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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Abe_Juliot wrote:
Has anyone had an explaination for these numbers?

The 144,000 & the twelve tribes of Israel
The 144000 is an analogy, it is not a list of the tribes of Israel. Notice that, Even though Reuben is the firstborn instead of Judah, it begins with the tribe of Judah. Jesus is the lion of the tribe of Judah, and was the firstborn from the dead He is put first. Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [b]Col 1:15,18[/b] [color=990000]Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:[/color]

Josephs is also listed along with his two sons. The Bible tells us Joseph gave his birthright (which should have been Reubens’ [b]1Chron 5:1[/b] [color=990000]Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.) to his sons, Ephraim and Manasseh.[/color] Even though his two sons had the same land they are often spoken of as two separate tribes. Jacob also gave Ephraim the blessing and not Manasseh, who is the eldest, but we see Manasseh here and not his brother.

Priests never inherited any land; [b]Josh 14:3[/b] [color=990000]For Moses had given the inheritance of two tribes and an half tribe on the other side Jordan: but unto the Levites he gave none inheritance among them.[/color] The tribe of Levi is included here when they were never included in inheritance before; the reason is because we are a holy priesthood and a royal priesthood [b]1Peter 2:5[/b] [color=990000]Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.[/color] [b]1Peter 2:9[/b] [color=990000]But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:[/color]


This analogy does not have Dan probably because of Idolatry. In conclusion, If God was actually giving us a list of the tribes of Israel; He would have just put them in order of birth and inheritance, and wouldn’t add or leave a Patriarch out.

It then says that each one of them was sealed. A seal is made from wax that has been imprinted on with a signet ring. Today we use our name as our seal. Since it is a unique way of writing our name, it is a personal seal that we call our signature. We will only put our signature on thing that we agree to or approve of. This is saying that God has put his approval on them. [b]2Corinth 1:22[/b] [color=990000]Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.[/color] [b]Eph 1:13[/b] [color=990000]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,[/color] [b]Eph 4:30[/b] [color=990000]and grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.[/color]

This is how the Tribes are placed in Revelation 7:5-8
I will put the tribes’ actual placement number to where it should be it the order of their birth

The first name is Judah. #4.

The second name is Reuben. #1.

The third one is called Gad. #8.

The fourth name is Asher. #9.

The fifth name is Naphtali. #10.

The sixth name is Manasseh.

The seventh name is Simeon. #2.

The eighth name is Levi. #3.

The ninth name is Issachar. #6.

The tenth named is Zebulon. #5.

The eleventh is Joseph. #11.

Remember, there is no tribe of Joseph. He gave his inheritance to his sons.

The twelfth is, Benjamin. #12

This is the true Israel of God [b]Gal 6:16[/b] [color=990000]And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.[/color] (the Church and saved Israel). When the time of the gentiles is complete, then God will move His attention to Israel once again then Israel will be completed and saved. [b]Rom 2:29[/b] [color=990000]But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.[/color] [b]Rom 11:15-32[/b] [color=990000]For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? :16 For if the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bears not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou stands by faith. Be not high minded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.[/color]

What about this number, 144,000? Notice that John said he heard the number, he didn’t see it; this tells us that it isn’t an amount (as in quantity) of people, it must mean something else. The number 12 represents 12 tribes of Israel from the Old Testament and 12 Apostles of the New Testament. The number 1000 represents from Hebrew, the sense of yoking or taming an ox or joining together, maturity and full stature.
Let’s do some math.
12 x 12 = 144. Then it multiplies 12 by 1000 in which we see above the meaning of these numbers, Israel and the Church being yoked together in peace. So we see the 144000 as the perfect completed Church of the Old Testament and New Testament. The completed Israel of God.

This idea of the 144,000 being the whole Church and saved Israel also makes sense because we see the next part of the chapter from v: 9 as the rapture taking place.

 2007/7/26 9:19Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Has anyone had an explaination for these numbers?



One must read the whole chapter to understand what is taking place here....Note what is said after the sealing of the 144,000
Revelation 7

1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have [i][b]*****sealed the **servants** of our God in their foreheads. [/b][/i]

4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

[i][b]9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; [/b][/i]


10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Romans 9:28-30
28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Romans 11
Israel’s Rejection Not Total
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” (Gentile World Power, Gentile false Gospels etc, etc, ) 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


God will always reserve for Himself HIS Servants, His remnant...His Elect for the purpose of carry on the Gospel INTACT!

Love in Christ
Katy-did


;-)

 2007/7/26 9:46









 Re:

Concerning Israel: This is not an analogy but fact:

Genesis 49
1And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you ***IN THE LAST DAYS***. (Yet to be fulfilled)!!!!

2Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father.

3Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:

4Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father's bed; then defiledst thou it: he went up to my couch.

5Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations.

6O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.

7Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.

8Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.

9Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?

********10The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. *********

11Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:

12His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

13Zebulun shall dwell at the haven of the sea; and he shall be for an haven of ships; and his border shall be unto Zidon.

14Issachar is a strong ass couching down between two burdens:

15And he saw that rest was good, and the land that it was pleasant; and bowed his shoulder to bear, and became a servant unto tribute.

16Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.

17Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

18I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.

19Gad, a troop shall overcome him: but he shall overcome at the last.

20Out of Asher his bread shall be fat, and he shall yield royal dainties.

21Naphtali is a hind let loose: he giveth goodly words.

22Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:

23The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:

24But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)

25Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:

26The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

27Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil.

28All these are the twelve tribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.


Concerning Joseph and his dream


Genesis 37:
8 And his brothers said to him, “Shall you indeed reign over us? Or shall you indeed have dominion over us?” So they hated him even more for his dreams and for his words.

9 Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, “Look, I have dreamed another dream.

********And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me.”

10 So he told it to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?”


*******Revelation 12********
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun,( Jacob) and the moon ( Rachel) under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: (the 12 Tribes of Israel)

2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. ********
ISRAEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Romans 11:
24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

********26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: ********
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The CHURCH did not replace the Promises to Israel.

Love in Christ
Katy-did ;-)






 2007/7/26 11:23
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

bro Logic you said:

Quote:
This analogy does not have Dan probably because of Idolatry. In conclusion, If God was actually giving us a list of the tribes of Israel; He would have just put them in order of birth and inheritance, and wouldn’t add or leave a Patriarch out.



Really God would list Israel as He sees fit which may not be in order of birth or inheritence. In the Revelation there is mention is Israel (3 times i think) as a listing of 12 tribes, the composition of names changes each time. i would say that since Jesus told John that this was Israel, then in each case, it is indeed ISrael. The fact that the word says 12000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel to me means that this is Israel being talked about. We tend to want to make things which are probably better understood literaly into allegory and end up with fuzzy ideas on things. Judah is listed first because from Judah came most of the kings of Israel, 2 of note are David and his descendant, Christ.

Quote:
What about this number, 144,000? Notice that John said he heard the number, he didn’t see it; this tells us that it isn’t an amount (as in quantity) of people, it must mean something else.



:-? i always thought that heard 144000 and it was 144000...i don't really see any other way to interpret 144000 other than, well 144000.

you also said:

Quote:
The number 12 represents 12 tribes of Israel from the Old Testament and 12 Apostles of the New Testament. The number 1000 represents from Hebrew, the sense of yoking or taming an ox or joining together, maturity and full stature. 12 x 12 = 144. Then it multiplies 12 by 1000 in which we see above the meaning of these numbers, Israel and the Church being yoked together in peace. So we see the 144000 as the perfect completed Church of the Old Testament and New Testament. The completed Israel of God.



bro, i don't think this is right at all. God forgive me if i am wrong and set me straight, and if you are in error may He set you straight. AMEN. There is yet another 144000 which is mentioned in the Revelation; this being 144000 from the earth, these are firstfruits and are mentioned in Revelation 14. This is the 144000 which belong to the Lamb and are redeemed from the earth which i believe is a reference to the gentiles of the world. These are said to be virgins while the 144000 from the 12 tribes are not. i believe that the 144000 from Israel belong to the Father as they are not said to follow the Lamb wherever He goes, and that they are called out of Israel.

you also said this:

Quote:
This idea of the 144,000 being the whole Church and saved Israel also makes sense because we see the next part of the chapter from v: 9 as the rapture taking place.



ok, if this is where the rapture takes place, then it must be after the tribulation. Rev 7 says:

[b] 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. [/b]

and then continues:

[i][b]And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.[/b][/i]

to me that seems to suggest a post trib rapture, a rapture after much suffering by which we are purged. The rapture is preceded by tribulation, great tribulation so i don't think it can happen at any moment as many say and i fear a great falling away will occur when we are found in tribulation.

anyhow if this group of saints, this great multitude is in heaven already while yet many saints are on earth dying during the trib, we need to rethink how we read the Revelation and indeed all scripture. i believe strongly that God showed it to me that the Revelation is not to be read as though it is linear. It is to some degree but the fullness of this book and the whole scripture can be found only when we look at it from God's Perspective; that is past present and future are all before Him at once. bro Logic scripture is not logical at all unless we look at it from that Perspective.

Paul says that we are seated in Heavenly Places right now so Heaven is not a thing/place to be waited for, it already [i][b]is...now[/b][/i]The Revelation says that Christ was slain from the setting of the foundations of the world. So when God thought to create, Christ was slain then for the redemption of creation and that is the point of our Salvation. We were Saved, we are being Saved and will yet be Saved just as surely as Christ was, is and is to come. We as His Church are like Him in this Respect also. We were in Heaven at the time of Christ's slaying before the setting of the foundations of the earth, we are seated in Heavenly Places now with Him, and we will go with Him to be where He is when He returns. When God opened this up to me, The Revelation made all the sense in the world, and indeed so do all things. When i have Deja-vu it is because i have been at that place or done that thing before, not in another life or anything crazy like that but in the sense that i have seen from God's Perspective...To walk in the Spirit is to be in Heavenly Places, to walk after the flesh is to be down here. The reason we saints oft disagree is that from time to time we leave our abode in Heaven and come down to earth and deal with one another in the flesh.

Let us take our places in the Heavenlies and walk in the Spirit.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/7/26 19:07Profile









 Re:

Logic wrote,

Quote:
What about this number, 144,000? Notice that John said he heard the number, he didn’t see it; this tells us that it isn’t an amount (as in quantity) of people, it must mean something else.



It must be something else? Because he didn't see it?

I hear God's Word and He tells me of many wonderful and miraculous things that He will do. Would I not be denying His word if I say, "It must be something else, because I didn't see it"?

Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace, be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

The number is still there. 144,000... no less and no more. Can you hear it? Why can't you see it?

May the Lord teach you. -Abraham

 2007/7/26 19:28
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Katy Wrote:

"""
Relationship takes years, alone ***with the LORD****.

How many say "I LOVE GOD" and leave their wives and families? More then you know! Love calls for OBEDIENCE to put away our old man and our own personal desires...(yes they are still there) to do LEARN God's perfect and acceptable WILL. We learn this obedience through the things we suffer. The TESTS in life get harder and harder. No one has arrived YET, nor will we, as long as we are in these earthly fleshly bodies. There will always be a war between our two natures. Just when you think you have arrived, WOW, watch out...here comes another test that God Gives to prove we haven't!!!!"""

Praise God that Christ suffered all things as we do and He is in us to care for us in these sufferings. Our Circumstance and Situation Companion to the utmost, Our C & S Savior, The Gifted One Himself, that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory." We will learn. Praise God.

Tts 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works

Phl 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

This is the prophecy: 2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/7/27 0:37Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Who are these that are sealed? 2Cr 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

These are not the 144,000, of the 12 tribes. These are the son's of God, and possibly the 144,000 who are virgins by the Christ in them and their Teacher's seal already on them. These are heavenly, already birthed son's of God.

These are different. These are earthly.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.

These are Israel evangelists, prophets and teachers of the earth. These will evangelize the world in the millennium as The promise fulfilled to Israel His Chosen people.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/7/27 1:02Profile
strawrifle
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 139
uk

 Re:

Abe it seems rather insecure to be so concerned that i believe exactly as you lol..

We know that Cornelius the Roman solder wasn't saved till he met Peter Act 11:14 speak of this.

14 He will speak words,to you by which YOU and all your household will be saved.'

But we read that God had heard Cornelius prayers and actions before he was saved.

2 He was a devout man and feared God along with his whole household. He did many charitable deeds for the Jewish people and always prayed to God.

How could he be devout,fear God,pray prayers that God hears, and do good things in a unsaved state? Isn't he totally depraved during this period?

but

Act 10:4 Your prayers and your acts of charity have come up as a memorial offering before God.



_________________
andy

 2007/7/27 7:23Profile









 Re:

I love this one too. Another CLEAR fact that total depravity is not in scripture. These men only knew about John the Baptist, nothing about the Holy Spirit. So again, no one is regenerated (born Again of the Spirit) before, in order to believe.


Acts 19
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Love in Christ
Katy-did ;-)

 2007/7/27 11:19









 Re:

Quote:
These are said to be virgins while the 144000 from the 12 tribes are not.



Revelation 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Defiled with woman …doesn’t say “A “Woman.

To say that anyone with a woman is defiled is totally against scripture. Scripture teaches the marriage bed is undefiled. The WOMAN here is the Woman who rides the beast.
****Which is Apostate Christianity. The Woman is Mystery Babylon!

The Church is also a Chaste VIRGIN:

2 Corinthians 11
1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

We either follow the “Lamb”, or we follow mere men, the teachings of men, the doctrines of men, the worship of men….which will all lead to worshiping the WOMAN, Mystery Babylon!

No where in scripture are *MEN* called virgins!!! :-?


Love in Christ
Katy-did

 2007/7/27 12:10





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