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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : FOLLOW-UP TO: "The Fatal Trap of Holiness Preaching"

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TheophilusMD
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Joined: 2003/12/1
Posts: 124
New Jersey

 Re:

Philologos has indeed written, albeit unfinished, on christian perfection here.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1664&forum=40&42][b]Christian Perfection[/b][/url]


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Rey O.

 2007/6/30 12:26Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:

Do you know actually anyone who believes in 'sinless perfection'?



i just listend to a clip by Joyce Meyer, she claims to come to this sinless perfection state. She claimed that when she relized she wasent a sinner any longer she stoped sinning.

[url=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=260772221]Joce Meyor doctrines[/url]


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/7/1 9:44Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Jesse's: I think that most of our disagreements arise, because of the backround you have. There are some "extreme holiness" preachers, who seem to make everything into a sin. They exalt the law so highly, that nobody is able to keep it!!



Yes there were clearly some extremes. The concern I have is that folk begin to express their relationship with Christ in terms of 'do's' and 'don't's' as opposed to walking in the Spirit. A person can keep rules and be as mean as the Devil. I have known this to happen. Folk have to understand that holiness is the person of Jesus Christ living in and through us. We can no more be holy by taking up fleshly means as we can walk on water in our own strength.

The trouble is that folk drift into a whole system of religion that has tons of rules but no [i]life[/i]. They believe they are 'spiritual' because they keep these rules. They even believe they are the more spiritual because their life is more 'strict'. This is not spirituality.

Everything has to flow from our relationship with God. What troubles me about repentance preaching is that folk are often being told to 'stop this' and 'stop that' when in reality they need to return to Christ. Telling folk to 'stop' is really just [i]rebuking[/i] them. The message of the Gospel is that we have been reconciled to God through Jesus Christ. The relationship has been restored that Adam enjoyed in the Garden. That vital union from which the life of God flows in and through man making him an expression of God in the earth. Rules cannot take a person where I am talking about. Law cannot do it. It has to flow from the very life of God.

This is why Paul asked the Galatians- "Having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh?" It is that connection to the vine- where the Holy Spirit is flowing through us (as it were) producing the very fruit of the Spirit that makes us lights in the world. We have no light of our own. Even if we keep all the commandments. We can still be alienated from the life of God.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/7/2 9:07Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: He that has the sharp two-edged sword, Whose eyes are like flames of fire.

[i]In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.[/i]


[i]For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.[/i]




[b][color=660033]I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.[/color][/b]



[b][color=660033]For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.[/color][/b]



Our opinions, are they holy?



...[b][color=660033]with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again[/color][/b]


Edit: Want to add here that I'm [b]not[/b] directing this at Josef in particular.


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/7/3 16:02Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Our relationship with God is far greater than Adam's was. Adam was a created creature, the Christian is a birthed creature. That is Christ born again in the created creature and a new creature is born. That is the Christ in you portion of our salvation, making us wise, righteous, sanctified and redeemed. Our new life in Christ Jesus is now capable of the same life that was in Christ.

Galatians 2:19-20 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Christ is our holiness and that is our only sinless perfection. The flesh must ask for forgiveness and the Advocate by His sacrifice and cleansing by the Father through Him will cleanse us from al unrighteousness.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/7/4 14:01Profile
Koheleth
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Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re: Sinless Perfection

Quote:
but the sinless perfection that some preach says that original sin can be completely eradicated and one can walk on the same level of God - not falling short of the Glory of God in any way shape or form both willful or unwillful. That not only all willful sin is eradicated (which is what I believe and preach) but also all unwillful sin is completely eradicated and that anyone who has not achieved COMPLETE ENTIRE SANCTIFICATION is an apostate and enemy of God. This hyper insane type of sinless perfection goes miles beyond what Fox or any of the others mentioned below preached.



This is a straw man that I hear all of the time. On the other hand, I have never met or heard of any individual who teaches otherwise, except for some of the cults (that 99% of us would agree are cults because they are so far out). Can you name any respected individual or ministry that teaches this? I believe this type of description of a "sinless perfection" is a war waged against no one.

 2007/7/25 20:15Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Is Christ still sinless?

Jhn 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The answer is Yes Jesus Christ is still sinless and always will be, and always was.

Now the big questions. Is Christ in the believer? Is a believer born from above? Is the believer Born Again? Is Christ now our life?
Is He come in the flesh of men? Did He send the Comforter? Is this Christ God?

If you cannot answer yes to all these questions, salvation is still fleeting. If the answers are yes, then salvation is secure and the perfection of Christ is in you. Our Spirit is Christ! Is He Come?
1Cr 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

If Christ is come and is in you then that which was in part is no longer that which separates us form God. If Christ is in you it is no longer us who live but Christ who lives in us.
Is Christ still perfect? Then if He is, that which is His, that is those that the Father has given Him are perfect. They are perfect in Spirit, They are being made perfect in Soul, by the Holy Spirit only teaching that which Christ gives us. We have the Mind of Christ and we are renewing our minds to the Mind of Christ. Is the Mind of Christ still perfect? So be it. We will be made perfect, that is sinless perfection when He comes for His own. We will have a sinless perfect body just like His. Where is our sinless perfection? It is not ourselves, but it is the Christ, the Person of Christ Himself that is birthed in us that is our sinless perfect, that is if Christ is still Perfect and without sin.

1Cr 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

He is come, perfect spirit, He is coming, soul being made perfect, He will come, body will be made perfect.

2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us

Are we delivered in spirit? Is doth deliver being accomplished in our soul/mind being renewed by the Holy Spirit. Will we be delivered in body on resurrection day?

Are we perfect in spirit: Are we being made perfect in soul? Will we be made perfect in body?

This is not Calvin, this is scripture.

In Christ perfect, being made perfect, and will be made perfect: Phillip

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Colossians 3:1-11 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Is this true scripture?




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Phillip

 2007/7/26 0:23Profile









 Re:

Quote:
This is a straw man that I hear all of the time....I believe this type of description of a "sinless perfection" is a war waged against no one.



While not questioning Josefs intention, I felt the majority of the article was a total misundertanding of scripture and a complete misunderstanding of the doctrine of perfection (which is completely scriptural).

For example, the definition that sinless perfection means it's IMPOSSIBlE for you to sin anymore. That's totally a straw-man arguement, or as you said, "fighting a war against nobody" because nobody, that I know of, teaches that!

As Duncan Campbell and Leonard Ravenhill used to say:

"You will never get to the place where it is impossible for you to sin. But praise be unto God that you are in the place where it is possible for you not to sin."

The bible says that we do not need to allow INWARD or INDWELLING sin to remain inside of us:

"[b]LET[/b] not wickedness dwell [b]IN[/b] they tabernackles." Job 11:14

"thou blind Pharisees, cleanse first that whic his [b]WITHIN[/b] the cup and that outside of them may be clean also." Matthew 23:26

"[b]LET[/b] not sin therefore reign [b]IN[/b] your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof." Rom 6:12

I don't believe sin could be vice or have any guilt involved in it if it were not [i][b][u]voluntary[/u], [u]willfull[/u], [u]avoidable[/u] and [u]optional[/u].[/b][/i]

Anyways, there were many faults and problems with these articles. If someone wants to read some very good writings on holiness and Christian perfection, I recommend Charles G. Finneys lectures on Sanctification. He brilliantly contends for true entire sanctification, how the scriptures promise it, and how it is attainable in this life.

Finney's are the best writings I have read, and I've read a lot on perfection, which I have found. He shatters all the arguements against perfection, and lays out beautifully what true perfection is - a new heart of love and sincerity.

 2007/7/26 0:40









 Re:

Quote:
This is a straw man that I hear all of the time. On the other hand, I have never met or heard of any individual who teaches otherwise, except for some of the cults (that 99% of us would agree are cults because they are so far out). Can you name any respected individual or ministry that teaches this? I believe this type of description of a "sinless perfection" is a war waged against no one.



Check out all 3 threads related to this article and you will see that there are some who have represented this way.

 2007/7/26 8:38









 Re:

From a previous post

Quote:

Philogos, It appears that our doctrine is very similar. Knowing Patrick, I can say that the both of us believe pretty much the same thing you do. I may differ slightly in my view of original sin and total depravity, but it appears that practically, the same thing is the result from both of our doctrines: walking in no known sin (conscious sin, as you said) and with a pure conscience by the grace of God as essential to true salvation.

I am not combatting men that neccesarily say it is impossible to sin, but ones that say that ultimate justification is dependant on "complete sanctification", in other words, people who are saying that unless you are absolutely sinlessly perfect in thought, word, deed, motive, desire, etc. with not even any unconcious or unknown or ignorant sin, then you are not holy, and if you are not holy, you're not saved. I call this type of psuedo-"perfection" heresy, and this is what I have in my cross-hairs.

It looks like we're in agreement.

 2007/7/26 9:03





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