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 Re: When the Saints come marching in.

Regarding who will be ruling and reigning with Christ and receiving their glorified bodies at the "First" Resurrection. We've looked at Rev 20 and must remember all those who went before us. When He Returns, "that" is considered "the last day" through-out the Bible. Type it into a Bible Search.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

 2007/7/12 14:20









 Re:

The Second Coming of The Lord [b]is[/b] the 3rd most guarded and important of all Doctrines.

Again, there are three times as many Scriptures about His Second Coming as there were for His First.

The doctrines of WHO God is, is the Chief Doctrine .... The Doctrine of Salvation is second .... then Eschatology.

Jesus put a severe warning at the end of Revelations to not mess with that book.

This subject should be approached with much trepidation and Not tossed around like "should women wear pants". There needs, must needs to be a holy reverence when discussing this and with fear. There is 'ample' Scripture that states, that twisting of these Scriptures that pertain to the #3 most important Doctrine in Theology is equivilent to twisting those of the First Two most important Doctrines. Amen!

Many quote that the Overcomers had "The Testimony of Jesus" but few look to see what that Testimony is.
It is "The Spirit of Prophecy".

Without which, one WILL NOT MAKE IT THROUGH ONTO THE END.

They will be rejected on "that day".

Not saying they will have 'no' chance of salvation, because those who do not worship the beast, nor his name, nor take his mark 'may' remain when He comes and be part of those who are not Glorified at the First Resurrection - key word is "may" because of the severe warnings against "wresting" these Last days Scriptures.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; [b]even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, [u]speaking in them of these things[/u]; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest{Pervert}, [u]as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction[/u].[/b]
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.

Again, Jesus said, "Behold, I have told you ALL things." And [u]as Plain as Day[/u] He did, just in the Gospels alone.
And so He did through Paul, Peter, Jude and John.

Spiritualizing plain Scripture and remembering - just how much Scripture pertains to His Return --- the sheer quantity of the Bible itself that speaks of His Return ..... is a 'very dangerous' sin. Yes, it is sin "to wrest/pervert the Scriptures".

We do not "spiritualize" the Doctrines of Who He is nor those concerning Salvation and Again, to spiritualize these holds the same Warnings.

In 2Peter3 above, the "wrest" means to "Pervert".

That's an act of the will, just as the Greek word for "heresy" means "choice".

 2007/7/12 14:54









 Re:

Quote:
It cannot be, sister, because Paul says that there will be BOTH a great apostasy AND the coming of the man of sin. They are distinct.



Distinct, but not altogether unrelated. As Tozer once said, "An idol of the mind is as offensive to God as an idol of the hand."

And as the majority of evangelical Christians today seem rigid in the hopes for a fleshly, material, carnal messianic kingdom on Earth... woe to them when their idol appears in the flesh.

Quote:
I believe with all my heart that if the Scriptures were meant to be taken allegorically Jesus or the Holy Spirit would have told us (like in Daniel 7:16), because it makes the Bible extremely confusing; you don't know what is real or not. There is far too much detail concerning the final years on earth and the antichrist that the only accurate conclusion is that these things are spoken of literally.



So an actual physical woman will stand on the moon wearing a crown of stars? And a seven-headed creature will leap out of the sea - the Pacific or Atlantic, do you think? And the followers of the beast will have a blazing purple 666 tattoos on their foreheads like in Left Behind...?

These are "mysteries". They must be interpreted with the aid of the Holy Ghost.

"whoso readeth, let him understand" (MAT 24:15)

"let him that readeth understand" (MAR 13:14)

"Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast" (REV 13:18)

These are prayers for the saints in the last days - to help them comprehend, unravel, and [b]interpret[/b] these mysteries.

Quote:
For example, how many different ways could the Holy Spirit have told us three and a half years? Jesus and Paul REPEATED what Daniel said, they did not INTERPRET what he said, which I know they would have, had it meant to be allegorical.



"And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten [b][i]seventy years, according to the days of one king[/i]: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot.[/b]" (ISA 23:15)

Quote:
The early church fathers who were discipled by the apostles believed in the future and literal fulfillment of prophecy. That says a lot.



You keep repeating this. Please cite your sources.

Tozer also said:

"The devil is a better theologian than any of us and is a devil still."

 2007/7/12 15:01
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Corey

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

Quote:
So an actual physical woman will stand on the moon wearing a crown of stars? And a seven-headed creature will leap out of the sea - the Pacific or Atlantic, do you think? And the followers of the beast will have a blazing purple 666 tattoos on their foreheads like in Left Behind...?



this is the thing i was trying to communicate earlier. in the spirit, this is what John saw so as far as the spiritual realm is concerned, this is what is seen. However each thing in the spirit has a physical manifestation. just like we don't see physically the angels blowing the trumpets, we see what happens on earth when they do. if the mark of the beast is spoken of by John who saw this in the spirit as being on the forheads and hands or the followers of the beast, there is a corresponding physical manifestation which may well be a literal mark. the thing is though there are those things which are spiritual which have a different physical manifestation like the beast, and those which could be more literal like (i believe) the mark of the beast.

We must aknowledge this that whatever is in the spirit realm manifests in the physical in some way, sometime literally and other times not. like you said we ought to seek God for the interpretation of these things and we may well find (and i have) that some of them are literal and others not but have a corresponding physical manifestation

i would say the early fathers believed in a literal fulfilment of the Revelation. Clearly John saw some things which were explained to him that were symbolic physically. what about this in Revelation 1:



Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.[b]The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: [/b]

or is this allegorical? :-? or maybe the return of Christ in the clouds is symbolic too. anyhow it seems to me there is a mix of both...to me is seems pretty obvious which is which.

May God reveal to us these Truths. AMEN.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/7/12 15:37Profile
Eli_Barnabas
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Quote:
The Second Coming of The Lord is the 3rd most guarded and important of all Doctrines.

Again, there are three times as many Scriptures about His Second Coming as there were for His First.

The doctrines of WHO God is, is the Chief Doctrine .... The Doctrine of Salvation is second .... then Eschatology.

Jesus put a severe warning at the end of Revelations to not mess with that book.

This subject should be approached with much trepidation and Not tossed around like "should women wear pants". There needs, must needs to be a holy reverence when discussing this and with fear. There is 'ample' Scripture that states, that twisting of these Scriptures that pertain to the #3 most important Doctrine in Theology is equivilent to twisting those of the First Two most important Doctrines. Amen!

Many quote that the Overcomers had "The Testimony of Jesus" but few look to see what that Testimony is.
It is "The Spirit of Prophecy".

Without which, one WILL NOT MAKE IT THROUGH ONTO THE END.

They will be rejected on "that day".

Not saying they will have 'no' chance of salvation, because those who do not worship the beast, nor his name, nor take his mark 'may' remain when He comes and be part of those who are not Glorified at the First Resurrection - key word is "may" because of the severe warnings against "wresting" these Last days Scriptures.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest{Pervert}, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.

Again, Jesus said, "Behold, I have told you ALL things." And as Plain as Day He did, just in the Gospels alone.
And so He did through Paul, Peter, Jude and John.

Spiritualizing plain Scripture and remembering - just how much Scripture pertains to His Return --- the sheer quantity of the Bible itself that speaks of His Return ..... is a 'very dangerous' sin. Yes, it is sin "to wrest/pervert the Scriptures".

We do not "spiritualize" the Doctrines of Who He is nor those concerning Salvation and Again, to spiritualize these holds the same Warnings.

In 2Peter3 above, the "wrest" means to "Pervert".

That's an act of the will, just as the Greek word for "heresy" means "choice".



AMEN!!! What a refreshing word, dear sister! I pray we would all meditate on this carefully.


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Eli Brayley

 2007/7/12 15:43Profile
Eli_Barnabas
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Quote:
So an actual physical woman will stand on the moon wearing a crown of stars? And a seven-headed creature will leap out of the sea - the Pacific or Atlantic, do you think? And the followers of the beast will have a blazing purple 666 tattoos on their foreheads like in Left Behind...?



Corey, I don't see what you're getting at. Did I say anywhere that there is no such thing as symbolism? Symbolism is found where symbolism is obvious, but you quote from Revelation and then try and apply this to the Olivet Discourse... Brother, the Olivet Discourse is not symbolic in any way. How can you compare Jesus' words to the apocalyptic book of Revelation?

Quote:
And as the majority of evangelical Christians today seem rigid in the hopes for a fleshly, material, carnal messianic kingdom on Earth... woe to them when their idol appears in the flesh.



Corey, I would be very careful about how you are attacking the belief in the Kingdom of God on earth. This has been looked for by saints going back to the earliest of days and all throughout the ages. The Bible is full of promises of the restoration of the earth and the Kingdom coming to it. Please... maybe you might not like the idea of it, but I would be more sober minded about this and I strongly encourage you to study the position of those who believe in the literal fulfillment of these promises.


_________________
Eli Brayley

 2007/7/12 15:52Profile









 Re:

Quote:
How can you compare Jesus' words to the apocalyptic book of Revelation?



Eschatolgy is not the art of comparison between one set of scriptures to another - I'll leave Hegelian Dialectical Synthesis to the Philosophers. It is juxtaposition for correlation. Active searching for correlations among the Old and New Testament scriptures like names, numbers, events, time, places, animals, etc - cross referencing this data with world events - and waiting on the Spirit to (prayerfully) interpret.


Quote:
Corey, I would be very careful about how you are attacking the belief in the Kingdom of God on earth. This has been looked for by saints going back to the earliest of days and all throughout the ages. The Bible is full of promises of the restoration of the earth and the Kingdom coming to it. Please... maybe you might not like the idea of it, but I would be more sober minded about this and I strongly encourage you to study the position of those who believe in the literal fulfillment of these promises.



I have studied the literalist interpretations, charts, diagrams, etc, and found them very much wanting.

"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch [b]the thief[/b] would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: [b]for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh[/b]." (MAT 24:42-44)

Jesus will come unexpectedly, like a thief.

"For yourselves know perfectly that the [b]day of the Lord[/b] so [b]cometh as a thief[/b] in the night." (I THE 5:2)

"But [b]the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up...[/b] Nevertheless [b]we[/b], according to his promise, [b]look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness[/b]." (II PET 3:10-13)

If you insist on a temporal Millennial kingdom on Earth ruled by Jesus from a physical temple in Jerusalem, Israel - and believe this to be the Second Coming - you must explain His Third Coming - when the entire Universe is ablaze. Unless He "comes as a thief" twice...

Peter was not looking for a material kingdom on Earth:

[b]Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness[/b].

And if Peter didn't look towards an Earthly kingdom, I doubt the other Apostles or Earliest Church Father did either.

 2007/7/13 1:35
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 Re:

Quote:
And if Peter didn't look towards an Earthly kingdom, I doubt the other Apostles or Earliest Church Father did either.


Here is a intresting quote from a larger article here:

[b]Dispensationalism: Part I - Millennial Views Prior to the Rise of Dispensationalism[/b]
http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/full.asp?id=9%7C%7C653

The Early Church

As we now turn to the early church, let it be emphatically stated from the outset that we do not, in so doing, look to it as our authority. Our one authority is the Word of God. But we are convinced that God would not have left His church ignorant of vital truth for eighteen centuries.

A sample of the outlook of the early church is obtained if we read the Didache (dating from the first quarter of the second century). The writer urges upon his readers watchfulness in view of the coming of the Lord. 'Watch over your life; let your lamps be not quenched and your loins be not ungirded, but be ready, for you know not the hour in which your Lord cometh' (16.1). But as the writer goes on to speak of the Antichrist, his language is patently different from the way dispensationalists would describe the same events. There is no concept of the church being taken out of the way by means of a pre-tribulation rapture. Rather, there
shall appear the deceiver of the world as a Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders and the earth shall be given over into his hands and he shall commit iniquities which have never been since the world began. Then shall the creation of mankind come to the fiery trial and many shall be offended and be lost, but they who endure in their faith shall be saved by the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth. First the sign spread out in Heaven, then the sign of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead: but not all the dead, but as it was said, The Lord shall come and all his saints with him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven.
It is not necessary for us at this point to examine each of the post-apostolic writers. A good survey of this data has been given by George E. Ladd in his book, The Blessed Hope. Ladd very ably demonstrates the absence of the dispensationalist concept of the pre-tribulation rapture. And no dispensationalist has been able to prove otherwise. The premillennialism that sometimes is expressed by the writers of the early church is no proof of the presence of dispensationalism. Nor is it a necessary deduction that this early chilaism was primarily the result of a study of the Scriptures. Chiliastic views were extensively circulated in the early church through such Jewish or Jewish-Christian writings as Enoch, 4 Esdras, Assumption of Moses, Ascension of Isaiah, Psalms of Solomon, and Baruch, all writings which neither Jews nor Christians regarded as canonical. This Jewish chilaism has been well documented and discussed in Geerhardus Vos' The Pauline Eschatology.3

Another method used by dispensationalists to lend historical respectability to their doctrine is to go to the Fathers and find examples of those who divided redemptive history into various epochs. Dispensationalists using this means of support are Arnold H. Ehlert4 and Charles C. Ryrie5. What these writers have failed to do, however, is to demonstrate that any of the works produced by the early church Fathers possess unmistakable evidences of promulgating those things essential to dispensationalism. Ryrie quotes Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Augustine6, as those who had the dispensational concept as part of their viewpoint. However, none of those to whom he appeals gives evidence of making a radical distinction between Israel and the church as two separate peoples of God. Yet this is at the very heart of dispensationalism and is included by Ryrie himself as one of the sine qua non of dispensationalism7. In fact, one of those cited by Ryrie, Justin Martyr, clearly indicates in his 'Dialogue with Trypho' his regard for the church as being the true Israel (chapters 123, 124, 125, 135).

It is difficult to assess the extent to which the early church held the premillennial view. But the emphasis that many of its advocates placed upon earthly rewards and carnal delights aroused widespread opposition to it, and it was soon replaced to a large extent by the 'spiritual' view of Augustine. He saw the millennium being fulfilled spiritually in the Christian church, the binding of Satan having taken place during the earthly ministry of our Lord. The new birth of the believer, according to Augustine, was the first resurrection in Rev. 20. He interpreted Rev. 20:1-6 as a 'recapitulation' of the preceding chapters, instead of describing a new age following chronologically the events of chapter 19. The 1000 years he took to be literal years, and he expected Christ's return at the end of that period. This spiritual interpretation of the millennium has been influential to a great degree on into the Middle Ages and beyond.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2007/7/13 2:16Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Here is a intresting quote from a larger article here:



Thanks. I'm a little confused at where he was going with this article. He uses lots of big "Churchian" words like "dispensationalist". He quotes the Bible once and 'Twelve Reasons why you should use THE SCOFIELD REFERENCE BIBLE' once. He doesn't cite his references except to say "x people thought this" and "y people thought that".

Thanks to this thread there are now two things I'm now sure of: I'm not a preterist and I'm not a dispensationalist.

Any more boxes I can try on? Hehe.

 2007/7/13 2:38









 Re: Couldn't sleep - ha.

Barnabas (40-100): "The final stumbling-block (or source of danger) approaches...for the whole [past] time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger....That the Black One [Antichrist] may find no means of entrance..." (Epistle of Barnabas, 4).

Clement of Rome (40-100): "...the Scripture also bears witness, saying, 'Speedily will He come, and will not tarry'; and, 'The Lord shall suddenly come [Matthew 24:30 coming] to His temple, even the Holy One, for whom ye look'" (I Clement, 23).

Hermas (40-140): "Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire [of the Great Tribulation that is yet to come], will be purified by means of it....Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints..." (The Pastor of Hermas, Vision 4).

Polycarp (70-167): "He comes as the Judge of the living and the dead" (Epistle to the Philippians, II).

Justin Martyr (100-168): "The man of apostasy [Antichrist], who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians..." (Dialogue With Trypho, 110).

Melito (100-170): "For with all his strength did the adversary assail us, even then giving a foretaste of his activity among us [during the Great Tribulation] which is to be without restraint..." (Discourse on the Resurrection, i, 8).

Irenaeus (140-202): "And they [the ten kings who shall arise] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight" (Against Heresies, V, 26).

Tertullian (150-220): "The souls of the martyrs are taught to wait [Rev. 6]...that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God..." (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, 25).

Hippolytus (160-240): "...the one thousand two hundred and three score days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains" (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61).

Cyprian (200-258): "The day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of the Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle..." (Epistle, 55, 1).

Victorinus (240-303): "...the times of Antichrist, when all shall be injured" (Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John, VI, 5).

Lactantius (240-330): "And power will be given him [Antichrist] to desolate the whole earth for forty-two months....When these things shall so happen, then the righteous and the followers of truth shall separate themselves from the wicked, and flee into solitudes" (Divine Institutes, VII, 17).

Athanasius (293-373): "...they have not spared Thy servants, but are preparing the way for Antichrist" (History of the Arians, VIII, 79).

Ephraim the Syrian (306-373): "Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear..." (Sermo Asceticus, I).

Pseudo-Ephraem (4th century?): "...there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one [Antichrist]..." (On the Last Times, the Antichrist etc., 2).

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386): "The Church declares to thee the things concerning Antichrist before they arrive...it is well that, knowing these things, thou shouldest make thyself ready beforehand" (Catechetical Lectures, 15, 9).

Jerome (340-420): "I told you that Christ would not come unless Antichrist had come before" (Epistle 21).

Chrysostom (345-407): "...the time of Antichrist...will be a sign of the coming of Christ..." (Homilies on First Thessalonians, 9).

Augustine (354-430): "But he who reads this passage [Daniel 12], even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church..." (The City of God, XX, 23).

Venerable Bede (673-735): "[The Church's triumph will] follow the reign of Antichrist" (The Explanation of the Apocalypse, II, 8).

Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153): "There remains only one thing----that the demon of noonday [Antichrist] should appear, to seduce those who remain still in Christ..." (Sermons on the Song of Songs, 33, 16).

Roger Bacon (1214-1274): "...because of future perils [for the Church] in the times of Antichrist..." (Opus Majus, II, p. 634).

John Wycliffe (1320-1384): "Wherefore let us pray to God that he keep us in the hour of temptation, which is coming upon all the world, Rev. iii" (Writings of the Reverend and Learned John Wickliff, D.D., p. 155).

Martin Luther (1483-1546): "[The book of Revelation] is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future, and especially of tribulations and disasters for the Church..." (Works of Martin Luther, VI, p. 481).

William Tyndale (1492-1536): "...antichrist preacheth not Peter's doctrine (which is Christ's gospel)...he compelleth all men with violence of sword" (Greenslade's The Work of William Tindale, p. 127).

Menno Simons (1496-1561): "...He will appear as a triumphant prince and a victorious king to bring judgment. Then will those who persecute us look upon Him..." (Complete Writings..., p. 622).

John Calvin (1509-1564): "...we ought to follow in our inquiries after Antichrist, especially where such pride proceeds to a public desolation of the church" (Institutes, Vol. 2, p. 411).

John Knox (1515-1572): "...the great love of God towards his Church, whom he pleased to forewarn of dangers to come, so many years before they come to pass...to wit, The man of sin, The Antichrist, The Whore of Babylon" (The History of the Reformation..., I, p. 76).

John Fox (1516-1587): "...that second beast prophesied to come in the later time of the Church...to disturb the whole Church of Christ..." (Acts and Monuments, I).

Roger Williams (1603-1683): "Antichrist...hath his prisons, to keep Christ Jesus and his members fast..." (The Bloody Tenent, of Persecution, p. 153).

John Bunyan (1628-1688): "He comes in flaming fire [as Judge] and...the trump of God sounds in the air, the dead to hear his voice..." (The Last Four Things: Of Judgment).

Daniel Whitby (1638-1726): "...after the Fall of Antichrist, there shall be such a glorious State of the Church...so shall this be the Church of Martyrs, and of those who had not received the Mark of the Beast..." (A Paraphrase and Commentary, p. 696).

Increase Mather (1639-1723): "That part of the world [Europe] was to be principally the Seat of the Church of Christ during the Reign of Antichrist" (Ichabod, p. 64).

Matthew Henry (1662-1714): "Those who keep the gospel in a time of peace shall be kept by Christ in an hour of temptation [Revelation 3:10]" (Commentary, VI, p. 1134).

Cotton Mather (1663-1728): "...that New Jerusalem, whereto the Church is to be advanced, when the Mystical Babylon shall be fallen" (The Wonders of the Invisible World, p. 3).

Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758): "...continuance of Antichrist's reign [when the Church is persecuted] did not commence before the year of Christ 479..." (A History of the Work of Redemption, p. 217).

John Wesley (1703-1791): "'The stars shall...fall from heaven,' (Revelation, vi. 13)....And then shall be heard the universal shout...followed by the 'voice of the archangel,'...'and the trumpet of God'...(I Thessalonians iv. 16)." (The Works of the Rev. John Wesley, A.M., Vol. V, p. 173).

George Whitefield (1714-1770): "...'while the bridegroom tarried,' in the space of time which passeth between our Lord's ascension and his coming again to judgment..." (Gillies' Memoirs of Rev. George Whitefield, p. 471).

David Brainerd (1718-1747): "...and I could not but hope, that the time was at hand, when Babylon the great would fall and rise no more" (Memoirs..., p. 326).

Morgan Edwards (1722-1795): "[Antichrist] has hitherto assumed no higher title than 'the vicar general of Christ on earth'..." (Two Academical Exercises etc., p. 20).

John Newton (1725-1807): "'Fear not temptation's fiery day, for I will be thy strength and stay. Thou hast my promise, hold it fast, the trying hour [Revelation 3:10] will soon be past'" (The Works of the Rev. John Newton, Vol. II, p. 152).

Adam Clarke (1762-1832): "We which are alive, and remain...he [Paul] is speaking of the genuine Christians which shall be found on earth when Christ comes to judgment" (Commentary, Vol. VI, p. 550).

Charles G. Finney (1792-1875): "Christ represents it as impossible to deceive the elect. Matt. 24:24. We have seen that the elect unto salvation includes all true christians." (Lectures on Systematic Theology, p. 606).

Charles Hodge (1797-1878): "...the fate of his Church here on earth...is the burden of the Apocalypse" (Systematic Theology, Vol. III, p. 827).

Albert Barnes (1798-1870): "...he will keep them in the future trials that shall come upon the world [Revelation 3:10]" (Notes on the New Testament, p. 94).

George Mueller (1805-1898): "The Scripture declares plainly that the Lord Jesus will not come until the Apostacy shall have taken place, and the man of sin...shall have been revealed..." (Mrs. Mueller's Missionary Tours and Labours, p. 148).

Benjamin W. Newton (1805-1898): "The Secret Rapture was bad enough, but this [John Darby's equally novel idea that the book of Matthew is on 'Jewish' ground instead of 'Church' ground] was worse" (unpublished Fry MS. and F. Roy Coad's Prophetic Developments, p. 29).

R. C. Trench (1807-1886): "...the Philadelphian church...to be kept in temptation, not to be exempted from temptation..." (Seven Churches of Asia, pp. 183-184).

Carl F. Keil (1807-1888): "...the persecution of the last enemy Antichrist against the church of the Lord..." (Biblical Commentary, Vol. XXXIV, p. 503).

Henry Alford (1810-1871): "Christ is on His way to this earth [I Thessalonians 4:17]..." (The New Testament for English Readers, Vol. II, p. 491).

John Lillie (1812-1867): "In his [Antichrist's] days was to be the great----the last----tribulation of the Church" (Second Thessalonians, pp. 537-538).

F. L. Godet (1812-1900): "The gathering of the elect [Matthew24:31]...is mentioned by St. Paul, 1 Thess. 4:16, 17, 2 Thess. 2:1..." (Commentary on Luke, p. 452).

Robert Murray McCheyne (1813-1842): "Christians must have 'great tribulation'; but they come out of it" (Bonar's Memoirs of McCheyne, p. 26).

S. P. Tregelles (1813-1875): "The Scripture teaches the Church to wait for the manifestation of Christ. The secret theory bids us to expect a coming before any such manifestation" (The Hope of Christ's Second Coming, p. 71).

Franz Delitzsch (1813-1890): "...the approaching day is the day of Christ, who comes...for final judgment" (Commentary on Hebrews, Vol. II, p. 183).

C. J. Ellicott (1819-1905): "[I Thessalonians 4:17] 'to meet the Lord,' as He is coming down to earth..." (Commentary on the Thessalonian Epistles, p. 66).

Nathaniel West (1826-1906): "[The Pre-Trib Rapture] is built on a postulate, vicious in logic, violent in exegesis, contrary to experience, repudiated by the early Church, contradicted by the testimony of eighteen hundred years...and condemned by all the standard scholars of every age" (The Apostle Paul and the "Any Moment" Theory, p. 30).

Alexander Maclaren (1826-1910): "He will keep us in the midst of, and also from, the hour of temptation [Revelation 3:10]" (The Epistles of John, Jude and the Book of Revelation, p. 266).

J. H. Thayer (1828-1901): "To keep [Revelation 3:10]:...by guarding, to cause one to escape in safety out of" (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 622).

Adolph Saphir (1831-1891): "...the advent of the Messiah...to which both the believing synagogue and the church of the Lord Jesus Christ are looking..." (The Epistle to the Hebrews, Vol. I, p. 96).

M. R. Vincent (1834-1922): "The preposition ['from'] implies, not a keeping from temptation, but a keeping in temptation [Revelation 3:10]..." (Word Studies..., p. 466).

William J. Erdman (1834-1923): "...by the 'saints' seen as future by Daniel and by John are meant 'the Church'..." (Notes on the Book of Revelation, p. 47).

H. Grattan Guinness (1835-1910): "...the Church is on earth during the action of the Apocalypse..." (The Approaching End of the Age, p. 136).

H. B. Swete (1835-1917): "The promise [of Revelation 3:10], as Bede says, is 'not indeed of your being immune from adversity, but of not being overcome by it'" (The Apocalypse of St. John, p. 56).

William G. Moorehead (1836-1914): "...the last days of the Church's deepest humiliation when Antichrist is practicing and prospering (Dan. viii:12)..." (Outline Studies in the New Testament, p. 123).

A. H. Strong (1836-1921): "The final coming of Christ is referred to in: Mat. 24:30...[and] I Thess. 4:16..." (Systematic Theology, p. 567).

Theodor Zahn (1838-1933): "...He will preserve...at the time of the great temptation [Revelation 3:10]..." (Zahn-Kommentar, I, p. 305).

I. T. Beckwith (1843-1936): "The Philadelphians...are promised that they shall be carried in safety through the great trial [Revelation 3:10], they shall not fall" (The Apocalypse of John, p. 484).

Robert Cameron (1845-1922): "The Coming for, and the Coming with, the saints, still persists, although it involves a manifest contradiction, viz., two Second Comings which is an absurdity" (Scriptural Truth About the Lord's Return, p. 16).

B. B. Warfield (1851-1921): "...He shall come again to judgment...to close the dispensation of grace..." (Biblical Doctrines, p. 639).

David Baron (1855-1926): "(Tit. ii. 13), for then the hope as regards the church, and Israel, and the world, will be fully realised" (Visions of Zechariah, p. 323).

Philip Mauro (1859-1952): "...'dispensational teaching' is modernistic in the strictest sense...it first came into existence within the memory of persons now living..." (The Gospel of the Kingdom, p. 8).

A. T. Robertson (1863-1934): "In Rev. 3:10...we seem to have the picture of general temptation with the preservation of the saints" (A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, p. 596).

R. C. H. Lenski (1864-1936): "...it [Philadelphia] shall be kept untouched and unharmed by the impending dangers [Revelation 3:10]" (The Interpretation of St. John's Revelation, pp. 146-146).

William E. Biederwolf (1867-1939): "Godet, like most pre-millennial expositors, makes no provision for any period between the Lord's coming for His saints and His coming with them..." (The Second Coming Bible, p. 385).

Alexander Reese (1881-1969): "...we quite deliberately reject the dispensational theories, propounded first about 1830..." (The Approaching Advent of Christ, p. 293).

Norman S. MacPherson (1899-1980): "...the view that the Church will not pass into or through the Great Tribulation is based largely upon arbitrary interpretations of obscure passages" (Triumph Through Tribulation, p. 5).

 2007/7/13 2:58





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