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Revelation 20 is not talking about a spiritual resurrection nor a spiritual death but a real and physical resurrection of our bodies at the time of the end, and a real and physical death in the lake of fire that burns forever.

"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (JOHN 6:54)

Jesus didn't say "the last day before the millennium". He said the "last day".

"He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." {JOHN 12:22)

Die to the world and inherit eternal life.

"Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (MAT 18:18)

When I was Baptised, I died (the first time) and was resurrected. After I die physically (the second death), the Lord will raise me again in a new, glorified body - on the last day.

Those who aren't revived during their earthly life, who don't experience the spiritual "first death" and "first resurrection", are doomed to both physical death here and spiritual death in the hereafter.

To spiritualize this is to miss the great theme of resurrection promise throughout the entire Bible.

Eli, I truly love you man, but you've got to realize that this phyiscal, material, earthly Kingdom you're looking forward to runs along the same carnal vein as the Pharisees'.

They thought Messiah would kick gentile butt like David and be as beautiful, wealthy, and wise as Solomon. He would restore Israel's former glory and the heathen nations would despair and pay tribute...

But He never warred like David - he turned the other cheek and was cruxified.

And He never ruled Israel from an ivory throne in Jerusalem - He served them on His bloody knees from Gethsemene to Calvary.

When the counterfiet comes, he'll probably be as beautiful as Solomon and as dangerous as David - and most will call him messiah.

 2007/7/11 17:41

Joined: 2006/4/5
Posts: 24
Hull, East Yorkshire, England


Thanks Ironman for your answer to my question.

This is obviously a contentious issue, and one we all benefit from avoiding conflict over. I for one am genuine about wanting to know the truth about Christ's return, and I'm in no hurry to jump to one particular conclusion, as I don't really see any great benefit from holding to an interpretation so fast that I close myself down to the possibility of being wrong. As a human being, I reserve the right to be wrong!!!

That said, and as I stated at the end of my previous post, I am undecided on the issue, BUT lean heavily to the PreTrib side. I don't discount the possibility of the PostTrib being correct, or the MidTrib for that matter. But I am most happy with the PreTrib conclusions that I have come across so far. I think any honest Christian who has seriously considered the subject, and has read both (or all three - or more!) sides, must agree that each point of view has its strong points, and its weak points. Otherwise, what would the argument be about? But when it all boils down, I think we'll probably find we are all wrong to a greater or lesser degree, about this.

Jesus will appear when He appears, and all we true believers will be glad. I will be glad if it is after the Tribulation I have just endured, even though I will have been wrong (although, if the image of the Beast causes all who do not worship it to be killed (Rev. 13 v. 15), I'm not sure survival is an option - please correct me if I'm wrong), and a PostTribber will be glad if it's before the Tribulation, as he or she won't have any time to argue!! (Twinkle of an eye) Hee, hee!

I repeat, I may be wrong, but I'm having more fun believing (or hoping, should I say - let's face it, whether I believe it one way or the other don't make a whole heap of difference) that Christ could come at any moment, than I would be trying to figure out the number of the name of the beast's Personal Assistant every time there's a change of Administration. I know that's no reason for holding to a serious Theological standpoint, but it's not what I base my opinion on, just a by-product. Yes, it fills me with JOY, the thought that Christ could come tonight!! Maranatha!!! No man knows the day or the hour, and I just can't see how, if we know how many months it is from the revealing of the man of sin to the return of the Lord, that we can say that we don't know. I for one would have an electronic countdown rigged up on my PC, I don't know about you!

Yes, I can see problems with the PreTrib argument, but for my part, there are more problems with the PostTrib. Life is about discovering God and His Truth, and being set free by it, and I find so much more liberty, and my heart is so much more encouraged to seek after Him in the knowledge that today, or tomorrow could be the Day.

That's just my rambling - I'm not trying to persuade anyone, or even argue. I'm not knowledgeable enough to argue convincingly about it, but I am confident enough about my relationship with the Holy Spirit to believe that He is leading me into all Truth, as He promised. I pray He will correct me if necessary.

On parting, I have a question, aimed at anyone who may have an opinion....what is the identity of the armies of heaven who are following Christ in chapter 19 of Revelation, verse 14?

"11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean."

Bearing in mind that "Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints" (v. 8b of the same chapter), it would appear to me that these are the saints of God, whose righteous acts have been judged, and rewarded. Compare Zechariah 14 v. 5b:

"1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake [a] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him."

So, as far as I can see...all the holy ones are fine linen garments...before the Millennial Reign.

Forgive me for being simple, but it looks to me like something's been happening in heaven while the earth's been Tribulating!

Looking forward to any thoughts.

Dominic Spencer

 2007/7/11 18:03Profile

Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924


bro Compliments
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Well according to Matthew 27 there was a resurrection when Christ died. Those saints were those who had died before the time of Grace and had been justified according to the law. These had been held in Abraham's Bosom because they could not go to Heaven until after Christ had died and set them free.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

Farai Bamu

 2007/7/11 19:09Profile

Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924



Compliments wrote:
of course I could be wrong and if so God correct me lest I remain deceived. AMEN.

It's always good to leave that door open, I know I do! In the mean time, we preach what we know to be true, until we are shown differently.

indeed bro Compliments!

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name.

Farai Bamu

 2007/7/11 19:11Profile

Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah


Dear brother Dom,

I repeat, I may be wrong, but I'm having more fun believing (or hoping, should I say - let's face it, whether I believe it one way or the other don't make a whole heap of difference)

I strongly disagree with your last post, for this kind of happy-go-lucky alternative is not given as an option by Jesus. Jesus didn't say: "You'll never figure it out!" or "I've left you in the dark to debate and discuss just for fun what's going to happen in the end." Our Lord told us very clearly and specifically what we were to expect and how we are to prepare for His coming. There is a huge difference between being ready to be whisked away on a cloud and being ready to enter the Olympics in a week. A person entering the Olympics must be prepared to enter fully in the rigors of athletic competition. How much more Christians in the most serious and trying time Christ said would eclipse anything of it's kind?

My dear brother, and everyone, I would challenge you to seriously reject this contemporary mindset that the Church has adopted. It is ungodly and not in line with the prophetic plan of God. Let us rather study the Word and set our hearts to understand like Daniel did, praying that the Holy Spirit would reveal all things to us, even the "things to come."

Much love,

Eli Brayley

 2007/7/11 19:19Profile

Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924


bro Corey

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

you know bro corey you have a point that there is a spiritual component to this and bro Eli is right also in that there is a physical component to this. indeed the Messiah came first as the Suffering Servant physically and spiritually and He shall return as King physically and spiritually also to depose the false messiah.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

Farai Bamu

 2007/7/11 19:22Profile

Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1113
Germany NRW

 Re: Strange Sounds from the Pretribulational Camp -brayley

I have switched side from pretrib to posttrib to again pretrib. May I suggest my fellow saints from the Posttrib camp to read this article from

Pre- or Post-Trib Rapture?
The Rapture of the church involves all believers being caught up to heaven—those just resurrected, together with those alive at the time (1 Thes 4:13-18). If it occurs at the beginning of the tribulation period, then clearly Christ’s Second Coming at the end of the Tribulation to rescue Israel in the midst of Armageddon is a separate event. According to Zechariah 14:3-5, “all the saints” must accompany Christ back to earth. But if the Rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation, it must be simultaneous with the Second Coming, making them one event. Which is it: two events separated by seven years, or one event with two diverse purposes?

This question, though it has nothing to do with the gospel of salvation, divides much of the evangelical church. Happily, it can be settled rather easily. The descriptions in Scripture of the Rapture and Second Coming respectively are so different in so many details that they could not possibly be describing the same occurrence. We can’t cover all of these distinctions, but here are a few:

1) At the Rapture, Christ does not return to earth but catches believers up to meet Him above the earth, taking them directly to heaven: “I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (Jn 14:3); “caught meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Thes 4:17).

In contrast, at the Second Coming Christ returns to this earth to rule Israel and the world from David’s throne in Jerusalem: “his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem” (Zec 14:4); “the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end” (Lk 1:32, 33); “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him....The armies which are in heaven followed him....Out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and shall rule them with a rod of iron” (Rv 19:11-15).

2) At the Rapture there is a resurrection of all believers who have died up to that time: “the dead shall be raised incorruptible” (1 Cor 15:52, 53); “the dead in Christ shall rise first...” (1 Thes 4:16).

In contrast, at the Second Coming there is no resurrection until Antichrist is defeated, he and the false prophet have been “cast alive into a lake of fire” (Rv 19:20) and Satan has been bound in the “bottomless pit [for] a thousand years” (20:1-3) —none of which is even remotely related to the rapture of believers to heaven. Then, to “the first resurrection”which occurred at the Rapture are added a unique group: “them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands...they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years” (4, 5).

3) At the Rapture, the bodies of living believers (like those who are resurrected) will be changed to become immortal: “We shall not all sleep [i.e., die], but we shall all be changed...the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we [who are living] shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality” (1 Cor 15:51-53); “we which are alive...shall be caught up together with them [the resurrected saints] meet the Lord in the air [clearly requiring immortal bodies]” (1 Thes 4:17).

In contrast, at the Second Coming all of the saints return with Christ from heaven and will therefore already have been changed into immortality: “the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee” (Zec 14:5); “I saw heaven opened [and one] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood...and the armies which were in heaven followed him [to] smite the nations” (Rv 19:11-15).

4) The Rapture occurs during relative peace and prosperity, when the world does not expect judgment from God: “And as it was in the days of Noah [the last thing they expected was God’s judgment]...they did eat, they drank...married wives...were given in marriage [and as in] the days of Lot...they bought, they sold...planted...builded....Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.” (Lk 17:26-30).

Again in complete contrast, the Second Coming occurs in the midst of the worst war the world has ever seen and following the greatest devastation this planet has ever suffered or ever will: “then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world...nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved” (Mt 24:21, 22); “behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed...power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger....There was a great earthquake...every mountain and island were moved out of their places...[men] hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks...for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” (Rv 6:8-17); “and the four angels were slay the third part of men” (9:15); “and the...sea...became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. And...the rivers and fountains of waters...became blood...the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; were scorched with great heat...and...there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth....And every island fled away and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail [of large stones]...every stone about the weight of a talent” (16:3-21); “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True....And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen....And I saw the beast [Antichrist], and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat upon the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and...the false prophet [and they] were cast alive into a lake of fire...” (19:11-21).

5) The Rapture occurs when conditions in the world seem to indicate that all is well, when very few expect Christ to return and He catches even the church by surprise: “of that day and hour knoweth no such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Mt 24:36, 44).

In contrast, when the Second Coming occurs, not even Antichrist is caught by surprise—the many visible signs alert everyone that Christ is right at the door: “when ye shall see all these things, know that it [Christ’s coming] is near, even at the doors” (Mt 24:33); “the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse” (Rv 19:19).

6) The Rapture occurs when the church is sleeping, with little expectation of the Lord’s return: “While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept” (Mt 25:5); “Watch ye therefore...lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping” (Mk 13:35, 36).

In contrast, the Second Coming occurs at the end of the Tribulation in the midst of worldwide devastation and hopeless distress; the Antichrist and his armies are attacking Israel, much of Jerusalem is already captured (Zec 14:1, 2), and Israel is on the verge of annihilation. It is inconceivable that the church, if it were still here, would be slumbering in complacency and under the delusion that “surely Christ wouldn’t come now”!

7) Since the Rapture instantly takes us, without dying, out of this world of sin, pain and sorrow to be forever with Christ and like Him, never more to grieve Him, it is called the “blessed hope”: “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (Ti 2:13); “every man that hath this hope” (1 Jn 3:3).

In contrast, the Second Coming (or a post-trib rapture at that time) could hardly be called a “blessed hope,” inasmuch as very few Christians (if the church were still here) would survive to enjoy it. Having refused to receive the 666 mark of the beast “in their right hand, or in their forehead” and therefore being unable to “buy or sell,” and refusing to “worship the image of the beast [they would] be killed” (Rv 13:15-17). It makes no sense to suggest that if you can secretly eat out of enough garbage pails to avoid starvation and still keep one step ahead of Antichrist’s world police death squads, “Blessed hope! You’ll be raptured at Armageddon!”

8) As for the Rapture, unquestionably, the early church was taught to expect it at any moment and to eagerly watch, wait and look for Christ’s return, when He will catch all believers up into His Father’s house to be with Him eternally: “Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord...” (Lk 12:35, 36); “For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body” (Phil 3:20); “ turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven...even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come” (1 Thes 1:9, 10); “looking for that blessed hope” (Ti 2:13); “unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation” (Heb 9:28). One does not watch, wait and look each day for something that cannot happen until Antichrist’s advent or the end of a seven-year tribulation. Thus, there must be a coming of Christ that could happen at any moment.

In contrast, the Second Coming, by very definition as described in Scripture, cannot be expected momentarily. Therefore, none of the scriptures just quoted concerning watching and waiting and looking for the Lord could refer to the Second Coming or to a post-trib rapture of the church. These scriptures could therefore refer only to a pre-trib rapture.

9) The pre-trib Rapture has a powerful, purifying effect upon those who have this hope in Him. The fact that it is to be expected at any moment can only mean that it must come before Antichrist is revealed and before the Tribulation. If Christ could come at any moment, there is no time to waste, no time to delay witnessing, no time to indulge in sin with the idea of repenting and changing one’s ways later: “And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming” (1 Jn 2:28); “And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure” (3:3).

In contrast, anticipation of the Second Coming (or a post-trib rapture at that time) could hardly have a purifying effect, because it can’t take place for at least seven years—plenty of time to delay witnessing, getting right with the Lord and holy living until later. In fact, the Lord said that believing he couldn’t come at any moment would have the opposite effect from purifying believers: “If that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants...and to eat and drink and to be drunken; the lord of that servant will come at an hour when he is not aware (Mt 24:48, 49; Lk 12:45, 46).

10) The Rapture is not only an event that we are to expect momentarily and to eagerly anticipate, but we are to ask our Lord to come immediately. Here is how the Bible ends: “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come....Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus” (Rv 22:17, 20).

In contrast, the Second Coming is not of such a nature and timing that we could ask Christ to effect it right now. Since Christ obviously cannot return to the earth in judgment to rescue Israel, stop the destruction at Armageddon and destroy the Antichrist along with his kingdom and his armies until the end of the Tribulation, for us to cry out to Christ, “Come, Lord Jesus!” would be like demanding payment on a debt that isn’t due for seven years. Yet, “the Spirit and the bride” do cry out, “Come, Lord Jesus.” We can only conclude that there must be a coming of Christ that could occur at any moment. It cannot be the Second Coming or a post-trib rapture. It can only be a pre-trib rapture.

11) There are at least two events which occur in heaven for which the church must be present and which, therefore, cannot take place until the Rapture occurs: the judgment seat of Christ, and the marriage of the Lamb to His bride: “for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ” (Rom 14:10); “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad” (2 Cor 5:10); “the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted [to] be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white [as a result of her cleansing at the judgment seat of Christ]” (Rv 19:7, 8). Both these events occur prior to Christ’s return to earth and thus demand a prior rapture.

It is clear that the Second Coming cannot occur until these two vital events, which demand the presence of the church in heaven, have taken place. It is only after the Lamb has been married to His bride that she accompanies Him back to earth to rescue Israel and to destroy Antichrist and his armies: “And the armies which were in heaven followed him...clothed in fine linen, white and clean” (Rv 19:14).
We know not why the Bridegroom tarries, but exactly as He foretold, the church is asleep. In that context, our Lord added: “And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him” (Mt 25:6). May each of us be listening eagerly for that cry of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. Indeed, we ought to be sounding it aloud, for the Lord could come at any moment to take us to Himself. So let us watch and wait and look for Him in eager anticipation—and encourage others to do the same. It will have a purifying and motivating effect in our lives.

I think that by no means pre trib is the easy way out. If you do not live in daily devotion to Christ you may miss the rapture. He will come as a thief in the night. How can you explain that Christ will come at an hour unknown when you can count exactly the days from the appearance of the antichrist to the abolishion of the daily sacrifice to the return of Christ in the book of Daniel 12 with is repeated in the gospels and in Rev 12. I believe that the church consisting of believeing Gentiles and believing Jews will be raptured.

We must note that Christ had already brought a perfect sacrifice but stubborn and unbelieving Israel will reestablish the daily sacrifice with the help of the antichrist.
Jesus said John 5:43
I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.
This is the Antichrist!
In the midst of it the great tribulation will start, but it will be also a time of the most heroic christian witness that the world has ever seen through the 144.000 from the 12 named tribes of Israel and those who come to faith in through them. 2/3 of Israel will be killed and the remnant will see Christ return from heaven with the previously resurected saints and those who died in faith during the tribulation.
They will look upon him whom they have pierced (the Jews) and there will be unspeakable weeping. Christ will wipe away all their tears and establish his rule in Zion.

I am not a theologian, but I can see God's wisdom in this. There are still things that I still don't quite understand, but as for now pre trib makes more sense to me.

Well, if I stop blogging one day, I may be raptured - and I hope all of us. If we all go through the tribulation lets keep a register of martyrs on this site and see if anyone of us will be alive at the end - if they don't close the site down.


 2007/7/11 19:31Profile

Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah


Brother, this article is wrong in so many places. Hunt assumes there is such a thing as a pre-trib rapture and then sets about to prove it. All the pretribulational teachers do this. Where did they first originate the idea?

Notice none of the Scriptures teach a pre-trib rapture. Every point He makes is conjecture. My soul is so weary of this false teaching...

Dearest friends, pretribulationism is built on the misundertandings of key Biblical concepts, such as the Church and Israel, the tribulation, the wrath of God and the coming of Christ, etc. It started in the 19th century and now has invaded the Church like yeast in bread because we are now so near to the end and the devil is out to confuse the Church. Lord, please teach Your Church! May we be willing to be taught.

Eli Brayley

 2007/7/11 19:46Profile

 Re: Strange Sounds from the Pretribulational Camp -brayley


Thank you for the gracious reply.... but.... on a simple matter of English analysis, you could move all the clauses in that verse around, and get the interpretation I did - because each 'and' is like.... a full stop.... So it could read....

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.

Then [i]I saw[/i] the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God,

(Then [i]I saw[/i] the souls of those) who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received [i]his[/i] mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

And [u]they[/u] [ALL? (whom I saw)] lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Rev 20:4)

Now please know I am not trying to change what the verse says, and we have to hold it against other verses such as this which I was thinking about recently. Have you ever wondered what is our 'one hope' in Eph 4:4?

I (quickly) decided [u]the[/u] hope is the resurrection of the body after death [i]unto eternal life[/i].

Then, when one reads this:

Hebrews 11:35
Women received their dead raised to life again. And others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.

one might be left asking 'To what other kind of resurrection could one be raised?'

John 5:29, 30
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to [u]the resurrection of condemnation[/u].


 2007/7/11 19:48

Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US


dear brothers and sisters,

i, like some of you, am not that sure about this stuff. i've ben raised pre-trib all my life within the last 3 years, started searching for myself what the scripture says. and i've come to this conclusion... I DON'T KNOW.

i've studied preterism, historicism, futurism, idealism and i have absolutely no idea.

the questions i keep asking is...
* is there gonna be a literal 7 year period?
* didn't the 70th week come after the 69th??
* was nero and/or the papal line antichrist or will there be another like that??
* wasn't preterism and futurism (pre-trib or post-trib) thought up by jesuit priests??

like i said, i have absolutely no idea, but i earnestly desire to know. i just hear a bunch of good arguements on all sides that all i know is that believers will suffer in this world and that we will be raised to be with Christ. Christ will destroy the evil one and cast them in to the lake of fire. beyond that, i don't know anything.

thanks for talking in a nice humble way, it really is nice to hear different views without anyone being dogmatic about this..

 2007/7/11 19:56Profile

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