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IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sis K-D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.


Quote:
Defiled with woman …doesn’t say “A “Woman.



it doesn't say defiled with "woman" but "women"

anyhow i think you are on to something here about what sort of defilement is being spoken of here. i hadn't seen this in the light which you brought up so i thank God for the beauty and utility of fellowship. There is an element of spiritual adultery which you alluded to by bringing up the harlot. Indeed we are to refrain from spiritual adultery. i think the defilement of the marriage bed has to do with the physical adultery which we are to also refrain from. This includes lusting after a woman also...how many of us men can say we're not guilty of adultery...?i know and confess that i am guilty, but i praise God for the Cross which is my Redemption. AMEN.

i think though that the implication here is that these are men which are Redeemed from among the men of the earth for a specific task. Yes indeed we follow the Lamb or we don't but that they are firstfruits says something is unique about this group. That they are numbered as being 144000 and sing a song which only they and the Lamb know says to me it is not a song for every saint. There are distinctions in Heaven based on Service and this is one. Other examples are that not everyone will wear the martyr's crown, not everyone will eat of the hidden manna etc.

Sure there is nowhere where men are called virgins...well except in this section of scripture. There are probably other instances of things which happen once in the word but in that case i would take the word at face value except God reveals otherwise.

i could well be wrong and if so i pray God correct me lest others be deceived on account of my own foolishness. AMEN.

Grace and PEace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/7/27 14:14Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Who are these that are sealed? 2Cr 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

These are not the 144,000, of the 12 tribes. These are the son's of God, and possibly the 144,000 who are virgins by the Christ in them and their Teacher's seal already on them. These are heavenly, already birthed son's of God.

These are different. These are earthly.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.

These are Israel evangelists, prophets and teachers of the earth. These will evangelize the world in the millennium as The promise fulfilled to Israel His Chosen people.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/7/27 16:29Profile









 Re:

Quote:
it doesn't say defiled with "woman" but "women"



Ironman,
STRONGS Woman....Women all #1135. Now think about it...all it would take is ONE (1) womAn, not several WOMEN (if you prefer the plural), to lose one's virginity. Also, scripture teaches scripture, and nowhere does God use or say men are virgins. All scripture will have 2 or 3 to be a witness to or back up. If you can't find it, then wait until the Lord reveals the scripture. When WE try to force what isn't there we get way off coarse.

Also the "Woman" who rides the Beast...That "woman" Jezebel, are all the same Greek word gune. We just need to put on the mind of Christ, and He will enlighten.

You know, just think about putting together a 1,000 piece zig-saw puzzle. How many pieces look alike, and how many (if you've ever done one), have you tried to force...that was off, ever so slightly, but you could get it to fit with a little force. Well, in the end, you have many pieces left over,.....why? the obvious!!!


God's Word fits together PERFECTLY, to those who sit at His feet and learn from Him.



Quote:
i think the defilement of the marriage bed has to do with the physical adultery which we are to also refrain from.



Ironman, God said the marriage bed is NOT defiled. God created women to be the Glory of the Man. Woman was taken from the man's rib. God blessed marriage and sexual intimacy in marriage...there is nothing defiling about it. A married faithful man who had not defiled his own marriage bed IS NOT A VIRGIN anyway.

Love in Christ
Katy-did ;-)

 2007/7/28 8:20









 Re:

LET'S STUDY *FIRST FRUITS*


Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the FIRSTFRUITS of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Romans 16:5
Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the FIRSTFRUITS of Achaia unto Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUITS of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the FIRSTFRUITS; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 16:15
I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the FIRSTFRUITS of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

Revelation 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb.


By Prof.M.M.Ninan


YHVH spoke to Moses, saying, 'Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: 'When you come into the land which I give to you, and reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the FIRST FRUITS of your harvest to the priest. He shall wave the sheaf before YHVH, to be accepted on your behalf; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it" Leviticus 23:9-11.

This regulation for the FIRST FRUITS are common for all types of harvest. However the First Day (Sunday) following the Pesach was a special day when the FIRST FRUITS of Barley was presented in the temple. When the barley is ready to be reaped which fell during this period, one sheaf from the standing harvest is cut with a sickle and is brought to the priest. The priest was then to take this sheaf and wave it before the Lord in the Temple. This was to be done "the day after the sabbath." i.e on the Sunday following the Passover. Among the Malankara Syrian Christians, the sheaf is tied in a bundle and is hung in front of the granary. Prescribed offerings and sacrifices were also to be presented along with the sheaf. The Hebrew word for "sheaf" is omer. An omer is defined as "a measure of dry things, containing a tenth part of an ephah." The definition of an omer being a tenth part of an ephah is found in Exodus 16:36. An ephah contains 10 omers of grain. Thus along with the sheaf one omer full of the grain was also presented at the temple.

All FIRST FRUITS are Holy

The Children of Israel clearly understood the meaning of this feast and that which were the FIRST FRUITS of their labour. It spoke of the FIRST FRUITS of the harvest and of the firstborn of both man and beast. The FIRST FRUITS were considered the choicest. The FIRST FRUITS were holy unto the Lord. The firstborn of both man and beast were sanctified and presented to the Lord (Exodus 13:2 ;11-13, 22:29). Thus all the firstborn were to be dedicated to the Lord. They were to be the Priests. (These were redeemed by delegating the priesthood to Levites) . Even today in every Christian family, the eldest son was to beome an evangelist. The FIRST FRUITS of the earth were to be presented to the Lord in praise and thanksgiving. At times they were also presented to the priests and the Levites (Lev. 19:23-25. Neh 10:34-39). All the FIRST FRUITS belonged to God for they were holy.

This feast always occurred on the 1st day of the week i.e . on Sunday. The feast portrays evidently the resurrection of Jesus. FIRST FRUITS prophetically speaks of the resurrection of the Jesus from the dead. He rose again defeating death on the first day of the week. That "one sheaf" represented the whole harvest. It was the prelude and the guarantee of a plentiful harvest to follow.

The Seventeenth of Nisan
The theme of the festival of FIRST FRUITS is resurrection and salvation. There are several important events that happened on this day in the Bible.

On this day Noah's ark rests on Mount Ararat (Gen. 8:4). It was the beginning of the new man giving man another chance with a clean slate.

Joseph in a dream saw eleven sheaves bow down before his sheaf. The interpretation is clear, as it showed that his eleven brothers would bow down before him (Genesis 37:5-11). Joseph is a type of sufferring servant, the Mesiah. Like Joseph, Jesus was rejected by his brothers and was later brought to glory because he maintained a righteous life. The Jews were indeed expecting a mesiah Mesia-Ben-Yusuf (son of Joseph) Just as the sheaf of Joseph stood up and all the eleven bowed down before it, the first fruit Jesus is glorified

Israel crosses the Red Sea (Ex. 3:18; 5:3; 14). This day Israel received a new chance to live a free life.


Israel eats the FIRST FRUITS of the Promised Land (Joshua 5:10-12). The manna that God gave from Heaven during the days in the wilderness ceased on the sixteenth day of Nisan after the people ate of the corn of the land. The day following was the seventeenth of Nisan, the day when the children of Israel ate the FIRST FRUITS of the Promised Land. Manna was the food for the journey, but on entering the Promised Land the temperary food stopped and the permanent residence and provisions take effect for all believers. Again this was a new start in a new land with all the privileges thereof.

In Psalm 126, which is a Song of the degrees we see the significance more clearly. Song of degrees are songs sung as the FIRST FRUITS were carried to the temple - as the believers went up the steps of the temple one by one carrying the first fruits. This is a prophetic Psalm. " A song of ascents. When the LORD brought back the captives to Zion, we were like men who dreamed. Our mouths were filled with laughter, our tongues with songs of joy. Then it was said among the nations, "The LORD has done great things for them." The LORD has done great things for us, and we are filled with joy. Restore our fortunes, O LORD, like streams in the Negev. Those who sow in tears will reap with songs of joy. He who goes out weeping, carrying seed to sow, will return with songs of joy, carrying sheaves with him"

In His first advent, Jesus went forth weeping bearing precious seed on the streets of Jerusalem. At the Second Coming, He will come with rejoicing at the time of the great harvest, bringing His sheaves with Him. He will then take up his seat on the throne of Israel.


It also speaks of the final harvest when the elect will be taken to his presence Mathew 13 :37-43 describes it: "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. ….. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. .. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.


Haman was defeated on this day(Esther 3:1-6). A decree was sent out on the thirteenth of (On the day when the Passover lamb was to be killed) that all the Jews would be killed (Es, 3:12). Upon hearing this news, Esther ( who is a type of Jesus) proclaims a three-day fast, which would be Nisan 14-16 (Esther 4:16). On the sixteenth of Nisan, Esther risked her life when she came to King Ahasuerus thereby saved the elect. This was on the sixteenth day of Nisan. On the seventeenth of Nisan Haman was hanged.


Jesus is the firstborn of Mary (Matthew 1:23-25).

Jesus is the first-begotten of God the Father (Hebrews 1:6).

Jesus is the firstborn of every creature (Colossians 1:15).

Jesus is the first-begotten from the dead (Revelation 1:5).

Jesus is the firstborn of many brethren (Romans 8:29).

Jesus is the FIRST FRUITS of the resurrected ones (1 Corinthians 15:20,23).

Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God (Revelation 3:14).

Jesus is the preeminent One (Colossians 1:18).

Jesus is indeed the Most Holy One of God and is sanctified by the Father.

Jesus is the first, the choicest, the preeminent One. He is both the firstborn of God and the FIRST FRUITS unto God.

Jesus is the sheaf of the first fruits.
On that day Jesus resurrected from the dead and went up to His Father and presented himself as the first fruit of all New Creation Man (John 12:24; 1 Cor 15:16-20). He told Mary not to hang on to him because he has to present himself before the Father first before declaring the harvest season open.

Jesus celebrated the festival of FIRST FRUITS by offering Himself as the FIRST FRUITS of all generations of believers (Mat. 27:52-53).


"But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the FIRST FRUITS of those who have fallen asleep" 1Cor 15:20. This feast also represents the resurrection of the believer. "But now is risen from the dead, and has become the FIRST FRUITS of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: the FIRST FRUITS, afterward those who are the ’s at His coming" 1Corinthians 15:20-23.


Love in Christ
Katy-did

 2007/7/28 9:32
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sis K-D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

Quote:
STRONGS Woman....Women all #1135. Now think about it...all it would take is ONE (1) womAn, not several WOMEN (if you prefer the plural), to lose one's virginity. Also, scripture teaches scripture, and nowhere does God use or say men are virgins. All scripture will have 2 or 3 to be a witness to or back up. If you can't find it, then wait until the Lord reveals the scripture. When WE try to force what isn't there we get way off coarse.



oh ok so it is the same word used for woman and women is it? i didn't know that thanks sis. i went and looked up what other alternate meanings/applications there are for that word and the list is quite interesting...that word "gune" is used for:

a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow.

a wife
of a betrothed woman

so this makes this verse quite interesting. to me if we look at it in terms of the physical, only a man could fit this role. sure one only needs one woman to lose his virginity but one could do so with many also. Sure nowhere else are men called virgins but unless (well physically anyway) the word is talking about women defiling themselves with women (which is plausible also) to me this speaks about men. i don't believe i am forcing anything here, just taking the word at face value because i have no reason to take it any other way because our Lord hasn't given me much reason to as yet. i will say though that this back and forth with you has opened up some things which i would not have otherwise seen.

Quote:
Also the "Woman" who rides the Beast...That "woman" Jezebel, are all the same Greek word gune. We just need to put on the mind of Christ, and He will enlighten.



i agree with this that there is a spiritual component to this but i am wondering if there is not also a physical one also. If the word gune has been used for wife, widow and so on could it be that there is an element defilement in that? now i am not saying that the marriage bed is defiled at all in the sense which immediately comes to mind. The marriage bed is undefiled except there is infidelity and we know infidelity need not be physical but can even be in the heart. i think though defilement here could be that when one gets married, there are sometimes instances wherein one is divided on whom to serve, God or wife. i say this because i myself am married and there have been occasions where i feel led to pray but then my wife is in need of something and i must do one or the other. Marriage is an interesting thing. i find though that the closer God draws me to Him, the more understanding my wife is of the things which God would have me do sometimes. then also the defilement could mean illicit sexual interaction with women in a literal sense...i guess this could be men and women after all in this group... :-) anyhow defilement also speaks of sin as well as sex too so there is an interesting dynamic here. i am seeing more and more than i could have without this discussion...this is cool...

Quote:
Ironman, God said the marriage bed is NOT defiled. God created women to be the Glory of the Man. Woman was taken from the man's rib. God blessed marriage and sexual intimacy in marriage...there is nothing defiling about it.



which is exactly what i said initially that defiling the marriage bed has to do with adultery. being intimate in marriage is a blessed thing though that can end up being an idol itself and could defile it...

Quote:
A married faithful man who had not defiled his own marriage bed IS NOT A VIRGIN anyway.



oh snap...after all that i have discovered something key...with a daughter and a son on the way, i guess i'm not going to be counted with this crew... :-P He who finds a wife does find a good thing.

Grace and PEace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/7/28 18:24Profile









 Re:

Quote:
oh snap...after all that i have discovered something key...with a daughter and a son on the way, i guess i'm not going to be counted with this crew... He who finds a wife does find a good thing.



Ironman, TOOOO funny!

Here are some other interesting verses about Woman, Women.
The Woman in Genesis 3:15 is Israel, the Woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. However the Catholic Church wants to apply that to Mary ...*literally*, and it produces more problems than you think. Because of their translation we have Mary as co-redemptress, Mary, Mother of God, Mary who they say IS the ark of the Covenant , and more that will cause you to slap your knee and bang your head on your keyboard.

Clue..Women don't have "seed" they have eggs!!! Go figure, but in the OT Israel is the Wife of God. Her seed, Israel, is the seed of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah to David...the seed of David, which came through Mary, Mary being herself a seed of the Line of Judah and the house of David, but the SEED is Christ, and the *HER* in Genesis 3:15 is Israel.

Also in Revelations 12, Mary is not the mother of the 12 tribes of Israel, or the Mother of the 12 Apostles. The Sun, moon and 12 stars refer to Joseph's dream in Genesis. See how all scripture fits together, and how scripture teaches scripture?

So even with the word Woman, Women etc, we need to be very careful how we divide those truths.

Love in Christ
Katy-did ;-)


PS: I need to add this. Because the Catholic Church believes Mary to be Genesis 3:15 and Rev 12, and because Mary is now an ICON with many false religions, Even Islam believes in Mary, and the moon under her feet (the Moon is an ICON for the Islam faith....you see it on top of all their churches,) as well as Fatima being Mohammad’s daughters name, you have "our Lady of Fatima, of which the Pope when leaning over to kiss this statue missed a bullet, saving his life, ...sometime within this time period makes a secret Covenant with Arafat during the year 2000.

That is on line in many links to read as well as teh Catholic Archives........

Just a little heads up. You can find all these facts on line, in papers and in the Catholic News and archives.

God Bless!

 2007/7/29 9:27
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Women...

sis K-D
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.


Quote:
The Woman in Genesis 3:15 is Israel,



i don't think that necessarily this is limited to Israel. The pronouncement seems to speak of a beef between men and the devil which began after that point even before ISrael existed. We know the devil hated men before men even knew of him. Adam and Eve didn't know about Lucifer but after he duped them, you best believe they were hot...the emnity i believe began with Eve's own children and came through the generations and culminated on the Cross. so we could say also in a sense Mary is the woman in Gen 3 since her Son is the one who embodied in the Ultimate sense what God said about her seed crushing the head of the serpent.

Quote:
the Woman in Revelation 12 is Israel



indeed this is the case, that woman is Israel but also in a real sense Mary because she gave birth (physically) to Christ. There seems to me to be a duality going on here in scripture, a spiritual and physical manfiestation. So the woman is both Israel, as evidenced by the 12 stars and sun and moon and all and how that is explained by the interpretation of the dream of Joseph. The woman is also Mary in a very real sense. and no i am not taking the catholic stance on this of mary being a co-redemptress,that idea is of the devil. So many times i find though that there is this duality and we tend to take one over the other as opposed to both and receive the fullness of what God is communicating to us...no wonder sometimes we a starved spiritually...i also see in here where catholicism has some Truths in it which we would benefit from if we examined them through the lense of scripture as opposed to the bias we have against catholicism. i am not saying we are to embace this false faith but that if we are honest, we will find some thing in ourselves or our own profession of the Faith which are not substantiated by scripture (as in Catholicism) which we too need to repent of.

Quote:
However the Catholic Church wants to apply that to Mary ...*literally*, and it produces more problems than you think. Because of their translation we have Mary as co-redemptress, Mary, Mother of God, Mary who they say IS the ark of the Covenant , and more that will cause you to slap your knee and bang your head on your keyboard.



well it produces problems in as much as we stray from Holy Spirit's instruction and the rest of the word. i have no problem with Mary being this woman in the vision because she is clearly. However in men wanting to enslave others (which is a tool of satan) the scriptures can and have been twisted to that end. There are similar instances in protestantism also. Even the whole issue of she being the ark of the covenant says to me that men have strayed from Holy Spirit's Instruction and Illumination of the word. We would do well to be wary ourselves of this when we go after things which have been said or written by others without pressing into God for Him to Minister to us. i used to want to take the jawbone of an ass and go Samson on people but our Lord showed me that He was MErciful to me and so He has me pray for my brethren more and more. Sometimes it is necessary to use said weapon but i find it is much less than i thought...

Quote:
Clue..Women don't have "seed" they have eggs!!! Go figure, but in the OT Israel is the Wife of God. Her seed, Israel, is the seed of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah to David...the seed of David, which came through Mary, Mary being herself a seed of the Line of Judah and the house of David, but the SEED is Christ, and the *HER* in Genesis 3:15 is Israel.



true women have eggs...where is that in the bible though? i think seed is speaking of offspring as it is used of women. so then we can say that the offspring of Eve through Seth and that line to Abraham, to Isaac and Jacob is ISrael. The emnity began right when God said it did. It is manifest in how our service to God does hurt the enemy in a very real sense because it reminds him that his plan of causing grief to God through enslaving us has been undone. We crush his head, he brusies our heel by causing us to stumble from time to time in that. This applies to all the children which came from Eve through the lines and generations. And then that also culminated on the Cross when Christ did crush the enemy's head and His own heel was bruised in that He suffered death. i am a bit of, well i am a mystic so tend to be shown things in great detail and this causes me to read things carefully...this may get me in trouble now and again...anyhow if the serpent's head is crushed and the heel is bruised, who do you think won that encounter? Whose wound will heal faster?

Quote:
Also in Revelations 12, Mary is not the mother of the 12 tribes of Israel, or the Mother of the 12 Apostles. The Sun, moon and 12 stars refer to Joseph's dream in Genesis. See how all scripture fits together, and how scripture teaches scripture?



very true sis. indeed scripture teaches scripture and so we see that the manchild who is birthed rules the nation with a Rod of Iron (this is Jesus) and in a real sense, Mary gave birth to Him also. it's not one or the other view it is both because scripture supports both. Now obviously we can see where the woman applies to Mary specifically and ISrael specifically because of the stars and all but there is no denying that it is both views since scripture supports both and when we view them together in Light of HOly SPirit, we see the full picture.

Quote:
So even with the word Woman, Women etc, we need to be very careful how we divide those truths.



indeed but we need also to be careful so as to not divide them unto alienating these Truths from one another and taking one over the other. i have found this on the issue of predestination and free will, it is not one or the other but both are one in concert to the Eternal Purpose's Fulfilment.

Quote:
PS: I need to add this. Because the Catholic Church believes Mary to be Genesis 3:15 and Rev 12, and because Mary is now an ICON with many false religions, Even Islam believes in Mary, and the moon under her feet (the Moon is an ICON for the Islam faith....you see it on top of all their churches,) as well as Fatima being Mohammad’s daughters name, you have "our Lady of Fatima, of which the Pope when leaning over to kiss this statue missed a bullet, saving his life, ...sometime within this time period makes a secret Covenant with Arafat during the year 2000.



and this is because of men straying from Holy Spirit as it pertains to interpreting scripture. The thing to consider is that there is a Truth there which has been perverted by the enemy. The enemy can't invent anything or create anything, every lie he has ever told, or false believe has been a perversion of a Truth of God and if we press into GOd, He will peel away the layers of lies and reveal the Truth on which the lie has been based.

this is why i can never get tired of the word, there is so much to consider and so many things at work. The bible being of God is Infinite and Inexhaustable. The Jews say that there are at least 360 ways to interpret each verse in the bible...now how many verses is that? this is why i guess often times i see more than 1 application to a scripture...man 2 ways i see to intepret this verse...at least 358 left to go...:-P

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' NAme. AMEN.

p.s. in case i didn't say it before, i don't believe Mary is a co-redemptress in any wise, there is but one Redeemer and that is Jesus.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/7/29 14:03Profile









 Re: Women...

Quote:
Mary is the woman in Gen 3 since her Son is the one who embodied in the Ultimate sense what God said about her seed crushing the head of the serpent.





Ironman, that Prophesy is still yet to be fulfilled is it's completion at the end of the 1000 Year Millennial Reign, When Jesus Christ takes the Throne of David. This IS what the Catholic Church hates and why they so emphasize Mary also as the Woman in Revelation 12.

Remember

Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.


Don’t forget, everything in it’s order.
Read:

1 Corinthians 15
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

*************25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

*************26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

*************27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


Genesis 3:15 has much more to come…..and Mary and the Catholic Church have nothing to do with it.


Love in Christ
Katy-did

[b]Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
[/b]

Hummmmmm, ever wonder why He didn't say MARY? Ans; Because God knows Beginning from the End, and leaves no holes to be filled by the imagination of men.

God Bless 8-)

 2007/7/29 17:54
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sis K-D
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

Quote:
Ironman, that Prophesy is still yet to be fulfilled is it's completion at the end of the 1000 Year Millennial Reign, When Jesus Christ takes the Throne of David. This IS what the Catholic Church hates and why they so emphasize Mary also as the Woman in Revelation 12.



like i said earlier which i reiterate Genesis 3:15 is not limited to Israel but the context seems to me to include Mary since she is the the one who gave birth to Christ in a real sense. The same applies to the woman in the Revelation also, she is Israel clearly but she is Mary also. Now i don't believe Mary is a co-redemptress because that is not the testimony of scripture. the crushing of the head is not a one time thing because the emnity between Satan and men is not a one time thing but is something which was from Adam and Eve and continues to this day. The context is much broader than the end of the Millenial reign. it spans all of time from Adam, to the Crucifixion and even to the end of the Millenial Reign.

Quote:
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.



ok, this verse speaks to me of the outworking of the crushing of the enemy's head by the death on the Cross in their lives. that is the breaking of bonds in their lives which is part of an even bigger context of that matter. This crushing of the enemy's head is no small matter that it can be relegated to being an event which happens at one point because it clearly spans the period between when God spoke it and what happens after the Millenium. all of it is a consequence of the slaying of Christ from before the setting of the foundations of the world.

even the ruling of Christ until all the enemies are put under His feet speaks to me of a process by which this is achieved over a period, well at least the manifestation of it anyway because Christ was victorious from His slaying at the foundations of the world. indeed everything is in order but let us remember that the scriptures from God's Perspective read very differently because for God what we perceive to be past present and future are all before Him simultaneously and so to see from that perspective is unlike anything we can imagine. This is how i am learning to read the word and it makes so much more sense now. i see more clearly the timelessness of the word because what is spoken of and written in the word is written for the Eternal Context.

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Genesis 3:15 has much more to come…..and Mary and the Catholic Church have nothing to do with it.



i agree and it began with Eve and goes on till death is cast into the lake of fire and Mary's role is carrying our Lord, giving birth to Him and caring for him as she was called to do.

Quote:
Hummmmmm, ever wonder why He didn't say MARY? Ans; Because God knows Beginning from the End, and leaves no holes to be filled by the imagination of men.



what does Mary have to do with that? :-? why would Christ have to say Mary as it pertained to the scripture you quoted? God leaves room for us to grow in the Knowledge and Wisdom of His word, if we stray from Him then we fill it with vain imaginings.

again i am learning that scripture being of God is Inexhaustable and Infinite and so for every verse we must consider the Eternal Context which means that there is always Infinitely more to grasp from the word than what we already know. as i said, one of the Jewish traditions is that each verse has 360 ways to interpret it which to me speaks of multiple contexts supporting the idea of the Eternal Context. this is why with scripture it's often not an issue of "either this or that" but is often both points and then some. This is why when i read the Revelation i can see a literal unfolding of events in the spirit realm as God showed it to John and also a corresponding event in the natural realm. i think we we believe we have fully grasped something in the word, like Paul said then we don't know squat...

1 corinthians 8 says:

[b]2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. [/b]

What happens when we think we have it down is that we shut our hearts out to further Revelation from God concerning a topic. i bless God for His Grace which has brought me past that narrow-mindedness such that i can get a better and better view of Him and the Scriptures and indeed all things. How open are you?

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

P.S. it is just me or is it way cool that Jesus in Rev 22:16 says He is the Root and Offspring of David? i mean He is the beginning of David and the end of Him at once...can you get your head around that? His victory over the enemy is Eternal, without beginning as we know it and likewise no end...wow...aint God Good?


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/7/29 23:36Profile









 Re:

Who is the woman of Genesis 3:15?



The catholic church argues that the "woman" of Genesis 3:15 is referring to Mary. This is often linked to the Woman of Revelation 12 being a reference to Mary. As shown in the article on The Woman of Revelation 12, that link is not valid, because the woman is not Mary. It is also said that, since Christ was the "seed" of Mary, then Genesis 3:15 has to be a reference to Mary. In this article I would like to look at the woman and the seed in Genesis chapter 3 to show that this is not consistent with Scripture as a whole and is therefore not a true interpretation.
I will begin by quoting Genesis 3 in its proper context, since the standard catholic argument uses a very limited portion of the passage and does not include the full context.

Genesis 2:15-3:20 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
God placed the newly created man, Adam, in the Garden to tend it. God looked on the man and said that it was not good that the man should be alone so, after creating the animals and not finding a suitable partner, He made a "helper" for the man. When Adam named her, he said, "she shall be called Woman". At this point the designation woman was a title of sorts, a way of identifying the person. Adam did not say, "she is a woman". He said, "she shall be called Woman", not what she was, but who she was. This single woman is called only "woman" in Genesis 2:22-23; 3:2; 3:4; 3:6; 3:12-13; and 3:15-16. She is identified as Adam's wife in Genesis 2:25; 3:8; 3:17; and 3:20. Adam is identified as the husband of the woman in Genesis 3:8. The woman never receives a name, Eve, until Genesis 3:20 The evidence is sufficiently inter connected and related. It is massively inconsistent to promote the woman of Genesis 3:15 as Mary when every other facet of the passage has been shown to use the word woman in reference to Eve, Adam's wife, created as a "helper" for him.
Catholicism will tell you that when Christ called Mary "woman" in John 2:4 that He was creating a connection between Mary and the woman of Genesis 3:15. As we can see, Eve is only called woman in the entire passage surrounding Genesis 3:15 because she did not have a name yet. In addition, Christ called four other females "woman" in the Gospels and no attempt at linking them to Mary is ever made. They are The Samaritan woman at the well in John 4:21, The Caananite woman with a possessed daughter in Matthew 15:28, The crippled woman of Luke 13:12, and the woman caught in the act of adultery of John 8:10. Woman was actually a term of endearment in the first century, and, as shown, Christ did not use it exclusively of Mary. The catholic attempt to build a marianistic belief on this word "woman" is very weak and inconsistent.
It is also argued that since the seed mentioned in Genesis 3:15 is speaking of the Messiah that the woman must be Mary. This is not the correlation intended by the Scripture. As is the standard I consistently adhere to, we might go to the Scripture to determine the intent of the reference to seed.
Genesis 9:9-12 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth. And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
The seed spoken of are the descendants of Noah. But not just immediate descendants but, as evidenced by v.11-12, to every descendant of Noah for perpetual generations. The use of the term seed does not necessarily intimate a one generation span in the relationship of the ascendant and descendant members referred to. One of my favorite Christian authors, Henry Drummond (whose material is largely out of print now) makes a comment about the sadness of observing a Christian pirouette through life on a single verse, so let's see what else Scripture has to say about seed.
Genesis 13:15-16 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
Here we see God making a promise to Abram and his seed. Once again, it is not the immediate offspring of Abraham, but his descendants forever. Other references to Abram/Abraham's future seed can be found in Genesis 15:3, 15:5, 15:13, 15:18, 16:10, 17:7-10, 17:12, 21:12, 22:17-18, and 24:7. In Genesis 17:19 the Scripture speaks of Issac's seed. Significantly, God clarifies the covenant as applying to Abraham's seed through Issac, the son of the promise. There are many, many other verses that provide further proof of the point I make here...that The use of the term seed does not necessarly intimate a one generation span in the relationship of the ascendant and descendant members referred to. I would like to continue along the path of this investigation of the term "seed" in the Scriptures by focusing on the seed of Abraham and some New Testamant material that refers to it. Speaking of Christ, the author of Hebrews states...
Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Paul also speaks most decisively concerning the seed of Abraham...
Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Here we see the Scripture referring to Christ as the seed of Abraham. Christ was no more directly the seed of Abraham than He was the seed of Eve, but He is called such. The parent/child relationship is not a requirement for use of the term "seed" in Scripture. To draw the conclusion that the only consistent interpretation of woman/seed in Genesis 3:15 is Mary/Jesus is to impose an artificial restriction on Scripture. Just because Christ is the seed, it is no more necessary for the woman of Genesis 3:15 to be Mary than it is for Abraham to be Jesus' father. A consistent exegesis of Scripture clearly shows that just because the Messiah was born of Mary it is not indicative that He was the seed of Genesis 3:15.
To conclude, Genesis 3:15 is a prophecy of the Messiah. Catholicism makes a number of convoluted and inconsistent attempts to turn the verse into a prophecy of Mary, but on closer examination those attempts fall apart and can not be supported using the word of God as a standard.

By John DeVito


Love in Christ
Katy-did

 2007/7/31 10:55





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