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hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re:

1 Timothy 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, [b]which drown men in destruction and perdition.[/b]

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

1 Timothy 6:11 ¶ But [b]thou[/b], O man of God, [b]flee these things[/b]; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.



as Pastor Conlon puts it...RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!....



_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/6/25 16:27Profile
lovegrace
Member



Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re:

Quote:

Katy-did wrote:
You see, we don't overcome our old sin nature.



Hmm, how do you register "I die daily" or the doctrine of santification?


Also, I never denied her and other's lavish lifestyle. But to say they don't believe in the Trinueness of God is to completly be ignorant of those links I gave you. BLUNTLY stating they DO believe it in.

You opinion of things don't line up with anything. So, that's why I 'rebuked' or 'called you out' on this was because I believe your judgement is INCONSISTANT.

If you want to argue against prosperity preachers. Just condemn their lifestyle. That's strong enough. (You can't serve God and mammon, is a good scripture)

Anywho. Katy. Your 'judgements', I think, are unbiblical and absolutly prejudice because of your lack of sources on your 'denies list' and over condemning them.

Prosperity preachers are wrong. But let's not lie or 'over exhaugerate' any claims against them. (Such as 'denying the trinity' 'different gospel' etc)

 2007/6/25 16:43Profile
lovegrace
Member



Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re:

Hmm,

Thank you 'LoveHim' for your post.

I've listened to Copeland. He doesn't sound like he denies the trinity but what you quoted is messed up.

I'd like to shout props to Krispy for his post.


'We need to mark these people and stay away'

Krispy, nor I, would condemn them. Nor would we enjoy listening to their messages because of all the filth they preach. (I think he'd agree with me on this point, I've read enough of his posts against WOF movement)

My message to Katy was 'chill with the absolute condemnation' of these people. She is sounding like she is the Lord Almighty casting down judgement on [b]every[/b] fault. I don't think any of us would want that on us, even if we are striving to be people of the Kingdom instead of this fading world.

There is no grace in her message. Nor mercy. Nor justice. Because it's injustice. She sounds like a person 'gun-happy' with her discernment. And I'm sorry that's NOT biblical NOR of God. And something to watch out for.

 2007/6/25 16:51Profile









 Re:

Lovegrace said,

Quote:
My message to Katy was 'chill with the absolute condemnation' of these people. She is sounding like she is the Lord Almighty casting down judgment on every fault.



Lovegrace, do you have any specific thing I said or is it the scriptures that bother you. I don't believe I have stated MY personal opinion...just reminding everyone of God's.

Now I do know this, the name of the game is ...lets all compromise here a little and there a little so we can come to some kind of common understanding that we can all get along and agree with. But did you hear what I just said *COMMON* understanding. Hardly. Jesus death on the cross is no common thing and GOD will NEVER allow the message of the Gospel to be compromised just for the sake of peace.

This is a time when Born Again Christians need to be strong, not be intimidated or ashamed by comments as these, getting you to back off so Satan can have his way.

Lovegrace, the problem is ...no one preaches the *wrath* of God coming on those who have rejected the Gospel. Thessalonians. So we better make sure we know what that Gospel is, as Paul told us in Galatians...there is only ONE that can save your soul...all the rest are accursed.

If you find my scripture backing up false teachers offensive, then you are offended by the message of the Gospel of Grace..which is the Cross, which may I add...I am Crucified with Christ...I DIE daily. That is not the same as overcoming your flesh. Word of faith, because they believe Jesus OVERCAME Satan and his demons in hell, and that that is salvation. Their message of overcoming and the message of the Gospel of overcoming are two entirely different things. ***You know by their involvement in this world...they are not overcomers as scripture teaches***. Paul said in Philippians....that I may know Him, and the fellowship of His suffering...being made conformable to His death that I may attain to the resurrection. ...THOSE who mind earthly things are the ENEMIES of the Cross.

I will not back down, as I am not ashamed of the Gospel.

Maybe you just fail to understand different spiritual Gifts.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

;-)

PS, I don't trash people, I defend the Word of God..please know the difference. ALL cult like behavior will always accuse those of defending teh Word of God of being hateful, mean spirited, ect. I've been at this a long time. Ask anyone called to expose cults and they will all tell you the same thing. It gets really ugly. Those who LOVE the Lord and His Word OBEY it. Jesus said it plain and clear.

 2007/6/25 18:39
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

I dont think anyone in their right mind would question the fact that all of you "have the goods" on Joyce and wof.
I dont like what is going on but i believe i have failed to articulate my point.
Like i said earlier i am just a dummie with an opinion.
At best i could only hope to put a little water on fire. I think I picked up the wrong can.
.........David

 2007/6/25 18:47Profile
vsuarez
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 52


 Re:

Brother David,

I don't think you've failed to make your point. I'm sure most, if not all, of us get it.

Let me ask you a questions, how would you present Mr. Hagin to someone that asked you concerning his doctrine? If you would indulge me this one question. Caus' maybe we [u]don't[/u] get it. I want to take the low road and submit to you. How would you explain your position against the teaching? And how would you answer any questions directed at the teacher of the erroneous doctrine?

PS Please stop the insinuations that we are attackers and accusers. You are putting us in the same boat with Satan. Thus doing the same thing you are "accusing" us of doing. You are making us out to be hunters, chasing and cornering some wounded animal. Those who teach this doctrine know exactly what others that oppose their doctrine teach and the scriptures that we use to support our position. So, please stop behaving as if they are these innocent people that just don't know better and need a defense. They made a decision to follow a path of doctrine. And those of us who oppose it are simply pointing out the error. I've listen to the Creflo's of the world make lite of poverty and sickness. Often, those in these conditions are made to feel less than and faithless. Yet does Creflo care that someone is being offended by his doctrine. NO! Rather, he defends it and mocks those who are not healthy and wealthy by calling them 'broke, busted and disgusted'. So don't come to me with this 'oh boo hoo, we're "attacking" those teachers stuff. It's a shame that you seem to have missed MY (our) point. The POOR and SICK are being marginalize and cast aside. They are like collateral damage in this war. Does Creflo care? NO! As long as he can continue to reign in his little kingdom it does not matter to him, Joyce nor Copeland, whatsoever. He won't tell you that though. He'll tell you that he is indeed trying to 'help' the poor, by tell them to 'sow' into his ministry their last bit. I can't write anymore. It's too disgusting. Like Paul said, it a shame even to mention the things that they are doing.

Recently, while attending church, Pastor Wilkerson recounted a heart breaking story concerning this American prosperity gospel. He was ministering in one of the former Soviet Union states to a large group of pastors. Many of them travelled miles with no means to provide for food. But they wanted to hear from God. At some point in the service Pastor Wilkerson told them that they were blessed and that the favor of God was with them. To his surprise, many of them began to cry and weep. Later, he learned that they were under much condemnation because they were not prospering the way these teachings coming from America were proclaiming. They thought God was not with them all because of this doctrine. They were so refreshed to know that they were not foresaken by God and that their lack was not an indication of it.

David,

Do you get it?


Brother Suarez

 2007/6/25 22:18Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

You have me at a disadvantage. I have not watched the videos.Prosperity and the concept of " the child of God does not go through trouble" are troublesome.
Now in hagins Favor I would say the man knew his bible. And i would also say ,to me , Hagin stands alone. He is so different than his followers. He himself wrote a book "Faith Foolishneess and Presumption" in answer to his followers muddying up his teachings.
I am at another disadvantage also. about 12 years ago i experinced tremendous renewal in my walk with Jesus. Well right at that point i had been blasting wof and i mean i absolutely with demonic vengence hated them with every ounce of my being.Because my wife was still in that organization.
when renewal came to my life EVERYTHING changed.My hate melted and seemed like I just loved everyone.well my wife then had a renewal thing happen also and thats when the books went bye-bye.
So at this point we moved to florida. Some really bad things happened there.One of which was my daughter ran away from home and ended up with some satanists.We only had third party communication with her.we couldnt reach her. This was the alltime lowest point of my entire life.I went into the woods every day and cried to Jesus. I would say Jesus please help me can you please please help me? after 3 or4 days of pleading iwas in my shop and God spoke to me. He said STOP IT! Now call out my name in FAITH! So I did.IT WAS AMAZING the whole thing began to turn.God came down.
The next day some people came and offered to help me.Beautiful christian people and I guess God sent them to me.They handed me a hagin tape.
12 steps when faith seems weak and victory is lost. I DEVOURED THOSE TAPES LIKE A HUNGRY LION. Slowly my faiyh began to build deep inside a work was in progress.
I learned a valuble lesson in all this . I dont have victory because things are going well or circumstances are in my favor.When things are nitemareishly horrible and your slammed to the bottom.,I have victory for only one reason Because HE says so.I dont try to get victory or even look for it. It is mine it is part of me and I will never give it up again as long as i live.I believe 100% I damaged my own faith when I attacked wof. This is why i try to steer people away from.........YOu know.
When I was ready to leave the faith I dont know where yall were but it is as if Bro hagin came along side of me.......David

 2007/6/26 0:16Profile
vsuarez
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 52


 Re:

Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems to me that your experience has molded your desposition on this subject. You said you were hating them and going after them with 'demonic vengance'. Perhaps this is influencing your assessment of what we're doing rather than what we are actually doing. I suppose we can deduct from this that your responses to us were in large part influenced by this renewal. ? Do you believe that that season with you daughter was a direct result of your opposition against the WOF doctrine? This just an inference I am drawing. I could be mistaken. I do believe, as with everthing we would ask God to do for us, we must ask in faith, nothing wavering. It seems your crys were in doubt and not faith. So yes, God does have to stop us and re-focus our heart. However, He did not need any of Hagin's books to do this. I mean really, where was Hagin when Abraham was being tested. Your experience has shaped your opinion.

Now, your language is very combative. Allow me to explain. You say things like I have you at a disadvantage. I am not sparring with you. And this is not a contest of wits or experience. What we have been discussing on this thread is very important to me. My responses are passionate for the ones who are un-learned and truly disadvantaged. I love the poor, the sick, the naked, the prisoner. They are the fuel for my zeal. Needless to say Christ is the ultimate fuel. You said something earlier in this thread that is true. Since we can't see each other, it's very hard to gauge whether I am just an angry guy going head-hunting or I have a true zeal and love for the things aforementioned. I hate injustice David. We are no longer under the law, but under grace right? But listen to the law concerning the poor. When a person is reaping their field, they are not to reap the corners. Those corners are to be left for the poor. If produce falls to the ground, they are not to pick it up, but leave it for the poor. How much more now through grace are we to make provision for the poor to pluck from the lives of those more fortunate, without the guilt and condemnation tactics; making them feel worst concering their condition. I believe the reason why God chose the corners of the field was in order to protect the dignity of the poor. Imagine having to go into a field among the workers to pluck fruit from trees you did not plant, tend or pay for. It's embarrasing. The truth is is that nothing belongs to us anyway. The fruit of our lives does not belong to us. So, if God wants to bring someone along the "corners" of your life and pluck from the fruit of your abundance, well, Amen. Remember, the earth is the Lord and the fullness thereof. These word-of-faith people say that blessings of Abraham are what provide us with this sick free, proverty-free life. (Part One of Two)

 2007/6/26 3:14Profile
vsuarez
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 52


 Re:

(Part Two of Two)

If this is true then why make provisions in the law for the poor. Listen to the law again. The law required a lamb in certain offerings. However, God made a way for the poor of the land to obey him by reducing the offering to less expensive things. God is good, is'nt He?? Let's not fail to mention that Jesus said we would always have the poor among us, at least in this lifetime.

David,

We are charged to insure that there is justice in the body of Christ. In Jesus' rebuke of the religious leader he corrected them along these very lines. They were placing more emphasis on Tithes and Offering and forgot justice, mercy, etc. They were not protecting the weak, the poor, the widow, etc. Now to be balanced, Jesus said that while the other parts of the law were indeed more weighty, they were not to neglect obeying the tithing and offering princple. But, justice and mercy takes precedence. This is my point. They (wof) have placed greater weight on what Christ (the One they say they follow and believe in) said was of lesser weight. They provoke many to give what they can't or should not give, compromising their respective family's financial health, all in the name of faith. This is injustice. God is not pleased with this and neither am I.

His Servant,

Brother Suarez

 2007/6/26 3:34Profile
vsuarez
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 52


 Re:

QUOTE:

"Christianity began as a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

When it went to Athens, it became a philosophy.
When it went to Rome, it became an organization.
When it went to Europe, it became a culture.
When it came to America, it became a business."

This is what wof is all about. Through the American enterprise systems men and women have made merchadise of the Word and the people of God. I can't even count how many times I heard a pastor, evangelist or preacher mis-handle the Word of God; treating it like some business venture. Now, I am not saying that there are not some practical business disciples that are needed to run a church. I think you all get my point.

 2007/6/26 5:49Profile





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