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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?

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 Re:Funny 'LittleGift' .

OH LORD no, I'd rather be a Llasa Apso.

Edit: I tried to keep the above short so it wouldn't flip the page # but it did anyways.

Llasas may have a 'longer nose', hair that needs to be 'unmatted' (hair-covering), may 'seem fierce' but can't bite to high and one good swift kick sends them flying ~ :-?

 2007/6/19 15:37



GrannieAnnie wrote:
OH LORD no, I'd rather be a Llasa Apso.

Edit: I tried to keep the above short so it wouldn't flip the page # but it did anyways.

Llasas may have a 'longer nose', hair that needs to be 'unmatted' (hair-covering), may 'seem fierce' but can't bite too high and one good swift kick sends them flying ~ :-?

HAHAHA :lol: I wonder what a cross between the two would look like?

Better not speculate - the mind boggles!

Maybe you're right, a Llasa Apso would be less worrying to sheep!


 2007/6/19 15:59

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Muddy

But isn't it interesting that you are really struggling with the issues which arise / have arisen for women - who are not married, or who are divorced, or who are married to those not fulfilling entirely the role (Christ not being their head) - who have been thrown towards Christ as the only Head to whom safely to submit in spiritual terms?

Have you wondered why you are willing to suggest we (those discussing here) are [i]usurping[/i] the place of men? What men? Christians? Males? Against what (prior?) mental template are you comparing us? Truly, is it [i]only[/i] scripture you're using as your guide?

Hi Linn,

Sigh ... earlier this afternoon read back through these and started a response that was entitled "Uncle!" As in 'I give up' ...

Figured I would attempt to clear up a couple of things upon later thought. I am not struggling here at all as it may seem, nor in the other mentions. I must say I do get a bit wary of hearing this sort of thing, it seems to be quite a bit of reading into things and borders on that sort of psychological ... babble that I am not fond of at all. Sorry if that sounds too personal or mischievous or ... Goodness! Perhaps that is my frustration if there must be one ... all this extra, all this other, what I think, my opinion, yes this, no not that, clarify and over clarify and quantify and, and, and ... Perhaps it is just in the lousy way of getting these things across that there is an expectation of just to narrow the view that is asking too much? 2 verse's and it seems hardly any interest whatsoever to delve into them though they seem so pertinent to even the original question asked here. They at best are given a very short shift, a quick nod and then on to endless extrapolations, theories, other things, inferences, confusion, pragmatism ... side things, insinuations ... egads!!

Rebellion as rebellion.
Usurping as usurping.
Authority as authority.

What are they as [i]substantive[/i]?
What is the very [b][i]point[/i][/b] of Paul bringing in a matter of origins and function and design and order into the mix of the large verse, is it really unimportant? Forget all this other stuff for just [i]a moment[/i] is all that I have been attempting for ... how many pages?

Jeanette again is much closer to the point in that it seems imminently important and the diversion from this is what broke forth the cry of [i]Rebels[/i]! The reactions again are interesting and I cannot say this was designed to get one, not the intention, never did it cross my mind until ... hearing all the reaction, it is still all something else, something other and ... seemed to warrant the tag that was an attempt to force the issue itself not necessarily a smiting of anyone. The plain truth of the matter is that we are indeed rebels yet still. And I think a lot this proves it, myself included. In a way I am shouting above the din, in earnest certainly and ... what? More analysis? More dissecting the nuance's of ... I am grinning and chuckling at this even as I write, it just seems so ... over the top!

It's not about meekness or not being meek, but a concentration upon the text, strictly to derive it's meaning and maybe it is that it is thought to be so simple (it is, it seems) that gives it such a glancing pass.

This may well find better footing elsewhere as I am seeing in it the roots of authority as God gives it and meant it. Have quite a bit written and have been dwelling on it for quite some time, years likely. The 2 messages from Stephen Kaung, redundant again.

To let out a bit here, a 'first things' perhaps and one great quote I heard from Chuck Swindoll last week that he quoted of someone else that is part of the thinking and applicable to the 'rebel' charge;

The premise,

[i]For there is no authority but of God;[/i] For there is no authority but of God; ([i]Edit: accidental redundancy there ... meant to reference Rom 13:1[/i])

The quote;

"[i]The critics need to lighten up and the criticized need to toughen up![/i]"

BTW, you did steal some of my thunder with the comments on the centurion, a bit of a twist there in emphasis but very much the crux of the matter.

Will see what can of trouble this will stir up.

Mike Balog

 2007/6/19 23:57Profile

 Re: Muddy?

Mike said: What is the very point of Paul bringing in a matter of origins and function and design and order into the mix of the large verse, is it really unimportant? Forget all this other stuff for just a moment is all that I have been attempting for ... how many pages?

The point is to remind us of the principles of right relationships with one another. Men and women, ordered under one Head, which is Christ. Also, to APPLY those principles in the local church situation.

The principle governs the application, not the other way around! The point is NOT to fix a rigid rule of procedure, so that there can be no exceptions, for even the most humble and Godly woman.

Yours in Him


 2007/6/20 7:21

 Re: Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your reply.

I don't know if you are flogging a dead horse. To be honest, if I could work out [i]exactly[/i] what is bothering you, perhaps I or anyone could answer it [i]exactly[/i]. I'm beginning to wonder - now that I've hacked out a reply worth at least two posts - whether you are trying to say something about [u]men[/u] in the Church [i]not women[/i]?

None of us, in our unique circumstances, is going to be able to provide a rigidly similar response, because our experience of God's work with us and in us, has been tailored to our individual needs of circumstances, through which He has made or is making His callings known to us - and possible.

Genesis 16 (NKJV)
9 Now the Angel of the LORD found her [Hagar] by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur.
13 Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, "Have I also here seen Him who sees me?"
14 Therefore the well was called Beer Lahai Roi... ['The well of the Living One, my beholder' (Young)]

I had a similar experience to Hagar, in that I found God where I had not thought He could be found, and also I realised [i]He had found me[/i]. This discovery was foundational to everything that followed - which was mainly a deconstruction of what I'd thought I believed through what I'd heard in many sermons (but obviously had not understood!) coupled with a truly practical application of what I did really know for myself about God, from experience.

Later, some years ago, God spoke to me in my kitchen. It was almost audible it was so clear. It's the only time He's ever spoken that kind of word to me and into me. I am bound by it now, but / and, I love it. It peeled away my previous expectations with the clause 'It's not going to be what you think'. And, as it comes to pass in my experience, I am inwardly warmed and amazed by His precision. It is also awesome to be under His hand in this way, but that doesn't mean it's not scary, as one ignores the outward trappings of religious obeissance, and walks in the Spirit through occasionally flying flak, wondering if one is overconfident, or merely faithful.

Forrest believes all authority is vested in Christ and she submits to Him as the only 'lord' in her life. Is there a problem with that?

I agree, but would add that all authority is vested in Christ only [i]because[/i] He did His - now [i]our[/i] - Father's will, and that we only are given true spiritual 'authority' to speak (preach, prophesy, pray etc.) in Jesus name [u]according to the will of our Father[/u]. This doesn't mean that (for instance) a prayer will never be in the flesh, but it is not our [i]intention[/i] to pray 'in the flesh', because we are earnestly desiring to pray only in the Spirit.

This is why my emphasis (expressed in other threads) on [u]listening[/u] for His word on a situation before committing it as [i]His will[/i] to prayer, (my will having previously (I mean, in principle, years ago) having become subject to His will completely). Despite what it may sound like sometimes, if I know what God thinks, then I don't have an opinion. In fact, I don't have a lot of 'opinion' that isn't formed on the basis of His word. As you know, I still grapple with surprising things sometimes, but I'm not embarrassed to say 'I don't know'.

In most cases where I have heard women teaching in church, it has been under the authority of the eldership if she is single, and additionally under the authority of her husband if she is married. This has been my example, except in the case of Dr Baxter, who would have been chosen over the men who also applied for the position, and the lady preachers in the Methodist ciruit. Perhaps this is different to what you have seen practised. I don't know. But I do know that I sense the authority of God in these women and I [i][b]do know[/i][/b] that's because they have been [u]obedient[/u] to HIM.

philologos makes it very clear in his exposition of the Greek in the thread to which I linked a couple of pages ago, that Paul is [u]forbidding a [b]regular[/b] teaching ministry[/u], to women [u]in church[/u].

I suppose that their freedom to 'teach' in other situations (such as 'the world'), is on a similar basis to Paul's comment here:

1 Cor 5 (KJV)
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; [u]for then must ye needs go out of the world[/u].

In other words, [i]of course[/i] it is okay for a woman to teach in a worldly situation - even to teach scripture knowledge and how to pray, or to plant, or childcare and so on into many educational and industrial situations - else [i]we[/i] must [u]needs go out of the world[/u].

Let me confess here, that I do have a fear of being asked to suspend my spiritual discernment and my hearing of God's voice, in favour of swallowing - hook line and sinker - the words of a man who carries title 'teacher' and status / authority within a religious organisation, [i]merely[/i] given by another man or men.

One of the most striking visions I've ever had, had the interpretation that I could never be lied to again (after my cultish experience). You're right, I would sit quietly during the 'service' of such lies, but I would not sit under them more than once. Do you see that that's okay with God?

In insisting that women accept not to teach in church, there must be a real caviat which releases them from submission to error. While Eve was deceived, it was Adam who sinned.

This reminds me of the verse in John 10 where Jesus says the hireling [u]sees the wolf coming[/u] and leaves the sheep to their fate. How horrifying that [u]men[/u] have this much insight and would rather abandon their post than sort their heart out with God, and [u]stand[/u] for Him with His people.


 2007/6/20 10:30

 Re: Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach


I've read the whole chapter (1 Tim 2) in both Tyndale and Young, and without doubt Paul is directing men to their personal as well as their public ministries of prayer and leadership. 'I will that men pray everywhere...' (KJV)

Something about the mention of deception, underlines what God knew about Adam the man in the Garden - that a) he was [u]not[/u] deceved and b) he had a [i]conscience[/i].

Adam really knew what was going on, and that's why the male is charged with sorting out the correct order of what [i]should be believed, and with delivering it to the congregation[/i].

This is not to say that men cannot be deceived, (or does it imply that they cannot?) nor that they will always tune in to truth accurately. And, as anyone can tell, not every man is a 'teacher' by gifting. (!)

(Young) 1 Timothy 2:... 8 I wish, therefore, that men pray in every place, lifting up kind hands, apart from anger and reasoning; 9 in like manner also the women, in becoming apparel, with modesty and sobriety to adorn themselves, not in braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or garments of great price, 10 but--which becometh women professing godly piety--through good works. 11 Let a woman in quietness learn in all subjection, 12 and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness, 13 for Adam was first formed, then Eve, 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been deceived, into transgression came, 15 and she shall be saved through the child-bearing, if they remain in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

'... [u]men[/u] pray in every place, lifting up kind hands, apart from anger and reasoning; 9 in like manner also the [u]women[/u]...'

The kind where you sit quietly [i]with all the men also sitting quietly[/i] and [u]one person[/u] male or female, does all the talking and leading, (apart, perhaps, from scripture readings being given by one man and one lady), is not proper, healthy, participatory 'church'; nor 'body ministry'. Perhaps the quagmire of words you have fallen into - if you have - is simply through not having said at the outset something which communicated that women are equal in Christ as ministers in every other way, [i]except as teachers within church?[/i].

But you keep saying 'no, not that'.... So [i]what?[/i]

Do you mean that when someone posts a thread like this, you want the sisters to sit back and watch the brothers defend THE 'place of women' in THE CHURCH? If so, [i]where are they all?[/i]

Young's 'nor to rule a husband but to be in subjection', is much gentler (typical Young), than the KJV's - 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

As I read v 12, there is an [u]unspoken[/u] charge on the man [u]to take[/u] the leadership, as much as there is on the woman to follow her leader and [u]not[/u] take over his role.

The true equality of the relationship must come out, though, at times of sickness and poverty, and in the exploitation of each spouses' natural gifts and cultivated skills for* their common good.

Perhaps this* attitude has been taken [i]far[/i] too far in churches, as a substitute for true spiritual wealth through [i]true[/i] spiritual gifts and ministries.

 2007/6/20 10:50

 Re: Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?

Hi Mike,

(I chopped this off the end of my last post, as it stands alone.)

I've shared in a thread previously, an anecdote from a men's prayer breakfast, where one brother presented the idea that the husband should be the one to receive all the revelation for his family, his wife included. In other words, God should pass all the spiritual insight for the family through him.

Sounded great; until one of the brothers present remembered how often the Lord had given his wife a word for him, for his blessing and edification. He began to wonder if he was up to the task of receiving [i]all[/i] the revelation necessary on her behalf also....? And concluded swiftly that this was not practical! He [i]needed[/i] her to be able to hear from God on her own behalf - [i]as well as his[/i]. And the time factor required for the first brother's suggestion, also militated against it.

Please, Mike, put something definitive in answer to the questions I've littered through the last two posts. Perhaps they can roll into just one sentence, but please, [i]do it! Write it![/i]

When I do 'go to church', I do submit to the local authority... temporarily. Now, I've exhausted all the revelation I have so far. :-D

 2007/6/20 10:58

 Re: The Stick

Well, once again Mike has impressed a very big lesson into me.

I called the last one the stick, this one was the tazer {however that thing is spelled). Tazers paralyze.

My "free month" with my ISP ends Monday, and after the year off I enjoyed with God and his (flesh & blood) people and getting out of the house to visit the elderly and such, I think I'll take that free month and just call it another experience and pull the plug again.

No, it's not that Mike has changed my views, that I've held consistently for 30 years on this topic .... but he's made me see what's being neglected while I sat here wasting valuable time 'Not' Communicating.
I see Christ's love among the sisters here and so with that, I am content.

Had this thread gone differently, on Mike's part and not become a "let's play catch" type of thing, and these dear sisters trying to run to keep up -- I wouldn't be typing this right now.
There are urgent needs and messages going on right now, that the few who feel the burden to post on these current events and their implications feel stimied to do so, because of constant go-arounds like this one has been ... and to what end ?

Happy to have met those who were new to me upon returning to cyberspace and Dorcas, Pastorfrin, Nellie, ginnyrose, Robert, Aaron and all the others I knew from before.

I still feel that persecution will either finish or perfect Christ's prayer for Unity in His Church. Jn 17.

Love you all and more than you all will know, until we see HIM.
Always and forever and ever.

 2007/6/20 15:41

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA



It's lunch here and must be brief ... I am not sure exactly what you might mean here and it is a bit difficult to ascertain ... But this is not towards you if that is what you are thinking, really it is not towards anyone specifically, in that manner ... For quite awhile there I thought you were making much of the very same point for me, early on ...

My, still am baffled where we might be emotionally, spiritually that we can't even take a slight rebuke without going all to pieces? Have I touched some nerve here that is bringing out such a reaction?

Annie, if anything I have actually enjoyed your company since being back ... think I learned quite a few things since you have been gone, the perspective has changed somewhat in a general sense and to be very honest, the last couple of weeks have been something that the Lord for certain has been pushing me out of my comfort zones ... Hard to describe and likely why a great deal of this might be so misconstrued. I might be able to present it better if I even knew just what it is that is going on. It is going on all right and have been ... pleasantly surprised by it all ... Just digging down even deeper into things ...

Hope you hang around a bit longer and don't you dare stop or think to stop if I am in need of rebuke. This is really not what it seems ...

Linn, will catch up on all this this evening.

Mike Balog

 2007/6/20 16:04Profile

 Re: Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?

Hi Mike,

Glad of all you said in your post to Annie, but I understand her thinking if she feels her time would be better spent out in the field of practical ministry to those God gives her.

I might be able to present it better if I even knew just what it is that is going on. [b]It is going on all right[/b] and have been ... pleasantly surprised by it all ... Just digging down even deeper into things ...

Linn, will catch up on all this this evening.

Mike, thanks.

Some things can't be rushed, but if you [i]have[/i] something to say, please [i]go for it[/i]. :-D

 2007/6/20 16:16

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