| Re: Strange Sounds from the Pretribulational Camp -brayley|
Thank you much for your reply. There is food for study there!
If the term "lived" is speaking of resurrection in the second half of the quote, what is it speaking of in the first half?
12 And I saw [u]the dead[/u], small and great, [u]standing before God[/u], and books were opened. ...
15 And anyone [u]not[/u] found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
This suggests that [i]everyone[/i] has now experienced a first resurrection and is being judged according to their works, as written in the books which are opened.
Consistent with Hebrews 9:27, 28
'And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation', those raised in Christ in the first resurrection to reign with Him, need not fear the second death. Those [u]not[/u] raised at that time, do not 'live again' [i]except[/i] to face judgment.
This judgment is something to do with God's wrath, and nothing to do with the tribulation His people have experienced at the hand of the dragon.
Not only those who have been 'beheaded for the witness of Jesus' but '[u]and[/u] for the word of God, [u]and[/u] which had not worshipped the beast, [u]neither[/u] his image, [u]neither[/u] had received his mark upon their foreheads, [u]nor[/u] in their hands;...'
Doesn't this cover [i]everyone[/i] who has persevered in faith?
| 2007/7/11 15:01|
Quote:Has anyone considered that there was a resurrection in the first century?
But I do agree with that quote about those that are martyred for Christ are part of the first resurrection.
| 2007/7/11 15:28|
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
Greetings in Jesus' Name by WHose Blood we are Saved. AMEN
Not only those who have been 'beheaded for the witness of Jesus' but 'and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, nor in their hands;...'
no i don't think so, i think it covers those in the tribulation (beheaded and worshipped not the beast nor took the mark) and those beheaded for His Witness and the Word, not all those who died but specifically those who were beheaded. This is to me like those who for example receive the stone with a new name or those who eat of the hidden manna; there are specific things which must be fulfilled for those benefits to be bestowed and not everyone will do so. it's not a bad thing not to rule with Him 1000yrs but those who are resurrected at that time (those who died in other ways for example) are of the first resurrection and so have no part in the second death.
of course i could be wrong and if so God correct me lest i remain deceived. AMEN.
Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.
| 2007/7/11 15:55||Profile|
| Re: Strange Sounds from the Pretribulational Camp -brayley|
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison," (REV 20:5-7)
"Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God." (LUK 9:60)
Has anyone considered that "dead" can mean more than just a physical corpse in a physical grave?
If Spirit Baptism is "death to the world" then what follows could be the "first resurrection" - all this happens while the physical body is still alive.
The second 'physical' death no longer has power over the Born Again believer.
| 2007/7/11 16:00|
Quote:It's always good to leave that door open, I know I do! In the mean time, we preach what we know to be true, until we are shown differently.
of course I could be wrong and if so God correct me lest I remain deceived. AMEN.
| 2007/7/11 16:04|
Compliments, I have a sincere question for you, not intended for dispute but because I really don't know what your answer would be.
When do we get our Resurrected Glorified bodies ?
And if you don't believe in a future anti-Christ, then what do these verses say to you ?
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
This is the part of Preterism that I don't understand. Sincerely. Annie
| 2007/7/11 16:10|
Cache Valley, Utah
Revelation 20 is not talking about a spiritual resurrection nor a spiritual death but a real and physical resurrection of our bodies at the time of the end, and a real and physical death in the lake of fire that burns forever. To spiritualize this is to miss the great theme of resurrection promise throughout the entire Bible. Consider Job, one of the earliest of records we have of a man who knew God:
[i]"Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock forever!
For I know that my redeemer liveth, [b]and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth[/b]:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, [b]yet in my flesh shall I see God[/b]:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."[/i] (Job 19:23-27)
| 2007/7/11 16:11||Profile|
Now this is the first resurrection, that of the martyrs. [b]Those who were not killed for Him will be raised later,[/b] after the thousand years are over.
I have not studied the specifics of end time events including the millennium as much as I could have so far. But I do agree with that quote about those that are martyred for Christ are part of the first resurrection.
Not long ago I used to believe that only those who where part of the first resurrection were going to be saved from the lake of fire.
Until something sprung up from these verses:
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[b]And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.[/b]
This last sentence gives the impression that these dead who obviously will have no part of the first ressurection can appear in the book of life and thus they will not be cast into the lake of fire but instead have etarnal life.
Pretty contrary to what I used to believe! When I read it now it's so obvious..
| 2007/7/11 16:34||Profile|
Praise God Jeppe.
Tim LaHaye said, "we cannot prove pre-trib with Scripture".
That's what I noticed too, but once you see the truth, then you see "through-out" the Bible from O.T. to New, it never contradicts itself.
Glory to GOD ... Jesus said, "Behold, I have told you ALL things" concerning the last days and His coming.
Bless The Lord.
| 2007/7/11 16:45|
i found it quite interesting that the ones who rule with Christ are those who were beheaded for His sake, those who didn't worship the beast nor receive the mark. There are those who died for Christ in various ways but the specificity of this group is interesting, not even the ones who were crucified as Christ was are in this number! i suppose then these ones who died in different ways will be among those ruled over by Christ and the Parties mentioned in this passage. There is something about beheading...
It is symbolic.
That were beheaded - The word used here - πελεκίζω pelekizō - occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It properly means, to axe, that is, to hew or cut with an axe - from πέλεκυς pelekus, axe. Hence it means to behead with an axe. This was a common mode of execution among the Romans, and doubtless many of the Christian martyrs suffered in this manner; but it cannot be supposed to have been the intention of the writer to confine the rewards of martyrs to those who suffered in this particular way; for this specific and ignominious method of punishment is designated merely as the symbol of any and every kind of martyrdom (Prof. Stuart).
| 2007/7/11 17:20||Profile|