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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?

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 Re: Hmmm

crsschk wrote:Annie,
...My, still am baffled where we might be emotionally, spiritually that we can't even take a slight rebuke without going all to pieces? Have I touched some nerve here that is bringing out such a reaction?

Sorry to butt in, Mike.

Just one question: Who is rebuking who? And who is reacting? I don't think you are the only one who has touched a nerve by any means! Sometimes I get the feeling the boot's on the other foot! That's why I asked you to ask the Lord [i]why[/i]?

Love in Him


 2007/6/20 18:39

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708


I have a question for all that believe we should not listen to women in any church setting and that they keep silent.

Is this not the Body of Christ, that is, this forum. Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

If we are to Do what scripture seems to say are we not to listen to these women? Since we are listening and are answering, by the letter of the law what are we as the head of the woman to do with our actions.

I don't see the Christ in them as the villain, but as a sister in Christ. If I am a brother to them in Christ, where is the headship? I see it as being IN CHRIST.

Hebrews 6:1-2 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Reaching for the eternal Christ that is in us and leaving the old principles of His doctrines. How can we keep the principle of women keep silent in the Churches. This probably seems to be heresy to those that cannot hear. I can only see women as fellow heirs of the: Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

I ask God to forgive me in keeping to what man has taught me and my spirit being in line with they are to be under subjection to me. God is giving me His heart and I ask all women that I have ever been in contact with to forgive me. In this revelation also asking God to show me what a miracle they are in His Plan before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4-10 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Even in Him, this is the only place we can go on into perfection, not in the Worldly church but in the Body of Christ His Church which the gates of hell will not prevail against.

Praise God or Father who has made us all ONE in Him.

Revelation tears are flowing, Sorry.

In Christ: PHillip


 2007/6/20 22:17Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Spiritual Fortitude

Reaching for the eternal Christ that is in us and leaving the old principles of His doctrines.

Excuse me? Brother ... [i]What?[/i]!

How can we keep the principle of women keep silent in the Churches. This probably seems to be heresy to those that cannot hear

Or to those who would rule the Scriptures to their own destruction ... My goodness, is this what "[i]I think, I feel[/i]" that we will base our faith upon? Brother, let your emotions go the way of the cross and [i]think[/i] about this, it is heresy of the highest order.

What in the world is going on here saints?

I have a question for all that believe we should not listen to women in any church setting and that they keep silent.

Actually you should address this to Paul and since he is not presently speaking you will have to either take his word for it or ...

That is a colossal amount of pouring each others heads into my own here by way of some of these ... comments and just as much assumption that I am making all these quantifications that I have never stated nor inferred, yes I must be vague and general it is far too much to attempt to answer point by point, clarification upon clarification. Is it entirely possible that this is what many are doing here, thinking my thoughts for me, guessing at them. In all honesty it doesn't bother me to even make mention of it, not offended just baffled ...

I am really going to be earnest here and blunt.

I am not angry.
I am not about to defend or retract.
I am not being prideful.
I am not going to go on pitting one thing against another ...

This little explanation has no offense, no hidden agenda, no pity sought, none given, not unruly or emotionally driven ... noting of the sort and nothing that one might think to add to it ... Questions. Asking questions, some as statements, some as questions still, I am dead, I am not here, someone else is talking ...

With all that as a backdrop and hoping against hope that it covers every conceivable possibility of misconstruing ...

Has any of the profound messages from so many dead living Brethren gotten down into the fiber of our beings here? It is both question and somewhat accusatory, honestly. I think there is something brewing personally that has gotten to a point of throwing off all the niceties for niceties sake and wants to just be plain and speak plain, do not most of these men that have whole life histories here do as much? Is it 'imitation' or absorption? There is a subtle little trap that I have come to recognize that takes this 'balancing' thing a bit too far and ends up dodging hard questions in their wake.

One of the greatest is this ideal that we must be constantly apologizing for these names, these tremendous men of God because .... We don't want to think we are following them? We don't ascribe to live out our lives as they did? That there is something amiss by quoting and appreciating all that they have done, said, bled into our own fabrics? It is all coming to a point of just so much [i]rubbish[/i]!

The reason for that mention is because it undermines so much and puts a sort of [i]usurping[/i] of us minions, yes, minions that we are in so many ways, look whose talking! Lot's of talking, but I am nothing, of little importance and I am not worried about some poor self esteem or other nefarious perverted sense of entitlement. Who cares what I think ultimately? Nothing to say? Hardly ... just to regain some perspective here.

I am very much afraid we can be in danger of too much ... [i]fragility[/i] and what I really wanted to say earlier and hesitated ... Ah, see what I mean? Too cautious perhaps? I think the Lord is trying to a deeper work indeed and that is to toughen us up, [i]spiritually[/i]. It certainly is in this fools case. I recognize the easy error or pendulumitis, of yet another extreme, of playing one off the other, from 'kindness and gentleness' to harshness and anger and mean spiritedness ... It's a clever trick we can play and just as diabolical, a bent balance, maybe that's it.

All this is interesting on two levels. The reactions borne of a lot of assuming and the question or questions that were being attempted to look at some key wording in two verses, the same two verses and ... what comes of it? Upheaval! Why? Is there something more going on than we would admit to notated by the reactions?

Is it a rebellion, or rebellion itself?
Would all this sound different if it was someone else attempting it? If it was Art Katz and his personality speaking it (of course he wouldn't have botched the half of it) would it ...'sound' different? That is high compliment not an insinuation. And insert whoever you may, Baxter or Tozer, anybody from this rich heritage here ... Ravenhill? Would he treat this ... [i]lightly[/i]?

What does history, apostolic at that, have to say to this matter?

Simply, plainly, why did Paul say what he said?

We need some spiritual backbone saints, too easily offended, too swayed by all this infiltration of the worlds thinking ... it's there, it's in there, it's still in us ...

Mike Balog

 2007/6/21 1:01Profile

Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481

 Re: Spiritual Fortitude

hi,when bro. len would preach in our homes he would go until martha said it was time to go and he would quickly pack up and go home..jimp

 2007/6/21 4:07Profile

 Re: Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?

Well Mike,

Thanks for another attempt at communication. Of course I've read what you wrote, but you're not saying enough to make sense. You're leaving far too much to [i]guesswork[/i] on the part of the reader. Either you have never seen godly eldership giving women liberty to speak in church (not including teaching) and this is a big miss in your spiritual experience, or you are doubting the assurances which are coming from the sisters here, that we are appropriately quiet when that is required.

One big thing [i]missing[/i] in churches today, is opportunity for open questions and answers, as would happen in a classroom. Paul did debate publicly - presumably with the learned men - and Diane has been telling me that the Old Testament scripture was not intended for women primarily.

But, it is clear from the New Testament that there is a new dispensation towards women [i]being allowed to learn along with men[/i] only not to take up space with their questions in the public assembly of saints, and not to expect that being in on the lesson would qualify them to [i]teach in church[/i] at a later date.

There is nothing else in the New Testament which indicates that the other gifts of the Spirit are never given to women, nor, that those gifts should be smothered by the brethren, in an extension of the prohibition to [i]teach[/i], yet you implied this by your reading of 1 Cor 14 in an earlier post.

Perhaps this is why the women who followed Him are mentioned by Matthew and Mark in their gospels, and by Luke in his record of pentecost?

This is the overwhelming balancing in favour of women enjoying the same liberty in the Spirit as brethren. In fact, as I write, I can see that there [i]is[/i] a problem if the Holy Spirit does give some women the gift of being a teacher.

What are these women to do? Is Paul really binding God's hands to [i]prevent[/i] Him from giving a woman to be a teacher? Has God complied with Paul's pronouncement, or not?

Or is he saying, as I think is more likely, that when he himself is present in a local church, he expects to be given room to teach without any interference from the sisters. Because in another place (Gal 6:5) he exhorts those who are being taught, to share what they are learning from the word with their teachers. Presumably, this is done privately rather than amongst the gathered saints, and it may even include sisters?

I hope you're not going to throw up your hands in horror at this, but the best exposition I have ever heard of the meaning of Samson's life was shared by a sister in the presence of the whole church - including the elders. :-o Were these men at fault for letting the word of God come through a sister at that moment in time?

That is not intended as a rhetorical question. This was a good experience of body ministry, all the more powerful [i]because[/i] there was nothing in it which an elder had to correct afterwards - not that they would have, believing the witness of the Holy Spirit against a word, is able to do that work in the event of a blip of a mistake.

A Hebrew maid was able to direct Naaman to Elisha. Amen? And when free education in Britain began to include girls, some daughters had the privilege of teaching their [i]daddies[/i] to read. Wasn't that wonderful?

 2007/6/21 7:31

 Re: Sly accusations here.

crsschk wrote:Annie,
...My, still am baffled where we might be emotionally, spiritually that we can't even take a slight rebuke without going all to pieces? Have I touched some nerve here that is bringing out such a reaction?

Reading my post again, this reply stinks to High Heaven - literally.

I feel none of the above. Not you or anyone here could make me feel the above.
Don't flatter yourself so. I stated SCRIPTURALLY with a break down of Scripture of "a woman's place" in the Order of the Church.
You've touched No nerve --- except with this snide reply to my post on this previous page -- this sort of demeaning reply to it and to us as woman of God. SI forums is Not my life - as it may be for you and some.
I love the members here, that's why I wanted to come see them while on line again and the contents that Greg has provided, so that I give this Site out to a very many Christians. But to have that thought even enter your mind, or keyboard, that I or any other of the women are - "going to pieces" or "where we [us ladies] might be emotionally, spiritually that we can't even take a slight rebuke" or that you've "hit some nerve" in me or others, is something that you may want to rethink. I am far from anyone's emotional whimp. This thread has been nothing but a cat and mouse game and I feel only insulted 'for' the ladies who have tried to tell you all along, that they do not usurp authority over men.

This quote below that I wrote, is what made me say that you are wasting these ladies time, with your constant pleonasms on things these ladies already said that they agree with -- ie. Woman in authority.

THIS is what I gave as my reason for seeing the waste of 'precious' time this thread has been.

There are urgent needs and messages going on right now, that the few who feel the burden to post on these current events and their implications feel stimied to do so, because of constant go-arounds like this one has been ... and to what end ?

I'm sorry Mike, but the quote that LittleGift posted above, reveals a lot of what you are thinking of your abilities just yet.

Still praying.

 2007/6/21 8:46

Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas


Dear ladies,

I would ask that you show our moderator the grace of Christ and season your posts with more godly humility. The topic of submission is emotionally charged, and some of the replies here indicate that this is indeed a sore area. Why is this, when it comes to submission? Why all the defense, the vituperations, the strong treatment you are showing to Mike? You post beautifully uplifting threads that magnify God...but then create an upheavel on the topic of submission. And it has now gotten to the point where you are being ungraceful towards our (and your, if you enjoy the fruits of SI) moderator, Mike Balog. Some of these posts would have deen better done in private. In the midst of a fellowship (which this is), should women stand to publically defy an elder's admonition in the gathering of the saints? Is this what Paul taught the women to do? My dear sisters, I believe that more respect and a greater fear of God is in order here.

May the Lord bless you as you prayerfully consider this.

Brother Paul

Paul Frederick West

 2007/6/21 9:20Profile

 Re: Godly Humility.

Brother Paul, you know I respect you, but first I'd like to say that the "ladies" here have shown the utmost respect for Mike. In fact, above and beyond, if looking at the whole of the thread.

Your observation of my last post was based upon the 'first' of the attacks on this thread to me/us which originated 'from' Mike.

[b]crsschk wrote:Annie,
...My, still am baffled where we might be emotionally, spiritually that we can't even take a slight rebuke without going all to pieces? Have I touched some nerve here that is bringing out such a reaction?[/b]

A lot was "implied" by this judgment on me - that could also reflect on the other ladies as well. When they were all feeling such pathos for Mike in their posts, we were being accused of not following along with "usurp not", when we all were.

Godly Humility must be between us 'all', even within a Church. No matter what a person's position "in The Church" - which we all are a part of ... there is and was no justification for this, that has been posted by brother Mike - especially in view that I've agreed with the verses at question consistently and the ladies here also were agreeing on not usurping authority from the beginning.

We have not been full of defense, vituperations, and strong treatment toward a brother - quite the vice versa, my dear brother.

I think it may help if you re-read the former how ever many pages of what each of the possibly 5 of us have written thus far, and were written with much care, "concern", personal feelings of warmth and respect for Mike.

Your post is truly only concerning 'me', for I am the only one who has confronted Mike with his demeaning words in reply to my post.
The "ladies" do not merit any rebukes. I am the one who responded just now to a brother's 'reading things into my post' that weren't there in the slightest, nor through-out this entire thread.

I respect you highly and even Mike, but sometimes "any" human can see wrong or say the wrong things. That is the case on this thread now, from the previous page to your post.

Love in Him.

 2007/6/21 10:28

 Re: Lunch time yet ?

Mike, re-reading your post ... yes, you did sandwich the quote in question with some very nice words and for those, I thank you and say these things are also being felt mutually.

What I had missed in your post, probably for some psycho-babble reason ... but I know it was because, it hadn't entered my mind to do so before was....

Mike -
Hope you hang around a bit longer and don't you dare stop or think to stop if I am in need of rebuke.

Well, I guess I didn't "think" to stop above.

Funny, how what I never thought to do, as in "rebuke you", turned out to be prophetic on your part, but never my intent upon returning.
Not sure if this all will turn for the good or not ... but again --- "still praying".

Love to you also.

 2007/6/21 11:09

 Re: Outworking of the Law?

Edit. Words were true, but won't help at the moment!

 2007/6/21 14:01

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