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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Revelation Chapter 7 Destroys Man-Centered Election

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 Re:

Quote:
Brother, you know why I didn't want to get into this debate, that's on So many threads now, because of what it's doing to us all.



Annie, I just want to say... I love you and You're in my prayers. I have a number of brothers and sisters that disagree with me. I work at a Bible College, and there is just a handful that agree with me. But, among the majority that disagree... We still love eachother. We debate the topics all the time. But, God has given us grace to do it in a manner of humility.

Please forgive me, for coming off as..."I Gotcha!" (with a big smile). My presentation lacked gentleness in certain areas.

I have been to prayer meetings that had a room full of brothers and sisters (who differ on these topics). Yet, we all are God fearing and walking in love, we rejoice and weep together. Though, some of us in the meeting strongly disagree on these points... That didn't destroy our fellowship.

These topics are not evil in and of themselves... They are in the scriptures and God desires that we abide in His doctrine. So, we should be concerned about our doctrine and our Brothers and Sister's doctrine.

Brother Jesse Morrell has a concern for his brothers and sisters. Jesse has been posting many threads on his position concerning these doctrines. I must say, I admire Jesse's zeal and love for the Word of God. Brother Jesse has been a blessing and I look up to him as an older brother in the faith. (even though we are the same age and physical birthdate) I think that's kinda funny.

However, I strongly disagree with Jesse and those who hold similar views concerning the nature of God. I still love him and pray for him, though strongly disagree with him.

My best friend and his wife had once been solid Arminians and now they are Calvinist. Our fellowship had never been destroyed (when they were Arminian) and It hasn't been destroyed (when they became Calvinist). We debated often and reasoned about these doctrines... And some times the HEAT was turned up.

It's very possible to discuss thes doctrines in a Spirit of meekness (for both sides of the camp)

let us look unto Jesus. God bless you! -Abraham

 2007/7/17 21:33









 Re:

I would like to post this again, just in case newcomers have missed it in the midst of the discussion.

I started a new thread after this one. The topics discussed in it are important as a foundation for this one. Many of the questions that have been asked... i have answered in this new thread.

Here's the Link:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=18043&forum=36&0

God bless you! -Abraham

 2007/7/17 21:38









 Re:

I believe John 3:16 clears this issue up without clouding the water. whosoever will believe in their heart and confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and make HIM Lord and not with the mouth only with no fruit, with repentance-turn in direction, I will take away their heart of stone and give them heart to know me and I will be their God and they will be my people. The key words is whosoever will.

 2007/7/17 21:42
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
The key words is whosoever will.



But the very point is that without God intervening, noone would.

Consider this, two men read the Bible, there is nothing differing in them, they are in all ways equal(similar upbringing etc.) One believes, the other says, "this is garbage" and tosses the book aside.
What is the difference?
Who caused the difference?
Why does one believe and the other not?
Just so we agree too, who convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgement to come? As these are necessary for one to truly be justified.

And as for John 3:16, the emphasis is always wrongly placed on "whosoever", but that is not the main thrust of this passage. If you honestly look at it, you will see that the "whosoever" must do something, namely believe. It does not say, "whosoever will not perish."

As for the Revelation verse that says, "whosoever will may come and drink of the water of life freely", we must understand that only the Spirit can produce spiritual thirst, and hunger for righteousness. Natural man could care less about truly being righteous before God, and will seek a multitude of ways to have his own righteousness.

See the point is, that no man will come unless God creates that urge to come.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/17 22:27Profile
layman
Member



Joined: 2007/7/15
Posts: 2


 Re:

Roaringlamb,

Thank you for your reply. You make an interesting case. You said, “But God did not make man evil at all, rather man was made good.” Good and evil are moral concepts that neither Adam nor Eve had before they partook of the forbidden fruit. Both were innocent in the Garden before their eyes were opened.

Dr. Curt Daniel said, “God cannot be blamed for sin - He is not the” author of evil”. But it was equally true that God foreordained the existence of sin in a blameless manner for His own glory - He permitted sin to exist.”

Hmmm, God decrees sin to exist, then permits it to exist. Which is it please?

The above is the same contradiction as is found in the Confession of Faith below also known as the Doctrine of Decrees

“God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”
Confession of Faith III, 1

It appears God does not allow anything to happen, this would include second causes, all things being unchangeably ordained. Or is it only some things that are unchangeably ordained?

If God in eternity unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass He is the First Cause of all things by decree. There is no liberty or contingency of second causes as God has foreordained these as well, or did He not ordain all that comes to pass?

What does John Calvin say in regard to the First Cause of the fall of man?

“The decree, I admit, is dreadful; and yet it is impossible to deny that God foreknew what the end of man was to be before he made him, and foreknew, because he had so ordained by his decree… God not only foresaw the fall of the first man and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it,” Institutes of the Christian Religion III, xxiii, 7.

“I confess that all descendants of man fell by the Divine will” and that “we must return at last to God’s sovereign determination, the cause of which is hidden in himself” Institutes of the Christian Religion III, xxiii, 4.

It appears Calvin believed God caused man to sin for His own pleasure.

As to your illustrated cases of second causes

In the first case of 2 Sam. 24:1 and I Chron. 21:1. The first cause was not God but David’s pride. He had won a number of great victories and already was putting his confidence of strength and security in the number of his army instead of the living God. Also in connection to a census is the matter of the redemption money
( Exodus 30: 11 – 16 ) and a warning of plague if the people ignored the giving of the redemption money when numbered and this is just what happened. God also gave David almost ten months to repent ( vs. 8 ) and even confronted him through Joab. The point is that sin was already in David’s heart before God did anything.

In the second case of Matt. 4:1 and Mark 1:12 “Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit
into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil.” “The Spirit impelled Him”. The Father and the Spirit were testing Jesus. But neither the Father nor the Spirit tempted Jesus. They simply allowed Jesus to be tempted by Satan. The Son of David passed the test. He had faith. The way to pass God’s tests is by faith, which quench Satan’s temptations (cf. Eph. 6:16).

I like it and it agrees nicely with the point that I have been saying all along.

The Doctrine of Decrees says that God in eternity past foreordained by decree all of this, including the results of the temptations of Jesus. If all of this was decreed to the specific end result then the temptations of Jesus mean absolutely nothing. That is what I am disagreeing with; especially in regards to the original topic of election to salvation via predestination which is what Bro. Abraham was driving at. God knows all things; it does not mean He decreed all things.

Question, is the term ‘foreknowledge’ really applicable to God, being omniscient, or is it written for our understanding because time for man is linear?

Something to think about

God bless

 2007/7/17 23:16Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Question, is the term ‘foreknowledge’ really applicable to God, being omniscient, or is it written for our understanding because time for man is linear?



It is applicable to God and us. God from all eternity foreknew (relationally - Matt 7:23) certain people and did not foreknow other people. Why foreknow and not just know? Because God knew some people relationally before they knew Him and before they ever existed.

 2007/7/18 7:37Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

layman,

An example of all this is found in Genesis 50:15-21.

15When Joseph’s brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, "It may be that Joseph will hate us and pay us back for all the evil that we did to him." 16So they sent a message to Joseph, saying, "Your father gave this command before he died, 17'Say to Joseph, Please forgive the transgression of your brothers and their sin, because they did evil to you.' And now, please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father." Joseph wept when they spoke to him. 18His brothers also came and fell down before him and said, "Behold, we are your servants." 19But Joseph said to them, "Do not fear, for am I in the place of God? 20As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. 21So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones." Thus he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

We see that a sinful event happened--the selling of Joseph into slavery. The brothers meant it for EVIL, but God meant it for GOOD.

How can God take a sinful, evil event and use it for good? Remember, Joseph did not say that God decided to intervene after the evil deed was done, No, God worked for good "to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."

This is what we have a hard time grasping in our human minds:
- How can God mean for good the fall of Adam?
- How can God mean for good the selling of Joseph into slavery?
- How can God mean for good sinful acts of man?

Notice that I am not saying that God is the author of evil, man commits the acts and are responsible for his actions, but "God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." (Romans 8:28 NASB)

 2007/7/18 7:46Profile









 Re:

someone wrote:
Consider this, two men read the Bible, there is nothing differing in them, they are in all ways equal(similar upbringing etc.) One believes, the other says, "this is garbage" and tosses the book aside.

someone wrote:
What is the difference?
Moe-mac_ response: The difference the Father draws one by HIS SON’S sacrifice on the cross. One believes in his heart, confesses with his mouth the other doesn’t.


someone wrote:
Who caused the difference?

moe_mac's response: One realizes he has no other hope but in the Blessed Hope Jesus Christ and the other has bought into the devil’s lie.


someone wrote:
Why does one believe and the other not?

moe_mac's response:One dies to self and realizes truth in that Jesus gave him more mercy and grace than he could ever repay and makes HIM LORD of their life. Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
KJV


someone wrote:
Just so we agree too, who convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgement to come? As these are necessary for one to truly be justified.

moe-mac'e response:
He calls , he sanctifies, and he justifies, and also glorifies.

someone wrote:
And as for John 3:16, the emphasis is always wrongly placed on "whosoever", but that is not the main thrust of this passage. If you honestly look at it, you will see that the "whosoever" must do something, namely believe. It does not say, "whosoever will not perish."

Moe_mac response
In the King James version it says should not and here is the meaning NT:622
apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee); from NT:575 and the base of NT:3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:KJV - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

someone wrote:
As for the Revelation verse that says, "whosoever will may come and drink of the water of life freely", we must understand that only the Spirit can produce spiritual thirst, and hunger for righteousness. Natural man could care less about truly being righteous before God, and will seek a multitude of ways to have his own righteousness.

See the point is, that no man will come unless God creates that urge to come.


moe_mac's conclusion:
I have had this conversation before with one other Calvinist. We were discussing the biblical question of the need to be witnessing and to participate in church visitation. He said that we should not go to the lost because God already knew he was going to save and who he wasn’t, so we were just wasting our time on visitation. My answer was, yea that is right, he knows who will draw and who won’t, but we don’t know who he will draw and not draw to be saved and who will accept Jesus and who will not, so what we do and what does the light unto our feet ad the lamp unto our pathway say about it?
Matt 28:19-20
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
So when we decide we know as much as God does and know all HIS thoughts and purposes and ignore HIS COMMISSION to HIS disciples we put ourselves on the throne and how dangerous is that?
Prov 3:5-8
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.
8 This will bring health to your body
and nourishment to your bones.
And I might add it is Jesus that lights the fire in the fireplace but we must look to see if there is any smoke coming out of the chimney, if not then maybe Jesus hadn't lite the no fire in the fireplace.

2 Cor 13:5-7
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved,
KJV

more moe_mac conclusion:
I really don't understand the point the poster questions.
As for Revelation chapter 7 sheding light on salvation. I'm not real up on revelation but I believe this is occuring after the church is raptured and the olive branch, the Jews are being grafted back in and saved during in the tribulation. Maybe someone who has studied Revelations Chapter 7 more carefully could expound on it for us!!!! I don't study the tribulation much because I am depending Jesus to take me in the repture of the church.

 2007/7/18 9:43
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Jaysaved

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
Quote:
Question, is the term ‘foreknowledge’ really applicable to God, being omniscient, or is it written for our understanding because time for man is linear?



It is applicable to God and us. God from all eternity foreknew (relationally - Matt 7:23) certain people and did not foreknow other people. Why foreknow and not just know? Because God knew some people relationally before they knew Him and before they ever existed.



it seems to me the point of our Salvation was never in this life. In this life we only realize we are saved. Christ was slain from the foundations of the world which was the point of our Salvation by Divine Election. From even before creation, God had long-since formulated His plan of Redemption. This is the Security we have in Salvation. This is why Paul believes that nothing can separate us from the Love of GOd in Jesus. Everywhere in Paul's letters, he says we are called or chosen from before the setting of the foundations of the world. After readings Romans 9 and God Illuminating it, i began to see this Divine Election for what it is, an excercise of Divine Prerogative because nothing else could be sufficient for Salvation.

i bless God He's made me vessel of Mercy...from before the setting of the foundations of the earth!

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/7/18 11:11Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Tough Questions bro Jay...

bro Jay

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved from before the setting of the foundations of the earth. AMEN.

Quote:
This is what we have a hard time grasping in our human minds:
- How can God mean for good the fall of Adam?
- How can God mean for good the selling of Joseph into slavery?
- How can God mean for good sinful acts of man?




indeed bro...i say simply that God is God and as such can do as He pleases. Just when we think we understand Him and want to rest, He throws a curveball and we have to rethink it all...This keeps us in a state of awe of Him and always pressing into Him lest we think we can rest on our laurels...

being kept in this state is a blessed thing lest we become lethargic or bored with HIm. it also puts us in our place, exposing our indaequacy before Him, to understand or explain Him...makes me say like bro Ezekiel when asked if the bones could live, "Lord, thou knowest..."

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/7/18 15:06Profile





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