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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Revelation Chapter 7 Destroys Man-Centered Election

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roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re: Tough Questions bro Jay...

Here are some points to consider in this discussion.
1)God knows all, and has predetermined all things to bring them to His appointed end.

2)God does not know all things, and is like a great chess player who is always one step ahead of his enemy, or in this case His creation.

3)God has left all things open ended, and things are not headed toward a specific end.

4)Man is the one who determines God's actions by his decisions, thus creating a diety-like creature.

Now which of these is Biblical?


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/18 15:12Profile









 Re:

He is God and he can do it how he want to do it, he has all authority. He is worthy of all honor glory and praise.

I'll bet when some you guys when you were kids. When your mom baked her a prize cookies. You would ask who made them, when were they made, what was the ingredience, who made the ingredience, how much of each ingredience made up the cookie. What was the size of the cookies. Why were they different sizes. How long was it baked and at what degree was it baked, in what oven, who made the oven and so on so forth, instead of just showing your thanks to your mom and loving her and eating the cookie and enjoying it.
And just maybe she didn't bake you any cookies cause she knew you ask all the questions.

 2007/7/18 15:32
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Isaiah 45:5-13 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

We can try to twist this all we want, but if sin and evil can exist without God, then there must be another God who created them. There is only one that can say what sin is, certainly not man. There is only one that can judged evil, that is the one that created it. God created sin and evil and controls them uses them and makes them do for His good pleasure. Praise God that He has chosen to be a loving and wanting God, that is wanting to be a Father to His Children. Is it not His own will to choose whom He wants as Children. He wants all to come to Him as Father, but they would not. So God wants to be a Father, He will be a Father and He will birth whom He will to be Children in His House. He will see to it, that I am ready for that House. He has planned it before the foundation of the earth and let us be assured we will be son's of God.

Either God is God and the Father of His own children or He is not. He is justified in doing anything He wants to make His household be exactly what He wants it to be. He has put His only begotten Son in us to give us the Nature of Himself and make us His son's.

In Christ, a son of My Father, who created me and made me and gave me birth: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/7/18 23:53Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Either God is God and the Father of His own children or He is not. He is justified in doing anything He wants to make His household be exactly what He wants it to be. He has put His only begotten Son in us to give us the Nature of Himself and make us His son's.



Amen dear brother.

I have been deeply humbled whenever I take time to think of the greatness of God. He is not just merciful, He is all merciful, He is not just mighty, but almighty.

It is a shock to our minds to think that God has, and does curently rule/d the entire galaxy, even realms we shall never see, and yet, and yet He would care about us? Amazing isn't it.

1Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/19 0:05Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

I would like to post two verses that we would do well to look upon in this discussion.

Firstly-
Jeremiah 1:5 [b]Before I formed thee[/b] in the belly [b]I knew thee;[/b] and [b]before thou camest forth[/b] out of the womb [b]I sanctified thee,[/b] and [b]I ordained thee a prophet[/b] unto the nations.

Secondly-
Galatians 1:15 But [b]when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,[/b]

Now in both of these we see a person being set apart before they are born for a purpose only God knows. Also note this is independent of any foreseen works, especially in Paul's case where his works would never have merited salvation.

In the Galatians passage separated is the word aphorizo, and here is the definition according to Thayers,
ἀφορίζω
aphorizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to mark off from others by boundaries, to limit, to separate
1a) in a bad sense: to exclude as disreputable
1b) in a good sense: to appoint, set apart for some purpose

In the Jeremiah passage, the word for sanctified is qâdash, and here is the definition from Strong's,

qâdash
kaw-dash'
A primitive root; to be (causatively make, pronounce or observe as) clean (ceremonially or morally): - appoint, bid, consecrate, dedicate, defile, hallow, (be, keep) holy (-er, place), keep, prepare, proclaim, purify, sanctify (-ied one, self), X wholly.

From both of these alone it is safe to say that God's foreknowledge is a bit more than just looking down the corridors of time, but instead is based upon His good pleasure, and in accordance with what will bring Him glory.



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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/19 1:21Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Amen,

That Glory for us is, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory."

Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

This perfection will be His Life in us throughout all eternity.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/7/19 3:56Profile









 Re: Context again ~

Col 1:3,4 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints..........

Col 1:9,10 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; that ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God ....

Col 1:22, 23 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in his sight: IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard ...


It's just these "leavings off" that make us appear to be antinomians.


One side quotes all the "GOD does" parts and the other side quotes all the "we do" parts and thus are "we" split.
Making some Legalists and others Antinomians.


The WORD, from O.T. to the N.T., shows clearly it's always been and will be Both/And.

He does ~ we do. We do because He does and He does because we do. Cooperatively always through-out and we'll see this clearly if we don't pull verses and read only in Context always.


Love ya's.



 2007/7/19 17:55
TimmyJoe
Member



Joined: 2007/6/19
Posts: 120
Panama City, FL

 Re:

Quote:
Can't you see? These are 2 different ways of salvation? One is of man and the other is of God. One gives glory to man and the other gives all the glory to God. One is man-centered and the other is God-centered.



How much more glory does God recieve when men come to him through free will. The grace of God is by no means irresistible. He doesn't force anyone to obey. When the Gospel is preached and mans hears and is moved by the Holy Spirit, he can either believe and be saved or harden his heart.

Yes, the Holy Spirit will draw us to Christ, but we must respond. Either recieve life through Christ or continue in spiritual death with an even harder heart.

Its like Grannie said,




Quote:
He does ~ we do



He will do his part and He expects us to do ours. When we do ours He recieves all the more glory.

with love-TimmyJOe

 2007/7/19 18:43Profile









 Re:

Amen Timmy and GrannieAnnie
Rev 3:20

 2007/7/19 19:45
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

God can receive no glory from the free will of man, for they would not receive Him, but because of Him, as many as do receive Him by the Power of the Holy Spirit, He gave them power to become son's of God.

John 1:5-17 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

None would choose Him by any will of the flesh.
The flesh will always deny Him unless the Holy Spirit quicken it and give that we might receive, not choose.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/7/20 10:17Profile





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