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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Unfortunately many of the men Jesse and others like to use to back their views would be more in line with Calvinism than Pelagianism. One in particular would be Albert Barnes who proclaimed himself to be a four point Calvinist. The point he did not adopt was that of limited atonement.


Limited Atonement does not claim that the power of the atonement is limited, in that any sin is so great that it can not be covered by Christ's sacrifice; however it does claim that it does not extend to all, only to those who God chooses to elect. Limited Atonement is an extension of the doctrine of Unconditional election, but it has more of an emphasis on the atonement of the elect or is mainly limited with the doctrine of the nature of the atonement, what it does and how it is applied. The false doctrine of this theory states that the atonement of Christ literally pays the penalty of the sins that men are liable for, in other words Christ receives the wrath of God for specific sins and that cancels the judgment they had built up. This is because it would be unjust for God to take the place in judgment for those specific sins and continues to condemn them for those sins; therefore, God must necessarily save all the specific people, whose specific sins were specifically forgiven.

Limited Atonement is only effectual after one believes which makes the atonement of Christ a potential work instead of an active work, exclusive and not inclusive, Ones who hold to this doctrine deny the power of Christ' making peace between God and all mankind, while they make atonement to be the salvation of only those who are elected.

Atonement is the translated word kaw-far' from Hebrew to English which means “to cover” of the Jewish Fast of Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). It incorporates the words reconciliation, propitiation (satisfaction) and forgiveness. The work of Christ on His cross makes away for salvation while the salvation it's self comes from the relationship one has with Him and not just in what he did on the cross.

This doctrine of Limited Atonement misinterprets the word atonement to be the salvation of man, when, in actuality, the true meaning is that it is only the taking away of sin, it is the forgiveness if sin, thus making peace between God and man (Col 1:20). Christ's work makes redemption possible for all but guaranteed for only those who have a relationship with Christ.
They claim that the atonement saves man instead of the relationship with Christ. The actual salvation is eternal life (John 17:3).

Justification by faith alone through Christ alone is true with reality, Scripture proves it.
With adding it to your comment does not exclude that Molinist or Armenians don't accept this.

 2007/7/14 13:59Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Whitefield was a five pointer who called Wesley a confused Calvinist because he(Wesley) believed in depravity of man, justification by faith alone through Christ alone.



:-D


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/7/14 14:10Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
While God "loves" all His creation, we must be careful not to blur the lines, and then cry out," all then must be saved", or "God wants all men to be saved."


God wanting to save all does not mean that HE is able.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
And again one must understand that when faced with the dilemma of salvation for all men you must have one of two things-
1)God wants all to be saved, so all will be saved.

2)God wants all to be saved, but man's will is greater than God, and therefore not all are saved.

Man's will is not greater than God, but God will not infringe on it.
That is also why #1 is not true either.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
There are many, many more that show that God does what He will, He alone is God the Creator, and we are man the creation. Problems arise when men from their own desires begin to make man like God, or God like man apart from the testimony of Scripture.


God does what He will and that is keeping man as a free agent. God works with and around this obstacle of man's free will.
[b]Matthew 13:13[/b] [color=990000]Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.[/color]
because they choose not to see.
and hearing because they choose not to hear.

According to your doctrin verse Mat 13:15 it is God who waxt their heart gross and dulled theire hearing theirfore it is God's falt for the not turning to repent and they are free from the guilt.

 2007/7/14 14:13Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
God does what He will and that is keeping man as a free agent. God works with and around this obstacle of man's free will.
Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
because they choose not to see.
and hearing because they choose not to hear.

According to your doctrin verse Mat 13:15 it is God who waxt their heart gross and dulled theire hearing theirfore it is God's falt for the not turning to repent and they are free from the guilt.



But look at a parallel verse of this as well before jumping to conclusions
Joh 12:39 [b]Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.[/b]

Again I will put up these verses-
Joh 6:44 [b]No man can come to me,[/b] except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. [b]Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.[/b]

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
[i]Notice it does not say anything about the flesh doing any good, or being able to produce life, but the Spirit alone.[/i]

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, [b]that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.[/b]

No man will come to God unless God first draws him, it matters not how much of the Bible he reads, how many services he attends, if God does not draw him, and convict him, and regnerate him, he cannot be saved.

Notice in this verse that man's work is not the means of being saved, and who is doing the work.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Consider this verse also
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: [b]whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.[/b]

Man's will is enslaved to sin, i do not know why it is so hard to understand that, man will sin and sin and sin because he loves it, and finds pleasure in it. Until he has a new master, he will always serve, and be enslaved to old.

Man cannot set himself free on his own. this why self help programs so often fail, because self cannot free self as "the flesh profits nothing.'

A man can only be set free by the washing of regeneration when he is given a new heart that believes the Gospel, and has a new master that he used to rebel against and hate, but now strangely desires to serve and obey.

You may do this in your flesh, but it will lead to misery and worse bondage than you have ever known, and the letter will kill you as the Spirit must be made alive in order to truly love and serve God.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/14 14:41Profile









 Re:

Quote:
God loves only a small few while He hates the majority
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This truly is absurd.

I was wondering…what people said this?

Your original post says you have heard people say this.

I have never encountered this extremely warped theology.



There are multitudes in our day, and throughout history, that say God only wants a few people saved (the elect from eternity) while he doesn't want the majority to be saved (the reprobated from eternity).

They say that if God wanted everyone to be saved, they all would be saved, since they don't believe in freewill but believe in total determinism type of Sovereignty on God's part.

They say that God is willing that that majority should perish, that God takes pleasure in the death of the wicked, and that God so loved the few that He gave His Son. "Esau I have hated" is a scripture they use to attempt to justify God's hatred for the majority of the world which He does not unconditionally elect to salvation.

Augustine originated this view, and John Calvin adopted it. It truly is absurd, and is anything but a God of love and a message of grace.

God wants everyone to be saved, not willing that any should perish. And Jesus died for all the world because God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. But the sinner must make a decision to turn and live in order to be saved.


-------------------------

Quote:
But look at a parallel verse of this as well before jumping to conclusions
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.



Jesus was not throwing a pity party, nor condemning the blind for not seeing or the lamb for not walking. Jesus was rebuking the seeing for not seeing, and rebuking the hearing for not hearing.

Notice these verses say that [b]THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR OWN EYES:[/b]

Mt 13:15 - For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes [b]they have closed;[/b] lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Ac 28:27 - For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have [b]they closed;[/b] lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Remember also that the bible says Pharoah hardened his own heart:

Ex 8:15 - But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite,[b] he hardened his heart[/b], and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Ex 8:32 - And [b]Pharaoh hardened his heart[/b] at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Ex 9:34 - And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and [b]hardened his heart[/b], he and his servants.

Just as the [b]doctrine of synergy[/b] is true in respect to conversion, so also is the [b]doctrine of synergy[/b] true of reprobation. Both the agencies of God and man have a role in both.

-------------------------

Quote:
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:



And now compare this to this verse:

Joh 12:32 -And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will [b]draw all men unto me.[/b]

God is influencing the entire world unto Jesus, by sending the Holy Spirit to convict the entire world. (John 16:8)

But the final decision is for the sinner to make, wheather he will yeild to the Spirit, or "resist the Holy Spirit" (Acts 7:51)

In a different thread I just read this, and totally agree with it:


Quote:
Jesus told us to love everyone. So are we to be more loving than God? No, For God so loved the world and He desires all men to come to repentance. Whosoever will let him take the water of life freely. God does not mock us with these words, He loves all men and allows them to choose life or death. God is love!



 2007/7/14 23:54
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Notice these verses say that THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR OWN EYES:



Yes but that does not negate what John says about God blinding their eyes and hardening their hearts. It also does not negate much of how God operates in the OT in hardening hearts of people-
Jos 11:20 For [b]it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly,[/b] and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Quote:
Remember also that the bible says Pharoah hardened his own heart:



Before any mention of Pharaoh hardening his heart, we read
Exo 7:2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.
Exo 7:3 [b]And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.[/b]

Last time I looked 7 comes before 8, thus God determined to harden Pharaoh's heart. The outworking of that is what we see in the rest of the book.

Quote:
Just as the doctrine of synergy is true in respect to conversion, so also is the doctrine of synergy true of reprobation. Both the agencies of God and man have a role in both.



Romans 9 paints a different picture. In regards to Jacob and Esau, they are both twins born in the same lineage, nothing to differentiate them, for we read-
Rom 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;
[i]Notice before any works were done either good, or evil God chose who would be what[/i]

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[i]Here is the only difference in the saved and unsaved, God shows mercy.[/i]

This also shown here-
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to [b]them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[/b]

We see that those who are born of the Spirit have done nothing to earn or merit it, and that it is God's choice based upon His good pleasure.

Now as for your remarks regarding God wanting the majority to perish. If you believe that this is what the doctrines of sovereign grace teach, again you are sadly mistaken. A man would be a fool to say how many will or will not be saved.

The Reformed view is to preach the Gospel to all, since that is the means God uses to bring in the elect, and since God has not marked who is and who isn't, we have no idea just how many will perish.

I tend to trust in the fact that God is full of grace, and mercy, thus He will save alot more than we think, and since the salvation is based upon Christ's merits alone, I see no reason why this wouldn't happen as man cannot interfere or thwart God's plans.

I am always amazed how quickly, name calling gets thrown into the mix when discussing these things, yet I am used to it by now, as I once held the same view of those I now agree with.

Quote:
Whosoever will let him take the water of life freely



Yes, but no man will left to own devices. There are none that seek God, no not one, there is none that doeth good. So again without even getting into the context of this passage it has been discredited as a "free-will" verse.

Your argument is with the Scriptures, for they declare a man to be completely enslaved to sin, and apart from God doing something to change that, he would remain that way. God owes none salvation and the fact that any are saved is unfair, as we all deserve hell.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/15 2:33Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Now as for your remarks regarding God wanting the majority to perish. If you believe that this is what the doctrines of sovereign grace teach, again you are sadly mistaken. A man would be a fool to say how many will or will not be saved.



Well, call me a fool for telling you then:

Matthew 7:13-14: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and [b]many[/b] there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and [b]few[/b] there be that find it.

From this passage, we know that "many" (the majority) will perish, but "few" will be saved.

If all those who are saved, are "irresistably" saved by "irresistable grace" and "unconditional election"; if God's Sovereign Omnipotence is the only condition for man's salvation (monergism) and freewill has not the power to yeild or resist (synergism), then we must conclude that God only wants to save a "few" while He does not want to save the "many".

Either way, if synergism is false, and monergism is true, you cannot truly say that God does not want anyone to perish, you cannot truly say that God wants all to come to repentance.

If freewill was not a factor in being saved, but only God's Sovereign Omnipotence was, all whom He wants to be saved will be saved, and none will be lost that He wants to be saved.

So according to Calvinistic doctrines like "irresistable grace" and "unconditional election", according to monergism, God wants only to save a "few" while the majority - the "many" - He does not want to save.

I don't see how I am "sadly mistaken", this seems to be clearly what the Calvinistic version of "Sovereignty" teaches, which seems to be less of a "doctrine of sovereign [i]grace[/i]" and more of a doctrine of sovereign damnation; less because less are saved and more because more are damned.

Very strange "grace" this is, which does not want the majority to receive grace, which does not provide the "many" with any possibility of grace.

 2007/7/15 2:42
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
From this passage, we know that "many" (the majority) will perish, but "few" will be saved.



Then since Scripture already clarifies that few will be saved, why do you bad mouth those who say few will be saved?

I believe that was part of a previous post of yours where you said something negative about Calvinists who said God wanted the majority of men to perish.

Quote:
So according to Calvinistic doctrines like "irresistable grace" and "unconditional election", according to monergism, God wants only to save a "few" while the majority - the "many" - He does not want to save.



Well I would say more importantly, the Bible shows that God is interested in saving His people. In the OT lots of nations were wiped out while Israel survived, Israel was alone given the revelation of the true God and how to worship and sacrifice to Him. I rarely hear any cry out, "unfair" about that. Yet suddenly when we come to the New Testament, God suddenly does not have a people to save while He passes by others?

Look at the Epistles and verses most people use to back a universal salvation, and you will find they are misapplied. People assume "us", and "we" mean mankind in general while it generally means Christians to whom the author is addressing.

For instance-
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Honest contextual reality shows that the "us" in this passage is not mankind in general, but rather those who had believed, and the same with "we".

Poor hermenutics is no excuse for poor theology, and that is why we must study to show ourselves approved, and rightly divide the word of truth.

And before I go any further, I hope all is well in your marriage, it's been about a year right?


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/15 3:03Profile









 Re:

Quote:
And before I go any further, I hope all is well in your marriage, it's been about a year right?



My marriage has been wonderfully blessed. I appreciate you asking. She has been working at Teen Mania for about four years, for Aquire the Fire, but is finishing up in August and then will travel fulltime with me on the campuses. We are very excited.

Quote:
Then since Scripture already clarifies that few will be saved, why do you bad mouth those who say few will be saved?



The question is not over how many will be saved and how many will not be saved.

(And from your previous posts, you said I was "sadly mistaken" if I thought that "the doctrine of Sovereign Grace" - as you called it -taught that few would be saved.)

If I "bad mouthed" those who merely said that "few will be saved", I would have to bad mouth Christ, since Christ said few find the narrow road.

But I "bad mouth" those who say that the "many" perish [i]in accordance with[/i] the ultimate will of God. Hell was created for the devil and is angels, not for man, therefore any man who goes to hell goes is sent there as a [i]last resort[/i], contrary to the [i]ultimate[/i] will of God, when all persuasive influence is exhausted on the part of God.

I know that God is not willing that any should perish, but all should come to repentance ([b]2Pet 3:9[/b]), and therefore genuinely calls all men everywhere to repentance ([b]Acts 17:31[/b]) seeing that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked ([b]Eze 18:32[/b]), and therefore wants them to turn themselves to live ([b]Eze 33:11[/b]). We know that Christ died for us, but not only us, but also for the sins of the whole world. ([b]1John 2:2[/b]) Thus those who "bring upon themselves...destruction" do so because they "deny the Lord that [u][i]bought[/i][/u] them" with His precious blood. ([b]2Pet 2:1[/b])

So the "many" perish [i]contrary[/i] to the ultimate will of God, [i]contrary[/i] to the earnest pleadings of God, [i]contrary[/i] to the loving plan of God, and [i]contrary[/i] to the purpose of the finished atonement.

Sinners perish, not because Jesus didn't die for them, not because our Sovereign God did not want them to be saved, but because they do not "[i]want[/i] to come unto me, that" they "might have life" ([b]John 5:40[/b])

And so sinners die in sin because they are at war with the Soveriegn will of God:

[b]Lu 13:34[/b] - O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often [b]would I have[/b] gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and [b]ye would not! [/b]

Sinners die in sin in accordance to [i]their own[/i] freewill. They do not die in sin in accordance with God's [b]Holy Will[/b], since a Holy Will cannot will sin at all, let alone will that the majority of the world should living in sin and dying in sin.

And if God does not want the majority to be saved, by necessity He must want them to live and to die in sin, and finally to weep and wail and gnash their teeth for all of eternity in utter darkness. Thus according to the errors of Calvinism, God would have neither a "holy" nor a "benevolent" will for the majority of the world.

 2007/7/15 3:21





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