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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Sinners must DO something TO BE SAVED!

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roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
There is no forgiveness for present willfull sins. But only for past, repented sins.



This is a lie!! I do not know what Gospel you have heard, but if we are only forgiven for past sins then who fulfills the requirements to enter Heaven?

Whose perfect life, and obedience to the Law allows complete and utter forgiveness of ALL sin past, present, and future? I certainly hope you do not preach that one's past sins are forgiven, but then man must live faultlessly until his death for entrance into Heaven. If you do, you are no different than the Roman Catholic men who say that we are only justified if we are sanctified, and while you're at it, you better invent your own type of purgatory to do away with the sin in man so he can get into Heaven once he reaches "perfection".

By saying this Jesse you have rendered the Cross pointless, and have made man the one who deserves Heaven because of his obedience. Everything revolves around man and his supposed greatness, his ability to do good. Jesus is just a helper to wipe out the mistakes from before, but now we can do it on our own.

The point of Christ's obedience to all commands of the Law(moral, and ceremonial) was so that obedience would be imputed, or reckoned to the accounts of the people He died for by faith. Of course the faith is from the regenerated heart which God sovereignly works as He wills by His Spirit. But you trample all this under foot and say that a man can start with a clean slate, but then through his own efforts must keep it clean, and thereby earn or merit Heaven? This is repulsive, and again counts Christ's sacrifice as nothing. His merit, and His merit alone is the means and end of our salvation!!!

Man is spiritually dead, and would remain that way unless God intervened. Thus those whom he gives life to, He will not snuff out. He will forgive them of all sin, so that there is no condemnation, so that those He calls are justified, and those that are justified, will be glorified. Those who were warned about drawing back, and falling from grace were creating their own means of righteousness, and some type of work they could hold up before God as a means of acceptance with Him, while meanwhile shunning the Cross, and grace. Hmmm, sounds a bit like what you're teaching Jesse. So as a brother and someone who is concerned for you and your hearers, please accept the work Christ has done for you, and cease from your labour. God will only accept you in Christ, through His work upon the Cross, and in spite of your weaknesses and failures, that is why we are under grace, and not law.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/1 12:26Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Wasn't the rich young ruler inquiring how to obtain eternal life?



Yes, he was. You are right in saying Jesus gave him the law as an answer. Remember, the rich young ruler asked Jesus in all three gospel accounts, "What must I [i]do[/i] to inherit eternal life?" And Jesus told him how to [i]do[/i] it:

"Keep the commandments and you will have eternal life."

The man asserted he had kept all the commandments from his youth up. "What still do I lack?" he asked.

Then, Jesus used [i]grace[/i] to expose his hidden lust, the lust that the Law could never finger. See, his outward deeds according to the law of Moses may have been blameless, but the law of the Spirit revealed the inside of the cup, and it was full of the love of mammon. The lack was not found in a comprehension of Christ's righteousness; it was rather the love of money and possessions in his heart that kept him from following Christ and becoming a disciple.

Because no man can serve two masters.

You don't believe me? Why, then, did Jesus in Mark 10 tell the man that [i]after[/i] he gave up his possessions to the poor, to [b]take up his cross and follow Him?[/b] How do you reconcile this to your theory that the one thing he lacked was an identity of Christ's righteousness? Also, in Luke 18:22 in the KJV we find a colon (:) after "Yet lackest thou one thing:" The statement which proceeds the colon tells us [i]what[/i] this lack is. I believe God included this important story (in all three synoptic gospels, btw) to show that certainly our righteousness from the law is as filthy rags, and that man cannot serve both God and mammon, and also to emphasize how great a snare riches will be and how they would prevent so many -- who would otherwise [i]gladly[/i] follow Jesus -- from entering into the Kingdom of heaven.

Incidentally, you still haven't answered my question: Why didn't Levi react the same, when Jesus told him to leave his tax booth and [b]follow him[/b]; how do you differentiate between the the ruler and Levi...and Zaccheus for that matter? And please try not to say the rich young ruler was simply "not ready" - you have no scriptural basis for that. Also, in the same verse in Mark 10, Jesus said to "go sell all and give to poor" and he concluded, "and you'll have treasure in heaven." Is it absolutely contingent on God (on the matter of comprehending and trusting in the righteusness of Christ) in order for us to exchange worldly riches for heavenly riches? Why then would Jesus put the ball in the rich ruler's court...and then allow him to walk away sorrowfully?

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/7/1 16:24Profile









 Re:

Quote:
How do you reconcile this to your theory that the one thing he lacked was an identity of Christ's righteousness?



As you said earlier, there must be a disconnect in what we are trying to explain. (pretty common on this forum)

I never said the one thing he lacked was an "identity of Christ's righteousness?". What he lacked was "perfect righteousness"...just like all men. I think you would agree. (Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one)

Yes, he knew he lacked something, and that reality of "lack" is present with any man or woman who tries to be justified by the law.

Quote:
10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them



He came to Jesus with the intention of trying to find out how he could be justified (obtain eternal life) by the works of the law. (What must I do...?)

I know you would agree that we are justified by faith. Now (after the Cross), we know, that we obtain eternal life by Grace, through Faith...it is a gift from God. We know do not earn salvation through any works of our own, call it surrender, forsaking all, selling all that we have, whatever.

Jesus on the other hand, being the Word, knew this well before we did (I am being factious) He knew His purpose was to give His life a ransom for many.

So, if Jesus thought that man was ready to believe the Gospel at that moment. Why did He not tell the man to believe on Him?
Why did He not give that man Good News?



My main contention with these "One Thing You Lack" messages, is they talk about surrendering that one last final issue in your life......and then, yes then... you will enter into life. When you have surrendered all!!

For the Christian, there will always be something else to surrender to God. Our hearts are wicked and deceitful, and God will be continually exposing our heart in light of His Son. This is part of what it means to be conformed into His image.



 2007/7/1 18:02
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

I think we're speaking the same thing, brother. Thanks for hatching this out with me. Unity is an exquisite thing.

Brother Paul :-)


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/7/1 18:11Profile
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: God Does Not Accept Sinners As They Are!

God does if they are confessed,ashamed and except death.

Eddie


_________________
Eddie

 2007/7/4 7:40Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Whose perfect life, and obedience to the Law allows complete and utter forgiveness of ALL sin past, present, and future? I certainly hope you do not preach that one's past sins are forgiven, but then man must live faultlessly until his death for entrance into Heaven.



Generally this soteriological view requires a person to stay in a continual state of repentance, confession, and asking for forgiveness. In this view grace cannot deal with any sin that has not yet been committed. Nothing is forgiven until it is confessed and forsaken. A saint is on the same ground as a sinner if they have committed a sin. There is no difference unless the person remains in perfection. If you die and your last act is a sin- you are damned to everlasting hell. This creates a sort of 'preoccupation' with sin as the focus of the person's Christian experience is no longer a loving [i]relationship[/i] but one of performance (i.e. slave and slave master).

Yet a slave never called his owner 'ABBA' that I'm aware of? Nor did they call them [i]friend[/i]. Error begets error. A wrong view of the atonement makes the purpose of the cross one in which God demonstrates His [i]hatred[/i] of sin by making an public example out of Jesus. That is all. In this view the cross means nothing more. However, it is a half true. It is true that we get a glimpse of God's hatred of sin and what we deserve as sinners; but what we see most, and it is the message often mysteriously missing from most repentance based messages, is [i]the revelation of God's love in the offering of His Son in our place.[/i]

Repentance preachers like to demonstrate how angry God is and how much wrath a sinner deserves. Everything seems bent to this end. What we end up with is an angry God and unworthy subjects. To facilitate this kind of 'relationship' (between God and man) the atonement cannot have truly paid the penalty for [i]my[/i] or anyone else's sins. I am forgiven, in this view, because God shows mercy and not because God paid the penalty on the cross. Why? Because in government theology no one can suffer for someone else.

Now we have a very serious problem. Sinners come to God in fear and trepidation often disguised as 'Holy Ghost Conviction'. Sort of like the feeling a child gets in the dark when his parents sent him to do an errand in the basement at night. If there is not a sense of love interwoven into the compulsion then it is [u]not[/u] Holy Ghost conviction. It is full on fear alone.

Now the real problem arises. People come to God and are uncertain whether He is an angry God to keep appeased or a loving God to call ABBA? [i]Trust is the fruit of knowing you are loved[/i]. Folk don't know God loves them- but, how could He? He's looking to damn me to hell at any moment if I sin. He places me on the same ground as a sinner after each transgression. As a father I have sense enough to know that I love my own children more than that. So then I have to ask, am I a better father than ABBA? I trow not.

But, but, but, but, Robert- if we don't scare people with hellfire all the time they will never love God! So we are manipulation folk with hell to get them to love God? We are using the whip of God's wrath to get them to serve Him and walk in the Spirit? That is like a golfer pulling out a driver to putt a 6 inch shot on the green and swinging with all his might. Is this the kind of ABBA relationship we have with God? [i]Trust is the fruit of knowing you are loved[/i]. Why are we so afraid to allow people to believe that God truly loves them and desires what is best for them. That He desires to have a loving relationship that is not based on fear - but on love?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/7/4 8:45Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
So we are manipulation folk with hell to get them to love God?



Brother Robert, there was so many good points in your post, thank you.

I wanted to focus upon the point above.

To me this is the tragedy of the modern day. People try to manipulate folks into a "decision", and then when they do, they are told they are Christians.

All of this is meaningless without the work of the Holy Spirit for the natural man cannot understand spiritual things, and the preaching of the cross is foolishness to them that are perishing. So unless God the Holy Spirit gives spiritual life to a person, they cannot beleive the good news, nor will they want to.

This has been the greatest challenge to my own personal view of the order of salvation, for until recently, I had always held to the belief that when a man believed, he was given life. But I find that that view puts the cart before the horse. Man cannot come to Christ unless the Father draws him, man cannot hear the good news unless the Spirit gives him ears to hear. Thus a man believes because he has been given life, or a new heart.

So it has nothing to do with us manipulating, or scaring people into a decision at all. For unless God gives them life to believe, they will not, even with the threats of hell being presented to them.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/4 12:39Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
So it has nothing to do with us manipulating, or scaring people into a decision at all. For unless God gives them life to believe, they will not, even with the threats of hell being presented to them.



I am thinking about the various ways that the scripture describes God's visitation of sinners. I Peter 2:12 speaks of a 'day of visitation'. The idea being, the time when God comes to bring them under His care. I think of the responsibility placed upon the person, that is, the 'hearer of God's voice'. Hebrews warns in a couple places, "Today if you will hear His voice harden not your heart." So there are certainly times when God comes to make Himself known. Maybe Wesley would call this 'prevenient grace'. The eyes of the understanding are enlightened to know the hope of His calling. For a moment in time it all makes sense. The 'lightbulb' comes on; at least long enough for the person to make a decision.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.(John 3)

Light is the evidence that God is near (if you won't mind me just saying that). The presence of God in the Old Testament comes from a concept that means to look [i]face to face[/i]. With "open face as in a glass..." makes me think of the presence of God. When Moses came down from the mountain the people covered His face with a vail. They could not bare to look upon God- even the residual evidence that God had been near. None gathered around to say, "Moses let me look on your face! Let me somehow share in the radiance of your experience with God on the mountain." When they saw God- or more excellently the evidence that God had 'been there'; the [i]vapor trail[/i] (as it were), they wanted no part of it.

This is the perspective from which the unbelieving Jews read the Bible. They read with the vail over God's presence. You see, it was not Moses' face that the people could not bare to see- it was God's face they would not look upon. They could not endure a 'face to face' with God- the presence of God. And this is the true definition of religion; [i]worship in the absence of God.[/i] Reading the bible in the absence of God. Going to church in the absence of God. Singing in the absence of God. Some folk are content to have all the expression of religion (because we were created for relationship with God) and yet God remain absent; less than a loving Father, less than a close friend and less than a 'pen-pal'. Certainly less than [i]Emmanuel[/i].

So what do we do when God visits and folk are content to just resist Him or ignore Him? When they reject His love? I think the first question we have to ask ourselves is; did they get a real opportunity to hear the Gospel as it is revealed in scripture? Not a message crafted by a wounded messenger; forged in the fires and smoke of years of hardened warfare in the trenches of this world. But a fresh revelation of the Gospel of Christ- as vibrant and real as the fresh fruit of summer or the purity of a breath of air after a sweet summer rain?











_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/7/4 13:43Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Now we have a very serious problem. Sinners come to God in fear and trepidation often disguised as 'Holy Ghost Conviction'. Sort of like the feeling a child gets in the dark when his parents sent him to do an errand in the basement at night. If there is not a sense of love interwoven into the compulsion then it is not Holy Ghost conviction. It is full on fear alone.

Now the real problem arises. People come to God and are uncertain whether He is an angry God to keep appeased or a loving God to call ABBA? Trust is the fruit of knowing you are loved. Folk don't know God loves them- but, how could He? He's looking to damn me to hell at any moment if I sin. He places me on the same ground as a sinner after each transgression. As a father I have sense enough to know that I love my own children more than that. So then I have to ask, am I a better father than ABBA? I trow not.



Yes, I've seen what you are talking about. It rarely ever lasts. Of course if you flip it around and go to the other extreme you will also cause a bad impression. The verse below has stuck with me for years.

Pro 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/7/4 16:50Profile









 Re:

Quote:
There is no forgiveness for present willfull sins. But only for past, repented sins.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is a lie!!



Forgiveness, upon the condition of repentance, is what my entire bible tells me from Genesis to Revelation.

What else does Luke 13:3 mean, but that unless you repent you will perish. But that if you repent, you will not perish. Because God will forgive you because of the atonement.

When does God forgive sinners? When they repent.

When did God destroy cities full of sinners? When they didn't repent.

When did Christ upbraid the cities? When they repented not.

Christ has already died for all. And God already wants everyone saved. The only thing that is lacking is their own personal repentance, to actually turn to God so that they can be forgiven.

All of the elements for forgiveness are there. The willingness of God to forgive is there. The atonement for the sins of all is there. The only thing lacking is their own repentance and faith.

1. Can you show me just a single scripture where God ever forgive an impenitent man?

2. Where does God ever pardon a sinner, except when the sinner repented?

In all of scripture, there is not a single incident of God justifying the impenitent. Rather, all those who refuse to repent are condemned to hell.

------------------------------------

1. God wants everyone to be saved. (Eze 33:11, 2Pet 3:9)

2. Christ has died for all. (John 1:29, John 3:16, Rom 5:18, 2Cor 5:19, Heb 2:9, Col 1:20, 2Tim 2:4-6, 1John 2:22, 1John 4:15, 1Tim 4:10)

3. The only thing needed now for actual salvation to take place is for a sinner to actually repent and believe. (Luke 13:3)

His own impenitence and unbelief is the only thing that keeps back the grace of God. (Matt 23:37, Luke 13:34, John 5:40, Rev 22:17)

That is why the Holy Spirit is convicting all men of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come (John 16:8) striving with man to bring about repentance and faith.

Some sinners resist the grace of God (Acts 7:51), rejecting the counsel of God for their own salvation (Luke 7:30) while others do not resist the grace of God. (Acts 26:19)

 2007/7/5 0:59





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