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hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

ok....this article was a "side-post" to this thread [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17724&forum=36]Kenneth Hagin & Copeland - Holy Laughter[/url]

i just wanted to lift up some "points" as i said in that thread, that not everything that goes by the name "miracle" or all things that happends are from the Holy Spirit from the living eternal God, i myself do not agree on everything MacArthur says, but i think he nails somethings right on....

i watched yesterday a video about this man Marjoe Gortner, and it broke my heart, i spoke with one brother about this and he said something to me, : that at least Marjoe said he was only pretending and lying, how many is there that dont come out and say that?

if anyone want a link to the video i will PM it to you, just tell me.....


Christian


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/7/2 14:46Profile









 Re:

Quote:
"I feel that there is a need to hear that our God is a living God, and some of you young men who are so keen and so interested in being so theologically sound need to understand you can reduce God down to a proposition, and it's intellectual death. And God will raise up a man and use him whose theology and knowledge is not as pristine as yours--if his heart is there and he's believing God."



Quote:
"I'd take a Leonard Ravenhill over 20 dead Calvinists."




And I will take the true, life-giving Gospel from any man, rather than lift up some particular preacher.

I am so weary of these type of emotional comparisons of what type of man God will use. It is not about, nor has it ever been about the man. It has always been about His Word.

In bible school, I constantly heard the same thing the Paul Washer was trying to say. And it gets you excited while you are sitting in your seat there. You know Kneeology, not Theology.
You start to look at yourself and get visions of grandeur, you start looking at men just like the Corinthian church.

And then...

God marries you off and gives you a bunch of kids, and through all of you struggles in learning to love those around you as Christ Loves,
you begin to look away from yourself and back to the Word of God.



As we all know, the Apostle Peter was an unlearned man, and look at the message he preached on the day of Pentecost. He preached Christ. He went through the scriptures, historically, and preached Christ. His message was rich with doctrine and Theology...

 2007/7/2 15:18
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
God marries you off and gives you a bunch of kids, and through all of you struggles in learning to love those around you as Christ Loves, you begin to look away from yourself and back to the Word of God.



And then you can preach the dread of sin WITH the promise of salvation in such a way that is completely Christ centered in which He becomes all we could never have- peace with God, holiness, wisdom, sanctification, and then the Gospel really becomes good news to the ones God gives ears to hear it!!!



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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/2 16:34Profile
narrowpath
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Joined: 2005/1/9
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 Charismatic Chaos "Does God do miracles today?" - MacArthur

I bought McArthurs book "Charismatic Chaos" for the very reason of this topic and tried to read it through. I do agree with him that there is much chaos and pretense in some of the Charismatic churches and have posted comments about some of their excesses, too.
However, I was quite appalled by his cynical and judgemental tone against those who believe in the gifts and signs and wonders to a point where I had to put the book down.

There is Chaos in great parts of the charismatic churches but he has missed a great opportunity to reach out to them and enrich them with his wealth of understanding of other parts of the scriptures.
Paul encountered the same chaos in Corinth, but his handling of the situation stands in stark contrast to John McArthurs spirit. Does John McArthur actually LOVE his fellow brothers, the charismatics?


When you read Mark 16:17 in its plainest and unbiased way how can you still come to the conclusion that wonders are not for now if you are not biased?

Mark 16:17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

You cannot treat scripture this way and not find yourself in conflict with the Lord of the Word. If I weren't sure in my faith about these things, his book would greatly disturb me.

When the Lord is able to miraculously turn a sinner into a saint, is he not able to do far lesser miracles such as healing diseases and temporarily overule the laws of physics for His glory?

I think the reason for this attitude is that we do not lives radical enough. We are not dependent enough on His power. Our walk with the Lord has not yet let us into situations that we would feel prompted to pray this prayer in Acts 4.

29Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus."



narrowpath

 2007/7/2 16:47Profile
Jeppe
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Joined: 2007/5/14
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 Re: Charismatic Chaos "Does God do miracles today?" - MacArthur

Quote:
Paul encountered the same chaos in Corinth, but his handling of the situation stands in stark contrast to John McArthurs spirit. Does John McArthur actually LOVE his fellow brothers, the charismatics?



I came across the journals of wesley where he mentioned this:

(April 1786)
Monday , 3. About eleven I preached to a crowded congregation in the new House near Chapel-en-le-Frith. Many of these lively people came from among the mountains, (...)

It is chiefly among these enormous mountains that so many have been awakened, justified, and soon after perfected in love; but even while they are full of love, [b]Satan strives to push many of them to extravagance.[/b] This appears in several instances: — 1. Frequently three or four, yea, ten or twelve, pray aloud all together. 2. Some of them, perhaps many, [b]scream all together as loud as they possibly can.[/b] 3. Some of them use improper, yea, indecent, expressions in prayer. 4. [b]Several drop down as dead;[/b] and are as stiff as a corpse; but in a while they start up, and cry, “Glory! glory!” perhaps twenty times together. Just so do the French Prophets, and very lately the Jumpers in Wales, [b]bring the real work into contempt.[/b]

[b]Yet whenever we reprove them, it should be in the most mild and gentle manner possible.[/b]


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Jeppe

 2007/7/2 17:19Profile
seanjol
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Joined: 2004/11/12
Posts: 55
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 Re:

Hey Mike,

You are right on about the word. I think the frustration that many face is that as Poonen says there is all word with no Spirit. It's as if the letter kills because the Spirit of God is not allowed to work in that Word. Then on the other side, there is such a desire for "signs and wonders" that as Poonen says, they're like a train puffing and puffing but they're off of the tracks because there is no word. I pray for a balance in our walk. Paul said "be ye followers of me as I imitate Christ." Unfortunately, many people are imitating many who just go after signs and wonders. We do need men of God who will preach the Word of God and if God chooses to move by His Spirit, Praise God, but we both know that His movement will not be contrary to His word. A message that many people in these movements forget. Lord bless you brother and your rapidly growing family :).

Sean


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Sean

 2007/7/2 17:32Profile
Isaiah64
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Posts: 85


 Re:

Quote:
And I will take the true, life-giving Gospel from any man, rather than lift up some particular preacher.

I am so weary of these type of emotional comparisons of what type of man God will use. It is not about, nor has it ever been about the man. It has always been about His Word.




I think you're missing the point of what was said. Of course we need to be concerned about being doctrinally sound (2 Tim. 2:15). But pure theology without the presence or power of God brings about death. Just ask the pharisees, who made their converts twofold children of hell.

The Bible tells us about what kind of man God will use--one with a broken, humble heart and faith in Him.
God can and does use men whose doctrinal knowledge might not be as great as your own, and in so doing he puts to shame those who pridefully believe they're more worthy to be blessed because they've acquired more head-knowledge of the Bible.

Quote:
You know Kneeology, not Theology.You start to look at yourself and get visions of grandeur, you start looking at men just like the Corinthian church.



So what you're saying is that seeking the Lord will make you prideful?
A real student of "kneeology" looks at Christ, not at himself. You can't be on your knees and look to yourself--that's a contradiction. The very fact that you desire to seek Him in prayer demonstrates a dependence on Him, humbleness, and a desire to obey and please Him only.

 2007/7/2 17:54Profile









 Re: Charismatic Chaos "Does God do miracles today?" - MacArthur


At the top of p2 Mahoney asked

Quote:
why should there be such a necessity for miracles?

Why would I want to seek God for miracles?

Brother, please read very carefully and consider the order in which things in this verse happened, and why? (I think these may be your answer.)

Matthew 11:21 NKJV
Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For [u]if[/u] the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

(Also reported in Luke 10:13)


Also, I noticed something recently, in Hebrews 2.

2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward,
3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard [Him,]
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?


Tyndale chooses to put 'it' instead of 'Him' at the end of verse 3.

If you read it through with 'it', then the signs following mean that the correct preaching of the word is [i][b]confirmed[/i][/b] by God's bearing witness with signs, wonders, miracles and the gifts of the Spirit.

This has a slightly different feel, to putting in 'Him', which makes the verses seem to say that the people confirming the word preached, could do so because they had first heard CHRIST preach that word.

First question this raises is why would they be preaching to the converted?

Second is, how many years before there is no-one alive who can 'confirm' the word because they personally had heard Christ?


When I first noticed this, I thought it was an attempt to embed the doctrine of apostolic succession (so important to both Catholics and Anglicans) in (KJV) scripture, but I do believe from the tiny bit I've gleaned of Greek, that maybe both options are technically correct. (Anyone who can confirm this, please do.)

Either way, what a wonderful confirmation of one's authentic calling, to find God Himself pouring out on those who respond to the word He gives, which has been preached (by you) in faith!

 2007/7/2 20:35









 Re:

Quote:
I think you're missing the point of what was said. Of course we need to be concerned about being doctrinally sound (2 Tim. 2:15). But pure theology without the presence or power of God brings about death. Just ask the Pharisees, who made their converts twofold children of hell.



And I think you would agree that the Pharisees doctrine, their teaching, was not sound. None of it pointed to Christ. They were ignorant of God's righteousness and, therefore, they went about to establish their own righteousness. Their converts were 2-fold children of hell because they were laden with burdens that not even the Pharisees could bear.

Christ's burden is light.

Quote:
The Bible tells us about what kind of man God will use--one with a broken, humble heart and faith in Him.



Actually, the bible tells us what GOD DOES to a man that He will use. He will take an ambitious Moses and put him in a desert for 40 years until he has no other agenda then to keep the sheep. God chose Moses, not when he was broken...He chose Moses and then broke him.

This why I said I am weary with preachers who compare what type of man God will use (intellectual, unlearned, strong, weak, smart, dumb, proud, humble, etc.) God chooses the man, or woman, and then He makes the man or woman.
God will even use a man or woman in spite of themselves because it is not about the person, it is about His Word. The true life-giving Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Quote:
God can and does use men whose doctrinal knowledge might not be as great as your own, and in so doing he puts to shame those who pridefully believe they're more worthy to be blessed because they've acquired more head-knowledge of the Bible.



First of all I don't think I talked about how much doctrinal knowledge that "I have" (which is very limited) and if I came across like that, I do apologize.

I firmly believe that God uses whom He chooses. But let's say someone does have a real honest zeal for the work of God, and they are sincere, and pure in heart. What would be so wrong in telling that individual to wait and make sure that they have studied to show themselves approved unto God, and to make sure that they actually know what they are talking about.

I don't know about you, but I sure do blush looking back at the times (whether in the street, or in a pulpit, or one on one with someone) when I taught, preached, or discussed something that was just...off! I honestly did not know what I was talking about. I had a lot of zeal. My heart was pure (motives) I prayed for very long time, but I my doctrine was just off...

Quote:
So what you're saying is that seeking the Lord will make you prideful?

Quote:
A real student of "kneeology" looks at Christ, not at himself. You can't be on your knees and look to yourself--that's a contradiction. The very fact that you desire to seek Him in prayer demonstrates a dependence on Him, humbleness, and a desire to obey and please Him only.



I do not want to pit prayer against doctrine, that was not my point, but I will tell you that I have known several people who prayed a lot, and yes, they were very prideful. I'm talking about sincere, real-honest believers who actually prayed...with tears, and earnestness. I was one of them!

I would pray for hours and then come out of my prayer closet and look down on my wife because she was not as surrendered to God as I was.

I went to school with a brother that would literally pray all day in one of the bathrooms in our dormitory, and a lot of the time he was a nightmare to be around because you always felt like you didn't measure up. To him, if you did not pray for an extended period of time, you did not really love Jesus.

Sound doctrine is very important, and prayer to the One True and Living God, which is revealed in Christ, in the scriptures...is very important.

You really cannot have one without the other.

God chooses the man, and God chooses the woman. God chose Joseph, Jacob, Abraham, Peter, Deborah, Mary, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Paul, etc.

Some were prideful, some were humble, some were ambitious, some were sloths, some were self-reliant, some were fearful, some were liars, some were honest, some were rich, some were poor, some were male, and some were female.

There is only one steadfast, unchanging, eternal factor included in the lives of all the people God chooses.

His Word.

 2007/7/2 20:42
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
As we all know, the Apostle Peter was an unlearned man, and look at the message he preached on the day of Pentecost. He preached Christ. He went through the scriptures, historically, and preached Christ. His message was rich with doctrine and Theology...



And then there was Paul ...

There seems to be some unecessary dividing here. It appears the Lord chooses who He uses and uses whosoever will.


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Mike Balog

 2007/7/3 0:02Profile





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