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IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Jaysaved

Quote:
It is symbolic.



somehow bro, i don't think so and disagree with the commentary you posted. it seems to me that the honour of Ruling is given those who have been beheaded specifically. However among those who are resurrected are those who died for Him. Then again i could be wrong and if so may God correct me because He knows i'm not trying to be deceived. Either way, those which died for Him (whether that is the beheaded only or those slain in other ways) will be the ones to Rule with HIm SPiritually and Physically.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/7/11 20:04Profile
narrowpath
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Joined: 2005/1/9
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 Re:

Hi Phil,
I like your honesty and humility in your statement. It is really a controversal subject and I do not want to be too dogmatic about it either lest I am proven wrong.

The future will give us the answer. Let's see to it that we are prepared either way be it for the rapture or tribulation.

narrowpath

 2007/7/11 20:05Profile
Eli_Barnabas
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Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Dear Phil,

Thank you for your honest post. God bless you. Let me tell you brother that God wants you to understand more than you do want to understand! He will send His Spirit to those willing to have the truth.

Brother, did you know that the early Church fathers held to a future seventieth week and antichrist, as well as a post-tribulational rapture and a literal thousand year Kingdom on earth? It's fascinating to read them! Polycarp was a disciple of the Apostle John, and Iranaeus was the disciple of Polycarp, and Hippolytus was the discple of Iranaeus. Each of these men taught the above belief, as John did. Many other Ante-Nicene fathers held the same belief, because that was what was passed down by the Apostles.

Only after the Roman Catholic Church began to gain dominance was the futuristic view discarded for a KINGDOM NOW mentality. Through the middle ages and the reformation, Christians believed in a post-tribulational rapture but after a symbolic (Church age) tribulation, and no future Kingdom. Reformers believed antichrist was the Roman Catholic Church. So though they were post-tribulational, they still were not complete in their apostolic understanding because of their Roman Catholic eschatological roots.

Interestingly enough, since the re-interest the Church has had with Israel as a people, the Church returned to a futuristic view of prophecy, believing the Scriptures for what it simply says. No one can deny the clearness of Scripture when it speaks of the events that are to take place under antichrist. The Holy Spirit is very specific and means what He says when He says it. He is always incredibly accurate.

Neither Nero nor the destruction of the temple in 70 AD could have fulfilled the prophetic Scriptures about antichrist. Nero doesn't even come close to the description. In 70 AD there was no abomination of desolation, and the fact that Israel is now a nation again reveals to us God's continuing plan for them and for the world in the light of the prophetic Word. Things are not finished yet.

So no, the early church belief was not made up by Jesuit priests! It was given by God through Christ to the Apostles for which we now "earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints." What WAS made up later was preterism and amillennialism by the Roman Catholic Church, and pretribulationism by the Catholic Apostolic Church in the 1800's, promoted by Edward Irving and John Darby. That's the facts.

The devil has had his hand in confusing the prophetic Scriptures for too long. Let us thrown off all falsity and embrace the truth of God by the Holy Spirit. "What saith the Scriptures?"


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Eli Brayley

 2007/7/11 20:11Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Dom
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

the issue can indeed be contensious however i bless God for pruning me such that contention is no longer a motive for posting.

indeed the beast will cause all who don't take his mark to be killed though i think that is more like a law being passed. Nebuchadnezzar did the same thing but i doubt very much he got hold of [i]everyone[/i]who didn't worship the beast...i think some will survive this and be alive to watch Christ return. There are those who will be killed. Perhaps my view on this is more as a result of my rapture as it were being in death as opposed to being caught up; ie the mortal becoming immortal.

and then on the issue of the fine linen, angels wear the same clothing. When Daniel saw Gabriel, he was dressed in linen so we can also add angels to this mix of those returning to vanquish the enemy.

now another thing about the book of the Revelation which we must consider is this. it is not to be read solely as a linear account of the end times. As far as God is concerned, past present and future are all before Him...at the same time. There is a portion in Revelation in which John says he saw a multitude which he couldn't number from all the tribes of the earth. This is every saint from the first to the last and yet they are all in heaven while the trib is going down. You see Christ is He who was, is and is to come and it is so with anything associated with Him. See we are seated in heavenly places with Him already and as such our view of the Scriptures should be His view with all things, past present and future being before us. In this way, those things which don't fit into a linear timeline (and rightly so) are seen in the Proper Perspective.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/7/11 20:25Profile
IRONMAN
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sis Dorcas
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

i see your point and i would say that it seems to me that these slain are part of the first resurrection which implies a second which involves the rest of the dead in Christ which live after the 1000 yrs. i suppose then that the better resurrection would be one in which he who is resurrected is raised up with more Glory due to having done more work or endured more for Christ. This is what Paul talked about being torn about whether to stay and work more or go on HOme to be with our Lord.

to me this is what the better resurrection is, one in which the saint has more GLory. i don't think we can use the resurrection unto condemnation as something to which we can compare the Resurrection unto Eternal Life and say it is worse, what is so bad about Eternal Life?

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/7/11 20:35Profile
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Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
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 Re:

brother eli,

thank you so much for your response. i have to admit, i have never read much of the church fathers. i have seen some quotes about them talking about a future head leader (antichrist) who is like satan incarnate on the earth (i believe that i am wording it right.. i hope).

i know that the many reformers were historic protestants that believed that the papal line was antichrist, but i didn't see where they believed in a 7 year tribulation period.

thank you for your beliefs on this. i guess the only question i have is...

* wasn't the abomination of desolation that the gospels wrote about the roman army standing in the holy place?? (matt 24:15; mark 13:14; luke 21:20-24)

like i said, i don't know much, but i would lean personally toward the historicism or partial preterism, but i am totally not dogmatic on this issue at all.

thanks for the talking about this subject..

 2007/7/11 22:43Profile
Eli_Barnabas
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Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Dear Phil,

Let's look at what the abomination of desolation is.

[i]"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"[/i] (Matthew 24:15)

Right away we know that the abomination of desolation is something you will tangibly see standing in the holy place, the temple.

[i]"But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, let (him that readeth understand,)"[/i] (Mark 13:14)

Mark tells us that it will stand where it ought not. Again, the holy place. (See also Daniel 11:31 and Revelation 13:13-14)

Now here is where people make a mistake. They try and take Luke 21:20 and apply it to the abomination of desolation, thinking Luke is a parallel discourse with Matthew and Mark. This is unwarranted, for armies surrounding Jerusalem has nothing to do with standing in the holy place. The fact that the verse says that "desolation thereof is nigh" simply means the destruction of Jerusalem is at hand. It is not a reference to the abomination of desolation. There is a key that helps to understand this a few verses earlier:

In Luke 21, Jesus begins by describing some birthpangs. Earthquakes, famines, wars, etc. This is parallel with Matthew and Mark. However, following the predictions of the birthpangs in Luke 21, Jesus says this: [i][b]"But before all these..."[/i][/b] (21:12) BEFORE these birthpangs this will happen: Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies, etc.

Now compare with Matthew 24. Jesus starts by speaking of the birthpangs: earthquakes, famines, wars, etc. Then what does He say? [i][b]"Then..." [/i][/b](24:9) Meaning a continual narrative; THEN, AFTER THIS, and the discourse continues. Luke jumps back BEFORE the birthpangs, Matthew continues on FROM them; all the way to the abomination of desolation. Check it out for yourself.

Daniel 12:11 tells us that from the time the abomination of desolation is set up there is only 1290 days left (or three and a half years). This is not yet fulfilled, for the angel tells Daniel, [i]"Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end."[/i] This is a futuristic promise; it simply has not happened yet.

Paul was perfectly in tune with the Spirit on this issue. In 2 Thessalonians, he writes:

[i]"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"[/i] (2 Thessalonians 2:1-5)

The beloved Apostle is so clear hear. Brother, don't be deceived in any way thinking that the day of Christ HAS COME or IS IMMINENT. THAT DAY shall not come until the man of sin is revealed (yet future) who sets himself up in the temple as God, which is the abomination of desolation. I exhort you, brother, to hear wisely the words of Paul.

The Lord bless you,
Yours in loving service to Jesus,
-Eli


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Eli Brayley

 2007/7/11 23:46Profile
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Joined: 2005/2/21
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 Re: Strange Sounds from the Pretribulational Camp -brayley

I feel a need to wade in here with my 2 cents worth. Just after becoming a christian 12 years ago(I was 40 something) a Christian friend asked " Are you pre-trib or mid-trib," and I had no idea what he was talking about. I have since done some prayerful study on the subject, and have come to the conclusion that the pre-trib rapture doctrine is just a repeat of the enemies first lie found in Gen 3:4.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

If the Church has been raptured before the tribulation begins, why are we told:
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
If the Church has been raptured and is in heaven, why did Jesus make these statements??

I believe the rapture happens here:
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

There is another event that happens around the time of the rapture that I have never seen mentioned, and that is the destruction of the wicked mentioned here:

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Blessings Greg

Just to add a P>S> here..In Mat:13:49 is states that the wicked are severed FROM AMONG the JUST.
I believe that the JUST are believers that populate the world at the begining of the millenium, and have not been myrtered during the tribulation period. 8-)


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Greg

 2007/7/11 23:51Profile
Eli_Barnabas
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 Re:

Amen Greg.


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Eli Brayley

 2007/7/11 23:54Profile
Smokey
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Joined: 2005/2/21
Posts: 417
Edmonton Alberta Cda.

 Re: Strange Sounds from the Pretribulational Camp -brayley

Also;

A pet teaching of the pre-trib rapture folk is that any christians,saints, mentioned after revelation Chapter 4 were saved during the tribulation period. In 12 years of study, I have not found a single verse of scripture that supports that claim. These verses attest to the fact that the gospel is being preached.

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

However, there is no scripture that any respond, instead you read:

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.


In all three scriptures it states that they "repented not".

Blessings Greg :-(


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Greg

 2007/7/12 0:05Profile





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