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nekaras
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Joined: 2004/4/19
Posts: 12


 Should we believe the trinity?

I was studing with a friend of mine who does not believe in the trinity. I want to through some scriptures out there that he used to discredit the trinity. Hopefully this will get us on our toes in answering theological questions.

I'll begin with Ps 110:1. "The LORD says to my Lord." If you look in your bible, you'll see one lord is all caps and the other has just the first letter capitalized. Does anyone know why that is?

 2004/4/19 21:52Profile
jeremyhulsey
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Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re: Should we believe the trinity?

Nekras,

Before I answer your questions I need to know a few things:

1. What position are you taking? Trinitarian, Oneness, Arian? You posted this in the debate section so I need to know which side you are going to defend; or perhaps are you looking for information on what the Bible teaches about the Godhead. If the latter is the case then perhaps we should move this discussion to a different part of the forum. There are many knowledgeable brothers and sisters who are able to work through this topic with you.

2. Your question was rather ambiguous and leading. Being that this is the debate section of the forum, you should properly define your position so that I will know how to respond to your question. If your intentions are not to debate, then you will understand my questions as to your position and purpose for this post.(this has been a much discussed topic in the past) I look forward to your response.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2004/4/19 22:43Profile
5nva
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Joined: 2003/8/15
Posts: 179


 Re: Should we believe the trinity?

Nekaras:

First of all I am not one of those brothers that Hulsey refers to as one who can work through this subject with you. I am not even one to debate very well nor do I want to. I did just want to point out that if you will read Acts 2:30-36 you will clearly see that Psalm 110:1 is a prophecy concerning Jesus Christ. To me this demonstrates the trinity.

Mike


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Mike

 2004/4/20 8:55Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re: Should we believe the trinity?

Quote:
I'll begin with Ps 110:1. "The LORD says to my Lord." If you look in your bible, you'll see one lord is all caps and the other has just the first letter capitalized. Does anyone know why that is?



The word for LORD (all caps) used in scripture is the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) or 'yood-hay-vav-hay.' This was the most sacred name of God used in the Old Testament. To give you an idea how holy that name is the scribes were to ceremonially immurse themselves before and after they penned the name and every time they penned it.

Because there are no vowels between the consonants no one knows how to properly say that name. The Jews believes that when Messiah comes He will teach them how to say it. This is where the whole issue over using the name Jehovah or Yahweh comes from.

Many other names are used in the Old Testament to describe God. This is where you will read in other places "capitol 'L' and small case 'ord' (Lord). The first name used to describe God was Elohyim (yim denotes plural) and then Adonai, etc. Eloyim denotes the plurality of God's greatness and majesty and is used also as an Old Testament word for the GodHead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). Here we read "Let 'us' make God in 'our' image." There is one substance and three persons. These things we cannot fully comprehend, but we can apprehend them.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/4/20 9:34Profile
nekaras
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Joined: 2004/4/19
Posts: 12


 Re:

I am going to take my friends position. I thought my question was pretty straight. You will notice lord is written in all caps in the OT. Why is it written like this sometimes and not others. For example, Ps 110:1 uses lord twice. Are they both the same lord? What makes them different?

 2004/4/20 9:44Profile
Delboy
Member



Joined: 2004/2/8
Posts: 199
Worthing UK

 Re:

Hi nekaras,Both Robert and Jeremy have posted clear responses to your request.Personally I am sorry that you want to take your friend's position without further debate.There ARE plenty of able folk on this site who will help you with your request if genuine.
There is also a site Carm.org which deals very thoroughly with this issue and particular cults who deny the trinity.Also this site has some trustworthy material on it :-)


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derek Eyre

 2004/4/20 11:40Profile
KeithLaMothe
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Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

Quote:
You will notice lord is written in all caps in the OT. Why is it written like this sometimes and not others.

As I understand it (from the prefaces of several Bibles that use this practice), LORD is used where the divine name (yod-he-waw-he, YHWH) is present in the original Hebrew. Personally I'd prefer they put the Tetragrammaton. However, this is at least somewhat consistent with what the Jews started doing (at least since the Masorites), where they would write the consonants YHWH but would put the vowel pointings for Adonai (root: aleph-dalet-nun , Hebrew word meaning 'my lord') so that peoeple would know not to pronounce the divine name.
Quote:
For example, Ps 110:1 uses lord twice. Are they both the same lord? What makes them different?

I wish I could just paste the Hebrew text in here, but I'm not sure how to do that. Nonetheless, the first 'Lord' in Psalm 110:1 is the divine name , and the second is Adonai.

As for choosing between a Trinitarian or Oneness interpretation, I think (and this is just me) the decision can be boiled down to a few simple questions:

1. Is the Father (YHWH) God?

2. Is the Son (Jesus, or Yeshua) God?

3. Is the Holy Spirit God?

4. Is Jesus the Father?

5. Is Jesus the Holy Spirit?

There are others, but I think that's all we need here. The Trinitarian answers, for what they're worth are: yes, yes, yes, no, no.

The big one for Jesus-only "Oneness," at least the Pentacostal one I've discussed the matter with, is #4.

So, according to Scripture, can Jesus be the Father? Can the Son and the Father literally be the same person?

I trust, if your position is 'yes', that you know Scriptures to seem to support that, so I'll focus on Scriptures that seem to say 'no'.

(please note that I'm not trying to be argumentative or mean, just pointing out places where Scripture does not seem to accomodate the idea of Jesus being the Father and the Son)

Let us prayerfully consider these (and all) Scriptures:

Psalm 110:1
The LORD said unto my Lord, "Sit Thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool."

Luke
41 And He said unto them, "How say they that Christ is David's son?
42 For David himself saith in the book of Psalms: `The LORD said unto my Lord, "Sit Thou on My right hand,
43 until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool."'
44 If David therefore calleth Him `Lord,' how is He then his son?"

Jesus, the Son, clearly claims to be the second "Lord" named, and the first one is the divine name, which refers to the Father. If the Father and the Son were the same person, why would He talk to (and even command) Himself?

John 8
16 And yet if I judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent Me.
17 It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am One that bear witness of Myself, and the Father that sent Me beareth witness of Me."

If Jesus literally is the Father, He would have been at least somewhat deceptive here, because the part of the law that He was appealing to required "two," and all He gave was Himself and the Father. If They are one Person, how would They satisfy the "two" witnesses clause?

Luke 22
41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down and prayed,
42 saying, "Father, if Thou be willing, remove this cup from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Thine be done."

To restate a common Jewish objection, why would God pray to Himself? It makes some degree of sense if the Father and Son are seperate Persons, but if They're the same?

Far more importantly, though: "not My will, but Thine be done." Jesus' will was different than the Father's! How can one person have two different wills?

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man -- no, not the angels who are in Heaven, neither the Son, but only the Father.

Only the Father knew, not even the Son. How can the same person both know and not know a particular fact?

I think that's enough, at least until I have a clearer idea of how your position differs from the trinitarian position.

God's grace be with you all,
-Keith

 2004/4/20 14:20Profile
sermonindex
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 Re:

Quote:
Let us prayerfully consider these (and all) Scriptures:


Brother Keith, great list of scriptures showing the trinity. I went through in one of my old bibles in the New Tesament and highlighted EVERY verse that had mention of the Jesus (Son),Spirit (Holy Spirit), and GOD (Father). You will be amazed how many there are when you look for those three-in-one verse. It's too bad I gave that bible away would have come in handy here in this discussion. hehe :-P


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/4/20 14:27Profile
KeithLaMothe
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Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible

The search function will give you all the verses with a certain combination of words. You can restrict the search to certain books, as well.

Wildly useful website.

 2004/4/20 14:36Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Keith
Wildly useful website. :-D

I think it is widely used also. ;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2004/4/20 14:47Profile





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