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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Revelation Chapter 7 Destroys Man-Centered Election

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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
IRONMAN wrote:
Quote:
However, They did become one because they are a harlot even till now, therefore, deem her as one as Revelations does.

but bro Logic, it is only for a season that Israel plays the harlot. [b]In the end, all of Israel will be saved[/b], all Israel being all those God has Elected of His own Good Pleasure to Salvation.


Rom 9:4-6[/b] [color=990000]Who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
[b]:5[/b] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
[b]:6[/b] Not as though the word of God has taken no effect. For they are [b]not all Israel, who are of Israel:[/b][/color]
[b]Rom 2:28-29[/b] [color=990000]For he is not a Jew, who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
[b]:29[/b] But he is a Jew, who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.[/color]

The Jew, who is one outwardly is the unrepentant Jew. The Jew who is one outwardly is of the true Israel of God along with the Church.

The Great Trib. is the time of Jacobs Trouble, in which God will turn Israel to Himself.


[b]Jer 30:3[/b] [color=990000]For, lo, the days come, says the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, says the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.[color]
[b]Jer 30:7-10[/b] [color=990000]Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
[b]:8[/b] For it shall come to pass in that day, says the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off your neck[/color]( the yoke of Nebuchadnezzar, Babolon.)[color=990000], and will burst your bonds, and strangers shall no more enslave them:
[b]:9[/b] But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
[b]:10[/b] Therefore fear you not, O my servant Jacob, says the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save you from afar, and your descendants from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.[/color]
Even now, Israel is comming back out of other Lands that God scattered them to because of their harlotry.

Quote:
IRONMAN wrote:ok,
Quote:
Rahab does not represent anyone or anything. All she is in Scriptur is Boaz' mother

you asked where anyone was called a harlot and Rahab was, i didn't know you meant called a harlot as to represent something/one.

There is no other nation in the Bible called harlot.

 2007/8/4 12:06Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

How is it that there is no Jew or Gentile in the Body of Christ? You cannot bring back into this Church His Body, the Israel that God has rejected and chosen for an earthly people for Christ's millennial Kingdom when Israel will receive all their covenants and promises of God to them on this earth. Israel is and earthly kingdom, The Body of Christ the Church is an Heavenly Kingdom. You cannot commingle the two or everything gets messed up. Israel is not a birthed kingdom, The Body of Christ is. What is Christ going to build His Church upon. The Rock of Revelation that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God. How is this revelation going to be revealed to His Church? Through Paul.

I know this is a lot of scripture, but it gives the whole picture of the Body of Christ His Church, separating Israel from His Heavenly Kingdom where we are seated already. This rightly divides the the Scriptures and separates Israel and their covenants and promises from the Body of Christ His Church's promises.

Colossians 1:9-29 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

What are we to preach, warning every man, and teaching every man? Paul's Gospel, The birthing of "Christ in you the Hope of Glory." This is the perfection of God for His House, His Children, that is son's of the living God being prepared to live in His house which is heavenly, ruling over the earthly.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/8/4 19:15Profile









 Re: NOT WAITING...


Ironman:

THIS is to the professing Church Today, not to Israel. You see, God would prefer you to be either Hot or Cold, for the Cold has yet to be tried...however the luke warm is just that bla, bla so so head knowledge person who really doesn't stand for anything, or stand up for anything...AND has NOT overcome, nor will he. (Read the end of the Chapter and God clearly clarifies who he is talking to. Why? More than likely he is a double minded man, looking to man for explainations. He is invited to WHAT?

[i][b]20-21 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.[/b][/i]

WOW, I think WE should be worried more about this...a charge to the professing Church ***here and now.

The Gold tried in the Fire are those previous scriptures I posted a couple days ago. This is our calling NOW.


During the Kingdom Reign, those who are eartthly who enter in both Jew and Gentile will not be able to say...."I am Crucified with Christ...no longer I but Christ in me"...EXCEPT HIS CHURCH, His Body, now being prepared to reign and rule with Him. We will all ready be in our Glorified Bodies...they won't.


Revelation 3:14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

 2007/8/5 8:50
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 to the Church at...

sis K-D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Quote:
THIS is to the professing Church Today, not to Israel. You see, God would prefer you to be either Hot or Cold, for the Cold has yet to be tried...however the luke warm is just that bla, bla so so head knowledge person who really doesn't stand for anything, or stand up for anything...AND has NOT overcome, nor will he. (Read the end of the Chapter and God clearly clarifies who he is talking to. Why? More than likely he is a double minded man, looking to man for explainations. He is invited to WHAT?



indeed, this is one of the Manifold Beauties of Scripture, it's timeless...Whether you see the 7 Churches as being the original ones written to, Church ages or whatever (personally i believe it is both and then some) the letters are to the Church. to be double minded is to believe like you said man's doctrines/explanations and even more than that in that it is believeing what the enemy has said also. that could come through a man. an interesting thing to note is that the use of the word "overcome" as being a past tense thing is not complete. in the YLT (young's literal translation) the word is rendered as "overcoming" when it pertains to us. For us the battle continues, when we conquer one thing, there is yet another to be subsuded... just a side note here, i read Ezekiel 36-39 using that translation and at first i was confused because the tenses were all over the place, then God hit me with it, it was a most awesome display of God's Omnipresence i'd ever seen. God spoke of things as being done, or waiting to be done, or being done all at once because all things are before Him at once. i was like, "whoa.."

you quoted this scripture:

Quote:
20-21 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.



Indeed...

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WOW, I think WE should be worried more about this...a charge to the professing Church ***here and now.



you best believe it...which is why i can't for the life of me understand how we see a pretrib rapture when the Revelation was written to the Church...if it's in the book, we probably ought to expect to see it, just like the saints of old did.

Quote:
The Gold tried in the Fire are those previous scriptures I posted a couple days ago. This is our calling NOW.



AMEN. our Lord is trying us by fire but the heat is about to get turned up...dear sis the trying of our Faith by Adversity is crucial to our development because in that adversity we find out what manner of Christian we are. it's easy to say "oh i'm a good Christian" when all is peachy, but when someone walks up to you and slaps you for no reason...that's when we know what the deal is. i fear that when we go through tribulation and trial we will come up short, especially if we think we will escape persecutions (which i believe are headed our way) like unto and even worse than what was at the first. What would you do when faced with lions? what would i do? i pray God's Grace for us all...

Quote:
During the Kingdom Reign, those who are eartthly who enter in both Jew and Gentile will not be able to say...."I am Crucified with Christ...no longer I but Christ in me"...EXCEPT HIS CHURCH, His Body, now being prepared to reign and rule with Him. We will all ready be in our Glorified Bodies...they won't.



men will be Saved in that day also, as surely as men will (even though the enemy is chained) choose to rebel, hence Christ rules with an Iron Rod. Those nations which don't pay the necessary Homage will have no rain the word says. Those who rule with Christ are not the whole Church. Rev 20:5 makes that plain. it is the Martyred. i'm not sure if the rest of the Church us also ruled over by Christ and the Martyrs, though i don't believe they will need an Iron Rod to get them to do right! :-P they may be the ones to set the example for the rest of men to follow. i pray God give us more Insight on that matter.AMEN.

Grace and Peace is ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/8/5 21:16Profile









 Re: to the Church at...

Quote:
Those who rule with Christ are not the whole Church. Rev 20:5 makes that plain. it is the Martyred. i'm not sure if the rest of the Church us also ruled over by Christ and the Martyrs, though i don't believe they will need an Iron Rod to get them to do right! they may be the ones to set the example for the rest of men to follow. i pray God give us more Insight on that matter.AMEN.


These are promises to the Church…us…


Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to *****sit with me in my throne*****( Kingdom Reign) , even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

*****I will be part of the 1st resurrection
, There are only 2, and you sure don't want to be part of the 2nd, that's for sure.*******


2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

****This is why we are called to the fellowship of His sufferings, as Paul said in Philippians 3...that I may KNOW Him, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable to His death that I may attain to the resurrection....***the first resurrection. Paul is telling us to press on....read the remainder of that chapter....Yes, the WHOLE Church will reign and rule with Christ during the 1000 Year Kingdom Reign. (Those who mind earthly things are enemies of the Cross.....which would mean those pushing dominionism/replacement theology, are actually pulling you away from the Cross and the Purpose and plan of the Church...this is why we are called to OVERCOME the world...as 1 John clearly states what overcoming is)

***[i][b]10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after,

*******if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. [/b][/i]

This is what WE are to apprehend...understand...what our calling is NOW.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (The Church)

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (Kingdom Reign)


Revelation 2: Also to the Church

26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: (Kingdom Reign)

27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28And I will give him the morning star.



The Church is not ruled, but the Church will reign and rule with Christ. The Kingdom Age will be tough, and very legalistic. You will find the Kingdom Age rules and regulations in the book of Matthew. You see, Matthew is not a Book of Grace, but Law.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

Always keep this in mind!!!

[i][b]if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. [/b][/i]

 2007/8/6 6:21
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 to him that is overcoming...

sis K-D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Quote:
These are promises to the Church…us…



yes indeed, but not every member of the Church. you quoted Rev 3:21:

[b]21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, [/b]

yes, to him that is overcoming, but observe how this overcoming is to be:

[i][b]even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.[/b][/i]

how was it that Christ overcame? by being slain.now not every Christian has been Martyred nor will be, so not everyone will rule with Him in the 1000 yrs.To Rule with Him is a reward for death for Him. If we read the rewards which are given to the 7 Churches we see that they come after fulfilment of certain requirements.of course one can fulfil all of them and get every reward. Now to your point (i bless God that you posted as you did) there is a death involved in the Faith which is Spiritual, the death of Self and there is a reward for that. Now i believe that this pertains to the period after the 1000 yrs, which is eternity, hence we are kings and priests forever.

Quote:
There are only 2, and you sure don't want to be part of the 2nd, that's for sure



there is nothing wrong with being in the second resurrection...well except you're not in the Book of Life.

rev 20 says:

[b]11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened[/b]

and then:

[i][b]and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.[/b][/i]

The Lamb's Book of Life is also opened and so there are some who are written in this Book who stand before the Bema seat. In fact all the saints will receive their reward in full at this time.

Quote:
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us



True, if we SUFFER, suffering is not a nice thing, i don't know how willing we are to endure what He endured, but i know for sure that we wan the reward...

Quote:
This is why we are called to the fellowship of His sufferings, as Paul said in Philippians 3...that I may KNOW Him, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable to His death that I may attain to the resurrection....***the first resurrection. Paul is telling us to press on....read the remainder of that chapter....Yes, the WHOLE Church will reign and rule with Christ during the 1000 Year Kingdom Reign. (Those who mind earthly things are enemies of the Cross.....which would mean those pushing dominionism/replacement theology, are actually pulling you away from the Cross and the Purpose and plan of the Church...this is why we are called to OVERCOME the world...as 1 John clearly states what overcoming is)



it is not the whole Church that is Martyred. Rev 20:4

[b]4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.[/b]

the thrones are sat upon by those who were BEHEADED for the Witness of Jesus, also those who didn't worship the beast nor take his mark...hey wait a minute...maybe this is a hierarchy of who rules in the Church. think about it, it looks like it could be hierachical. Martyrs first, those who didn't take the mark nor worship the beast and were alive at his coming. you know that even among the angels there is a hierarchy. also the positions which will be filled by the saints belong to those angels who fell with the enemy. among those angels were cherubs and seraphims and the cherubs are chief among angels. mmm, you are right sis, we all rule with Him, just at different ranks. just like in the armies, there are officers of different ranks which are in charge of numbers of men according to their rank. Now the angels of God were appointed to have dominion over different things and areas, some large, some smaller. this is what God has shown me to be the Beauty and Utility of fellowship, wherein God can minister to us these things through one another and if we are open can come to a greater understanding of the Truth.

[b]thanks be to God for using you to open up the word to me a bit more so my understanding can be increased. i hope that your understanding has also been increased.[/b]

Quote:
The Church is not ruled, but the Church will reign and rule with Christ. The Kingdom Age will be tough, and very legalistic. You will find the Kingdom Age rules and regulations in the book of Matthew. You see, Matthew is not a Book of Grace, but Law.



right, you know there is a hierarchy and we will rule (those who are resurrected at this time coz not everyone will be) over whoever is alive and who is born thereafter.

Grace and Peace is ours In Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/8/6 12:27Profile









 Re: to him that is overcoming...

Quote:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.




Ironman, Do ou see all the AND's written above.

If God Promised in the 7 letters to the Church a promise to reign and rule with Him, and no mention that one needs to be beheaded to do so, you are reading more into the above then you should be.

So, where exactly do you think the Church is going to be during this time, and isn't Paul a part of the church? Will he be included in the above? What about those who were shot, or maybe like Peter, hung upside down? is he excluded because he wasn't beheaded?

It says those who have part of the 1st resurrection will reign and rule with Christ.

There are only 2 resurrections..and the 2nd is to stand before the Great White Throne Judgement. Christians will not stand there, as we stand at the Judgement seat of Christ. Two entirely different judgements. We will be judging even the angels even ****at that time.

1 Corinthians 6:2-4

2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?


Love in Christ
KAty-did

 2007/8/7 6:24









 Re:

Ironman,

You said:
Added/Edited: [b][color=CC0000]the death of Self and there is a reward for that. [/color][/b]

I believe the reward is eternal life itself, and our identification in death and resurrection life with Jesus Christ. This is what the Gospel is all about....read on!

Quote:
Now to your point (i bless God that you posted as you did) there is a death involved in the Faith which is Spiritual, the death of Self and there is a reward for that. Now i believe that this pertains to the period after the 1000 yrs, which is eternity, hence we are kings and priests forever.



Ironman,

But what about this verse:

Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


Now, WHO are the overcomers, and how do we become an overcomer? Does it have something to do with the resurrection? I believe they are all connected.


Romans 6:5
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

******Revelation 2:11 (Extremely important verse) *****
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:4-7 must be kept together!

Rev 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Revelation 20: 5 - 7
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


John 5: 28 – 29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 23:6
But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.


1 Corinthians 15:12
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

1 Corinthians 15:13
But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

1 Corinthians 15:21
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:42
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Philippians 3:10 & 11
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Hebrews 6:2
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
*****(seems as though the author thought this to be the basic elementary doctrines of the faith)**** Now we press on….

Hebrews 11:35
Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
*******These were OT Saints who died before the death and resurrection of Christ, but are now with Christ….Hebrews 12….the spirits of Just men made perfect.

1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

***Praise God, …so it’s about resurrection…not election as some may think.

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Rev 20:4-7 must be kept together!

Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead( this would not be saints as we are ALIVE, raised up together with him as we speak,, a NEW CREATION) lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Now concerning the OVERCOMERS. Can one be an overcomer without first being Romans 6:5
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

How, through death and resurrection life? Yes, we are no longer a part of this world system…that belongs to anti-christ. 6 means man, unregenerate man….7 means :1. perfect, 2. complete etc. this is who WE are **in Christ**

1 John 2:13
I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

1 John 2:14
I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.******remember we are not of this world****

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.***WOW, WHAT A PROMISE*** WE ARE OVERCOMERS!!!

1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? ***you see Jesus who said “ I AM THE RESURRECTION is also the same as He who overcomes, and WE In Christ are OVERCOMERS!

Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: ( WOW..The Kingdom Reign)

Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Now that’s a scarry thought huh? I didn’t say it, but it’s there.

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


Love in Christ
Katy-did ;-)

 2007/8/7 9:05
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 No Special Rank or Priviledge for Losing Ones Head ...



Bro. Ironman, Katy-did wrote'

"These are promises to the Church…us…"

to which you replied ...

"yes indeed, but not every member of the Church. you quoted Rev 3:21: 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, yes, to him that is overcoming, but observe how this overcoming is to be: even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. how was it that Christ overcame? by being slain. now not every Christian has been Martyred nor will be, so not everyone will rule with Him in the 1000 yrs. To Rule with Him is a reward for death for Him. If we read the rewards which are given to the 7 Churches we see that they come after fulfilment of certain requirements. of course one can fulfil all of them and get every reward. Now to your point (i bless God that you posted as you did) there is a death involved in the Faith which is Spiritual, the death of Self and there is a reward for that. Now i believe that this pertains to the period after the 1000 yrs, which is eternity, hence we are kings and priests forever."

Then Katy-did answered you;

"If God Promised in the 7 letters to the Church a promise to reign and rule with Him, and no mention that one needs to be beheaded to do so, you are reading more into the above then you should be."



Wow bro i have to agree with Katy-did here ... this is like a new doctrine i've never heard before ... Praise God that you prefaced this with "i believe", but "i believe" you're wrong in this conclusion ...

You know at one point i used to be a staunch pre-tribber, but now i'm not so sure anymore, so i'm now TRULY a pan-tribber as in as God reveals it will pan out as it goes, and to tell you the truth how it pans out is neither here nor there with me anymore because my #1 concern is no longer at which point i'll be extracted (raptured) from this world (if i don't die first) but about my not being found lacking by Him in His expectations of my/our work in the harvest of my/our fellow vessels of mercy (those yet unsaved) and of my/our properly nurturing His Body (my/our fellow saints), both outreaches being empowered by Holy Spirit as my/our outward manifestation of His Love toward our fellow man and saint ... We both know He's coming back for a Church unblemished, of which it's obvious that we're not, so some correcting fire is due, to that we both do agree ... So my entry here ain't about when the rature, or the first or second resurrection, but about your conclusion that somehow only those "martyred/beheaded" (Rev. 20) will get to rule, reign and judge with Christ during the 1,000 years ... i totally disagree with this as so many scriptures aforehand testify to the contrary ...

1Cor.6
[2] Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by [3] Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

2Tim.2
[11] It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
[12] If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Rev.2
[26] And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
[27] And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev. 3
[21] To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


Every saint is not required to die a physical martyrs death, let alone specifically by beheading, to rule, reign, and judge with Christ during the 1,000 year reign ... It is widely believed that the 24 elders of the Revelation is comprised of 12 OT and 12 NT chief saints, these 24 occupying their own individual thrones and closer to God's own throne than all other saints afterward, so then by your reasoning only a percentage of them who were martyred would be eligible, excluding even the Apostle John who was the only disciple to die of old age? ...

We are God's, and in His service we are expandable and/or expendable, and are all payed the same wage regardless as i believe the following scripture makes plain ...


Matt.20
[1] For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
[2] And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
[3] And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
[4] And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
[5] Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
[6] And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
[7] They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
[8] So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
[9] And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
[10] But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
[11] And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
[12] Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
[13] But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
[14] Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
[15] Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
[16] So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.


Now lastly of ...

Rev.20
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

i think it important to note the "ands" in this passage ... "And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded" is inclusive in a larger bunch of those participants of the first resurrection, not exclusive ... If God makes us exclusive as in the case of the 24 elders that's OK and His prerogative, but i think we have to be careful in making ourselves for whatever the reason as such, for we're all joint heirs with Christ ...

Blessings in the beloved name of Christ Jesus our Lord with whom we are already seated in heavenly places ...


 2007/8/7 13:12Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 to him who is overcoming pt 2


greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

sis K-D

you said:

Quote:
If God Promised in the 7 letters to the Church a promise to reign and rule with Him, and no mention that one needs to be beheaded to do so, you are reading more into the above then you should be.

So, where exactly do you think the Church is going to be during this time, and isn't Paul a part of the church? Will he be included in the above? What about those who were shot, or maybe like Peter, hung upside down? is he excluded because he wasn't beheaded?



but sis K-D there is mention of being beheaded in Rev 20 and if you read carefully what i said you'd see that i didn't limit this only to the beheaded but all martyrs which would include Paul, Peter, ANderw and so on. in that regard it seems you did misread my post, reading more into it than was there. we tend to do that from time to time and i bless God that He makes it so we can be corrected because we all need it sorely! i hope that sets the record straight on that.

Quote:
It says those who have part of the 1st resurrection will reign and rule with Christ.



yes indeed.AMEN.

Quote:
There are only 2 resurrections..and the 2nd is to stand before the Great White Throne Judgement. Christians will not stand there, as we stand at the Judgement seat of Christ. Two entirely different judgements. We will be judging even the angels even ****at that time.



there are 2 resurrections but i think that some Christians will stand at the second resurrection before God. let us consider also that men will yet be saved during the 1000 yrs reign and i believe it is these who will stand before God at this time. let us look at what Revelation 20 says about this time:

[b]11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God[/b] [i][b]and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.[/b][/i]

If every Christian was already given His due reward, why is the Book of Life opened? isn't that the book in which ALL Christians are written? Also the word says that men were Judged according to what was written in these books which were opened, one of them i believe is the Book of Life. i find it interesting also that only at this time is the sea giving up its dead. Perhaps our brethren who drowned at sea while in His service are the ones for whom the Book of Life is opened? Something to consider perhaps?

Now i want to go back to something which i said in the last post which you missed. i didn't go back and edit anything which i had written previously but in the moment that i was responding to your post, our Lord opened up something to me about Rev 20, i shared it in the post. i didn't feel led of God to go back and rewrite everything for the purpose of demonstrating His Grace and Mercy.

The reason i felt strongly about the beheaded ruling with Christ was because our Lord showed me my own death which will come in this manner. Now at first i hated that idea but in time our Lord showed me Rev 20 and i was comforted much, before that even He had shown me that His Spirit would be how i would endure all that must be endured. i didn't have a better understanding of this until our Lord had you and i go back and forth on this, and so our Lord had me keep what i had written the same and then add this to show that transition.

the original premise as revealed to me in part:



[b]the thrones are sat upon by those who were BEHEADED for the Witness of Jesus, also those who didn't worship the beast nor take his mark[/b]

the opening up of my spirit and mind by God working through you to bring me to a better understanding:

[b][color=0000FF]...hey wait a minute...maybe this is a hierarchy of who rules in the Church. think about it, it looks like it could be hierachical. Martyrs first, those who didn't take the mark nor worship the beast and were alive at his coming. you know that even among the angels there is a hierarchy. also the positions which will be filled by the saints belong to those angels who fell with the enemy. among those angels were cherubs and seraphims and the cherubs are chief among angels. mmm,[/color][/b] [i][b][color=0000FF]you are right sis, we all rule with Him,[/color][/b][/i][i][b][color=0000FF]just at different ranks. just like in the armies, there are officers of different ranks which are in charge of numbers of men according to their rank. Now the angels of God were appointed to have dominion over different things and areas, some large, some smaller. this is what God has shown me to be the Beauty and Utility of fellowship, wherein God can minister to us these things through one another and if we are open can come to a greater understanding of the Truth.[/color][/b][/i]

and then after having my eyes opened:

[b][color=0000FF]thanks be to God for using you to open up the word to me a bit more so my understanding can be increased. i hope that your understanding has also been increased.[/color][/b]

i hope that clarifies things! by God's persistence through you to increase my understanding i can see better now! i hadn't read all the "ands" as you said in that passage. it is interesting how our Lord will keep us blind to something for a time and things which we read all the time we miss until the time and manner of His choosing comes that we may have these Truths revealed to us.

Praise be to God indeed.AMEN.

Grace and Peace is ours in Jesus' Name.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/8/7 14:43Profile





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