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 Re:

Quote:
Let's look at what the abomination of desolation is.

[i]"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)[/i]" (Matthew 24:15)

Right away we know that the abomination of desolation is something you will tangibly see standing in the holy place, the temple.



Not necessarily tangible and not necessarily the kind of "temple" most people think of.

"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." (LUK 17:21)

"But he spake of the temple of his body." (JOHN 2:21)

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? [b]If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.[/b]"

The believer [i][b]is[/b][/i] the Temple and the Holy Place is now in the circumsized heart.

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" (I COR 6:19)

"Now therefore [b]ye are[/b] no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of [b]the household of God[/b]; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; [b]In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.[/b]" (EPH 2:19-22)

"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." (REV 21:22)

"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [b]I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts[/b]; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." (JER 31:33)

"Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another." (ROM 2:15)

Believers are the Temple of the Lord. His Holy Spirit shekinah glory inhabits the Holy Place within us.

Jesus uses the word "abomination" twice in the gospels (maybe someone fluent in Greek can let me know if it's a direct translation?)

"And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for [b]that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God[/b]." (LUK 16:15)

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" (MAT 24:15)

"But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:" (MAR 13:14)

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." (II THE 2:3-4)

 2007/7/12 0:45
Eli_Barnabas
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Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

I suppose "hearing" of wars and rumors of wars is symbolic too, right brother? ;)


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Eli Brayley

 2007/7/12 0:50Profile
Eli_Barnabas
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 Re:

Or "seeing" the armies surround "Jerusalem"... since we are the New Jerusalem He must mean the spiritual armies surrounding the Church. Correct? :)

You have to be consistent, Corey. I find Preterists are terrible for picking and choosing what works for them regardless of context or consistency.

Love you brother!


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Eli Brayley

 2007/7/12 0:53Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Or "seeing" the armies surround "Jerusalem"... since we are the New Jerusalem He must mean the spiritual armies surrounding the Church. Correct? :)



"[b]For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places[/b]. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints." (EPH 6:12-18)

Quote:
You have to be consistent, Corey. I find Preterists are terrible for picking and choosing what works for them regardless of context or consistency.



Is that consistent enough for the context we're discussing?

Love you, too.

 2007/7/12 1:09









 Re:

Tim LaHaye wrote, "no single verse specifically states Christ will come before the Tribulation to rapture the Church."

First read this quote on this first website years ago but don't know what page.

http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/

But it's still on this one.

http://www.clearerview.org/view/?pageID=139274

 2007/7/12 2:00









 Re: Strange Sounds from the Pretribulational Camp -brayley


Eli said

Quote:
I suppose "hearing" of wars and rumors of wars is symbolic too, right brother? ;-)

Eli,

I've thought about Corey's point recently, and wondered if this is not just exactly what it means, that the man of sin would be revealed as the actual heartstate of 'the church' (small c)?

Perhaps things have to get considerably worse than they are.... the falling away, perhaps offering some disappointed church attenders a fresh opportunity to find God outside the institution of 'church'?


Then, I wanted to mention this in reply to Smokey's post, that when the believers rise to join the Lord in the air, Who is coming with those already asleep in Him, it will leave those on the earth who have not (? yet) believed. I had always imagined they had missed the boat, but now I wonder if the Lord's return [i]does[/i] give some the opportunity to repent?

I suppose this would be consistent with the first resurrection of some at the end of the thousand years of His reign, along with the first resurrection of all dead who had never believed, who, with those who did not believe during the millennium of peace, by that time will all be dead also.

Is it at the ending of the millennial age of peace, that the angel finally reaps the just from among the unjust?

I had never read that as something that happens as it were 'in heaven', but I see that perhaps it does not happen 'on earth'.

 2007/7/12 6:12









 Re: Strange Sounds from the Pretribulational Camp -brayley


Bro IRONMAN,

I do acknowledge that the verse mentioning the beheaded could be read as if it is separating them from all the others who are also already dead, but there is no-where else the implication in scripture, that only some of those who died in Christ will reign with Him. All other verses include us all, [u]if[/u] we fell asleep in Him.

Perhaps this is another way we will know He is coming... that the dead will rise first, presumably in their resurrection bodies, and we (if we were still alive) will [u]see[/u] them - but perhaps [i]not[/i] - then those who are alive will rise to join Him / them. Perhaps people will just literally dis-appear. :-o

 2007/7/12 6:17
Eli_Barnabas
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Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

On an interesting side note, there is nothing in Scripture that indicates the saints will disappear. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 says we'll be changed, but disappearing is simply not there. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 says we'll be taken by force, but nothing about is disappearing. I've thought about where pretribulationists might have gotten the idea from, and I think the only possible place (apart from Margaret MacDonald's prophecy) is from the story of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. When they came out the water Philip was [i]harpazo[/i]. However, the word [i]harpazo[/i] itself has nothing to do with secrecy, as Acts 8:39 even has to clarify that the eunuch "saw him no more". [i]Harpazo[/i] simply means to 'take by force' and is used in several other verses that have nothing to do with secrecy:

[i]"When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone."[/i] (John 6:15)

[i]"And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle."[/i] (Acts 23:10)

Therefore to build such a fundamental doctrine upon such a abstract and verseless foundation is entirely dangerous.


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Eli Brayley

 2007/7/12 12:13Profile
Eli_Barnabas
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Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
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 Re:

Quote:
I've thought about Corey's point recently, and wondered if this is not just exactly what it means, that the man of sin would be revealed as the actual heartstate of 'the church' (small c)?



It cannot be, sister, because Paul says that there will be BOTH a great apostasy AND the coming of the man of sin. They are distinct.

I believe with all my heart that if the Scriptures were meant to be taken allegorically Jesus or the Holy Spirit would have told us (like in Daniel 7:16), because it makes the Bible extremely confusing; you don't know what is real or not. There is far too much detail concerning the final years on earth and the antichrist that the only accurate conclusion is that these things are spoken of literally. For example, how many different ways could the Holy Spirit have told us three and a half years? Jesus and Paul REPEATED what Daniel said, they did not INTERPRET what he said, which I know they would have, had it meant to be allegorical.

The early church fathers who were discipled by the apostles believed in the future and literal fulfillment of prophecy. That says a lot.

Blessings Dorcas!
-Eli


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Eli Brayley

 2007/7/12 12:21Profile
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sis Dorcas
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

Quote:
I do acknowledge that the verse mentioning the beheaded could be read as if it is separating them from all the others who are also already dead, but there is no-where else the implication in scripture, that only some of those who died in Christ will reign with Him. All other verses include us all, if we fell asleep in Him.



Then who is it who is ruled over during this period? i believe it is those saints who were not martyred and whoever is left alive when Christ returns who hasn't taken the mark. i say this because everyone gets different rewards according to the works done. Some will rule, some will get new names, some will eat of the hidden manna and so on. in fact i would submit to you that there is a scripture which implies that only a certain group of people will rule with Christ. Let us look at the Letter to the church of Laodicea in Revelation 3.

[i][b]19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.[/b][/i][u][i][b]21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.[/b][/i][/u]

(Emphasis Added)

This reward is not extended to any of the other Churches and this to me says we will not all be the same in Heaven. i would not expect to have the same Glory as Paul unless i did what he did and endured what he did for the Christ, would you?

also we could look at Revelation 6 which reads:[b]9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.[/b]

not every saint is under the altar but those who were slain for the testimony which they held. another distinction.

Then also in Revelation 12:[b]11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. [/b]

So here again the issue of overcoming comes up and seems to speak of martyrdom in this sense. However if we look up the word overcome in the Revelation we find that there are different rewards for overcoming according to what is written to the Churches.in that 1000 yr reign, there will be need for people to do various things in this kingdom and so not everyone will rule, some will be subject and work doing whatever God has in mind for them to do. just as there are different responsibilities in or government, so shall it be in those days. These may not necessarily mean death physically but we know when we come to Christ we must die to ourselves and the world spiritually that we may live in Christ. SOmehow i think Revelation 12 in speaking of how one overcomes qualifies all the other passages which speak of overcoming by outlining what is required (death) and what may be expected of us when push comes to shove, that being physical death. Of course one can't die physically except he has died spiritually first for the physical death can only be affected by a spiritual one which precedes it.

Either way, there will be no contention between ruler and subject as those who are there in those days will be unified in Christ.

then again i don't think there is a limit to what rewards one can receive for overcoming so we can get the new name, be a pillar in the temple, rule over nations, sit in His Throne etc...and in Revelation 21 it says this:

[b]7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; F33 and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. [/b]

and then there are those who will just barely make it into heaven...

oh the depth of the widsom and knowledge of God! [i][b]who[/b][/i] indeed has been His counselor?

and to bro Corey

indeed there is a spiritual aspect to what is written but there is also a physical one too which we must consider because whatever is spiritual does have a manifestation in the physical. As Paul said, God who is unseen has made Himself known by the things He has Made. As surely as seals are opened, trumpets blown and such which we may not see physically, there is a corresponding physical manifestation which happens.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/7/12 14:04Profile





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