: and I will stretch out my hand upon you, and roll you down from the rocks, and will make you a burnt mountain.[/color]


[b]Dan 2:35[/b] [color=990000]Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that no place was found for them: and the stone that struck the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.[/color]

 2007/8/2 10:35Profile





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