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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Revelation Chapter 7 Destroys Man-Centered Election

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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
There is only one that can say what sin is, certainly not man. There is only one that can judged evil, that is the one that created it. God created sin and evil and controls them uses them and makes them do for His good pleasure.



John 8:44

You are of [your] father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [resources], for he is a liar and the father of it.

According to this Scripture we find that Satan is the author of the lie. He is the father of evil.


Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
Jam 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
Jam 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Jam 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
Jam 1:16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

According to Scripture, God does not tempt with evil.

So how does this precept compare to what you have stated above?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/7/20 10:51Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
God can receive no glory from the free will of man,

How could HE recieve glory from robots?

If I program my computer to praise me, that is worth nothing, however, if my wife praises me from her own free will without anything from my part accept that I show her who I am, that is infanitly graeter than my computer.

Free will of Man glorifies God more than it would if He did it all!

 2007/7/20 11:47Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

How can He receive glory from dead men's bones, that are in hell. That is where all would be except for Christ and the Grace of God. He did it all and that ALL in in Christ. Then we have the will to do what God would want, that is the Love from someone that understands what He has done and wants to return that Love and obedience because He first loved us and Gave Jesus Christ for us. Now my Love is in the realm of God's Love and now I can freely give it back to Him. Before Christ in me that was not possible.

Romans 5:5-8 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/7/20 15:42Profile
theopenlife
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

Logic, may I share another vantage with you?

Imagine that in my possession was $10,000. I proceeded to spend this on gambling, lewdness, and other manners of sin until I had nothing left of that original sum.

Later I discovered that many of my deeds were against the law and the courts determined to fine me $10,000.

Is it just for the judge to expect something of me that I do not have to give? Yes, because the deficiency is owning to myself.

God is righteous to expect perfect holiness and willingness, though no one can give it, because the extensive corruption of their will is the results of sinfulness that He did not cause.

The book of Romans says plainly that in Adam all sinned... we were born of his spiritual character, curruptions and corruptors in the face of God.

God is just to regenerate whomsoever He wills, just as He did with John the Baptist in the womb. If, however, the Lord suffers any man to live for several years that man will inevitably manifest his corruptions and unwillingness to serve the TRUE God.

Thank God that common grace has been afforded by which we can call the worst sinner to humble himself in reading the word and praying. God often uses this means as the method of sovereign grace.

 2007/7/20 16:31Profile
theopenlife
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

To answer the question further, God does not receive glory from making robots. He receives glory in Christ by calling dead men to live, setting captives and slaves free, by opening the eyes of the blind, and translating some from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.

Man was created with an "unbaised will" and in sin we have acquired "corrupt wills" that will anything but to be totally subject to Christ and free from sin.

The problem is not that men are born without "free will", but that their wills are of such a nature that they only "will to rebel" against God in truth.

 2007/7/20 16:36Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

We have only 2 options. 1. We are of our father the devil. 2. We are of our Father God.

It all comes down to in whom you believe. Adam believed Satan and Satan ruled the whole earth, "the prince of the power of the air". On top of that He was the ruler of all mankind's souls' and by his spirit in us we were thrown out of God's family.

Ephesians 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Christ on the Cross is the only One that defeated the nature of the children of wrath.

Act 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, [thou] child of the devil, [thou] enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

Who is the only one that can stop this ownership because of the first Adam and turn to the ownership of the paid price, the the One we believe, if so be it that we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the old man is dead, the new man is life in Christ Jesus.

Act 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, [thou] child of the devil, [thou] enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

2Ti 2:26 And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Jam 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Those that are Christs' can only be snared by the devil, they cannot ever be under his oppression as father ever again, we can stay out of the snare of the devil and never will loose the destruction of the Satan of the old man for in Christ all things are become new.

Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/7/20 19:43Profile









 Re:

Quote:
The problem is not that men are born without "free will", but that their wills are of such a nature that they only "will to rebel" against God in truth.



I believe many confuse Free Will with Free Choice.

At he fall of Adam and Eve, they knew both *Good* and Evil. Not just evil. The first of Romans lays the foundation that the consciousness and awareness of God, and right and wrong was within all men....after the fall!

Nineveh is a perfect example that FAITH comes by Hearing, even to those who many believe we are so totally depraved it is impossible....it is not!

Jesus, when on earth, said to the Jews who rejected Him, that Nineveh will rise up and condemn them. Now why would Jesus make such a statement if man didn't have free choice within the Sovereign will of God.

God has called ALL to repentance. Not all will obey that call, but it is God's WILL we preach the Good News of REPENTANCE from SIN, and that Jesus Christ died for the SIN of the WHOLE world.
1st John (those who leave out *any* scripture to
prove THEIR doctrine, is not concerned with the Doctrines of Christ.

Those who have REPENTED and turned to God through Jesus Christ for the forgiveness/remission of SIN identify with Him in death and resurrection Life.
This is what the scriptures teach, both Jesus and Paul)

This is the most Awesome wonderful GIFT God has given to a lost and dying world....Jesus Christ...full of GRACE and TRUTH! Whosoever believes as the scriptures have said will not parish but have everlasting life, are NOW a New Creation in Christ Jesus, buried with Him, and raised up together with Him. Only IN CHRIST can you come to the Father who dwells in the Holy of Holies. No one can come to the Father except through the Son....washed in His Blood.

Love in Christ
Katy-did



 2007/7/21 10:21
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

We must distinguish between salvation and working out our salvation. It is God who brings us to salvation, nothing of man. In working out our salvation in Christ in whom (we) live and move and have our being, we have the responsibility and the capacity now that we are born again to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Yes that is WORK, and that work will show our faith which is in Christ Jesus. Like James said I will show you the Faith that has been given to me by the works I do. These works are not to get salvation, for no works can get us salvation, but these works are the works of our salvation in Christ Jesus. Now we can do all thing in Christ Jesus our Lord, and these works are the works of Him who loved us and gave Himself for us. Even our works are as His works, He has said they are, But be assured they are works. Now, "I can show you my faith by my works". The Love of Christ is now the motivation work ethic and we can show that we are Christian by our love-works, which are wrought in Christ Jesus.

I cannot attain my salvation by my works but I can attain perfection by the works I do after I am saved. Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.

Dead works are my own works, now leaving aside these dead works let us go on into perfection by the works we are capable of in Christ Jesus.

Love-works, "let us love one another even as He has love us". Which we are capable of now that the birthing has taken place by God the Father.

Hbr 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];

Who heard Him? By direct revelation of Jesus Himself? Galatians 1:15-17 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

How do we get it? Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Is He revealed in you? "Ask and you will receive, seek and it shall be opened to you".

Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

How are we going to be judged? By this Gospel.
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Then our works are pleasing to God.

In Christ: Phillip

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.


_________________
Phillip

 2007/7/21 14:19Profile









 Re:

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


Abel chose life, Cain chose death. The Promise of Genesis 3:15, The Promised Redeemer, Jesus Christ, came in the FLESH and walked among men , was *OPENLY* Crucified, not in secret. It is in this RISEN Christ, who first died for the sin of mankind, that we *live and move and have our being*. Who is *WE*, but those stated in teh first of John, to as many as receive Him to them gave he the power to become the sons of God.

Romans says, those who are lead by the Spirit are the sons of God. What Spirit? The Spirit of LIFE IN CHRIST that has set us free from the law of sin and death. Adam & Eve sinned and all manking died. IMMEDIATELY a REDEEMER was Promised.

In Romans 5 Paul said where sin abounds GRACE much more abounds. He immediately qualifies his meaning by what he Didn't mean....shall we continue to sin that Grace may abound?...God Forbid!!!!! He makes very sure this is not the meaning of Grace as some have so abused the meaning. Grace is The Cross. Galatians 2:20&21 also clarify Grace. I am crucified with Christ, neverthe less I live, yet not I but Christ liveth in me, and the life that I *NOW* live in the flesh, I live by the Faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me....(Here is the qualifying verse)****I DO NOT MAKE VOID THE GRACE OF GOD, FOR IF RIGHTEOUSNESS COME BY THE LAW, CHRIST DIED IN VAIN.

Many believe FAITH was the Gift and Not Jesus Christ. So what they are really saying without realizing it is, By FAITH you have been saved through Grace. Yet the Bible teaches, by GRACE you have been saved through FAITH, or through the Cross(Grace) or through Jesus Christ(Grace).

Jesus Christ was OPENLY Crucified for ALL to see and know about, also recorded in Scripture. Choose Life!

Paul was a special Chosen vessel to preach Christ Crucified among the Gentiles, and this was the revelation he received from Jesus Christ.

James or Peter needed no *special revelation*, as they were apostles to the Jews.

Yet Peter, being sent a dream, ended in his going to Cornelius(a gentile) came to him in a vision and dream concerning meat on a sheet( God saying, What God has cleansed, don't call unclean. Yes Salvation is open to all. 3 times did this dream come concerning Gentiles. When Peter took many from the Jewish sect with him to Cornelius's home and after telling the Jewish sect about this FIRST GENTILE getting saved...they were astonished that the Gentiles also received the Gift of salvation accompanied by the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised in John 7. We know in Galatians Peter was still prejeduous so much so that Paul had to openly rebuke him for being a hypocrite.
Paul more fully opened and revealed both Jew and Gentile, becoming a NEW MAN in Christ, no longer Jew of Gentile, but a New Creation, the New Man, AKA the Church, the Body of Christ, having a Heavenly Calling, not an earthly one. And what the Hope of this Calling is, Christ in you, the Hope of *GLORY*, not earthly.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

Added and edited for content.

No one is saved by special revelation. They are saved as was Cornelius by HEARING the Gospel first. There are no new revelations, but revealed truth in the Word of God, and through His Word, we are spiritually "enlightened" and grow in theGrace and Knowledge of Jesus Christ.


Ephesians 3
1For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.

 2007/7/21 17:42
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Romans 10:12-21 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/7/21 19:20Profile





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