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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?

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Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: A Woman Speaking Under Authority


LittleGift wrote:
Just a question:

Consider a small group of about 5 Christians, in a dangerous situation, such as war or persecution. Most of them are comparatively new believers with little Bible knowldge.

The person who is most mature and has a knowledge of the Word happens to be a woman.

Would she be allowed to teach them?




Being the practical person that I am, I think that in your group of five, with 4 babes in Christ, and 1 older Christian of any variety, the older and more mature person in Christ should talk all the Jesus they know, until they can find someone, again of any variety, with more knowledge, to help out.

I genuinely feel concern for the Body of Christ, whether male or female, that there is so little Word being spread, to the point that one wonders if any of the Church Corporate care enough about the Great Commission to overturn a few traditions to get back to the heart of the Bible.

When I read the Old Testament or the New Testament, I don't focus on who is doing what, only that it got done, and how it got done. And yes, some things are particularly masculine or feminine, while others are good reference material to work from regardless of the gender.

Not belonging to a denominational church, which meets in a building, the rules and regs that trouble some of our male Bretheren don't much come in my way. Perhaps that is why I am so surprised by them.

When people meet at my house, I do, out of the old fashioned politeness that I was taught, turn first to the oldest male present to discuss the Word. But when a man asks for my opinion or for information I have, I'll give him what I know.

Oddly, despite my damaged memory, the Holy Spirit gives me the answers they need, even if I can't quote chapter and verse without my computer. The men I know are only in pursuit of knowledge, and a good discussion, and consequently have no trouble with the possibility that I might, despite my femininity, have information worthwhile to speak about.

And in your example of a small group, where there are some who need access to the Word, and have no Bible, the one who shows the most fruit in the Spirit as well as knowledge in the Word should do the talking, for obviously, they are walking what they talk, and if they are heart tied to Jesus, will be supported by Him in teaching and encouraging the others.



Forrest Anderson

 2007/6/18 2:06Profile

Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: A Woman Speaking Under Authority


Christinyou wrote:
Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ.

1Cr 11:2 ¶ Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered [them] to you.

1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

If this is positional then God is above Christ.
The Glory of God is Christ and the glory of the man is the woman. The man is the Glory of Christ. This does not make anyone greater than the other. It does give obedience to the Son when He says My Father is greater than I. All the while knowing that He is His Father's Glory.
The same would be true of the man, knowing the Christ is greater than He is but the he is the glory of Christ. Think about what would Christ be without God the Father, what would man be without the Son and what would woman be without the man. The woman would be nothing and the man without Christ is nothing. Today being Fathers day lets take the man what would he be without the woman? He would have no glory as a husband or father, thus the woman is His Glory. Without the woman man could not be the head. Without the woman Jesus could not be the Son or Savior.
So God has His glory in the Son and the Son has His glory in the man and the man has his glory in the woman. If women are causing problems in the Church and making confusion of all that is said then women would be told to keep silent in the church. If that was for all women then Paul would not have said for women to prophesy they must have their head covered.

Since God is on the side of the weaker vessels and the weaker things of this world and gives them more honor, who has the most honor in the course of Headship? It is something like this, what do you use a hammer and shovel for. Would you pound a nail with a shovel? I guess you could, but what a mess. Would you dig a ditch with a hammer? It sure would take a lot longer.
I am just saying God has a way of making His creation work and He has set things as He want them. I see no reason that woman can not teach a man as long as her head is covered, with the intention of not lording it over the man. The same for the man with long hair, if he teaches with long hair or his head covered as long as his mind is on Christ then his teaching has short hair. Remember the Spirit of the Law and not the letter?

Just some things to think and pray about....Just saying what has come to me this day of a Father of 7 whom I am not a father without them, they should receive the greater honor for putting up with me. Without a woman and son's and daughters' I would not be a father.

That is why God love us so much and Gave His Only Begotten Son that we might become His son's and daughters. Amen

In Christ: Phillip

Nice exposition - I really appreaciate your commentary on the verses you provided.

Happy Dad's Day to all the male Bretheren on SI, and 7 times over for you, Phillip!



Forrest Anderson

 2007/6/18 2:12Profile

Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


Actually Diane, your verse was good and I went off the 'puter and took it to heart. Believing as I do, that 'nothing' is by accident.

Annie, I suspect that, in the end, little “side trips” like this one is all that will count. While speeding down the highway in our ardent pursuit of a golden nugget of truth (which may remain forever illusive), we can’t forget to slow down and look in the ditch - at the feeble cries of our sisters and brothers who are dealing with REAL issues of life.

As I muse back over my past 2+ years on SI, I’d say those “lesser” paths are actually THE most important aspects of our spiritual walk. God, like the policeman, waves us down, and onto the shoulder of the road - for one-anothering.

Frankly, this entire gender issue is quickly becoming a non-issue for me.

Recently, I have been listening to the sermons from Knox Presbyterian Church in Toronto –and some come close to Spurgeon's (THey are not for the faint-hearted!) - a huge contrast to what I have been hearing in many of our evangelical churches today. One guest speaker is out of the United Church. Another is a female professor at the Anglican Seminary! She gave a straight Bible lesson. I am being blown away -because I know that among these same denominations are also the glitter-eyed followers of Marcus Borg.

So, it boils down to a lesson I learned from “Experiencing God” by Blackaby: Look where God is moving, and move with him.

Do not fear the darkness. God may be there. If all you see and worry about is the bad stuff or the "unbiblical", you are sure to miss God’s hand at work in the midst of it!



 2007/6/18 8:05Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Rebels!

[i]First of all, then, I exhort that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. [u]For[/u] this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[u]For[/u] God is one, and there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

To this I am ordained a preacher and an apostle (I speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie), a teacher of the nations, in faith and truth.

I will [u]there[b]fore[/b][/u] that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. [u]For[/u] Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.[/i] 1Ti 2:1-15


Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

[b]Gen 3:16[/b] -
We have here the sentence passed upon the woman for her sin. Two things she is condemned to: a state of sorrow, and a state of subjection, proper punishments of a sin in which she had gratified her pleasure and her pride.

I. She is here put into a state of sorrow, one particular of which only is specified, that in bringing forth children; but it includes all those impressions of grief and fear which the mind of that tender sex is most apt to receive, and all the common calamities which they are liable to. Note, Sin brought sorrow into the world; it was this that made the world a vale of tears, brought showers of trouble upon our heads, and opened springs of sorrows in our hearts, and so deluged the world: had we known no guilt, we should have known no grief.

The pains of child-bearing, which are great to a proverb, a scripture proverb, are the effect of sin; every pang and every groan of the travailing woman speak aloud the fatal consequences of sin: this comes of eating forbidden fruit. Observe, 1. The sorrows are here said to be multiplied, [i]greatly multiplied[/i] All the sorrows of this present time are so; many are the calamities which human life is liable to, of various kinds, and often repeated, the clouds returning after the rain, and no marvel that our sorrows are multiplied when our sins are: both are innumerable evils. The sorrows of child-bearing are multiplied; for they include, not only the travailing throes, but the indispositions before (it is sorrow from the conception), and the nursing toils and vexations after; and after all, if the children prove wicked and foolish, they are, more than ever, the heaviness of her that bore them. Thus are the sorrows multiplied; as one grief is over, another succeeds in this world. 2. It is God that multiplies our sorrows: [i]I will do it.[/i] God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied.

II. She is here put into a state of subjection. The whole sex, which by creation was equal with man, is, for sin, made inferior, and forbidden to [i]usurp authority[/i], 1Ti_2:11, 1Ti_2:12. The wife particularly is hereby put under the dominion of her husband, and is not [i]sui juris[/i] - at her own disposal, of which see an instance in that law, Num_30:6-8, where the husband is empowered, if he please, to disannul the vows made by the wife. This sentence amounts only to that command, [i]Wives, be in subjection to your own husbands[/i]; but the entrance of sin has made that duty a punishment, which otherwise it would not have been. If man had not sinned, he would always have ruled with wisdom and love; and, if the woman had not sinned, she would always have obeyed with humility and meekness; and then the dominion would have been no grievance: but our own sin and folly make our yoke heavy. If Eve had not eaten forbidden fruit herself, and tempted her husband to eat it, she would never have complained of her subjection; therefore it ought never to be complained of, though harsh; but sin must be complained of, that made it so. Those wives who not only despise and disobey their husbands, but domineer over them, do not consider that they not only violate a divine law, but thwart a divine sentence.

III. Observe here how mercy is mixed with wrath in this sentence. The woman shall have sorrow, but it shall be in bringing forth children, and the sorrow shall be [i]forgotten for joy that a child is born[/i], Joh_16:21. She shall be subject, but it shall be to her own husband that loves her, not to a stranger, or an enemy: the sentence was not a curse, to bring her to ruin, but a chastisement, to bring her to repentance. It was well that enmity was not put between the man and the woman, as there was between the serpent and the woman.

Matthew Henry

[i]If man had not sinned, he would always have ruled with wisdom and love; and, if the woman had not sinned, she would always have obeyed with humility and meekness; and then the dominion would have been no grievance: but our own sin and folly make our yoke heavy. If Eve had not eaten forbidden fruit herself, and tempted her husband to eat it, she would never have complained of her subjection; therefore it ought never to be complained of, though harsh; but sin must be complained of, that made it so. Those wives who not only despise and disobey their husbands, but domineer over them, do not consider that they not only violate a divine law, but thwart a divine sentence.[/i]

Rebellion ~ Submission ~ Obedience ~ words to dwell on.

The world, the flesh and the devil ...
God [i]Himself?[/i] ~ Act 5:39, Act 7:51, Eze 20:38, 2Ch 35:21, Rom 13:1, 2, Jas 4:6, Rev 14:7, ...

Ecc 12:13

[i]Continued ...[/i]

Mike Balog

 2007/6/18 9:23Profile

 Re: Rebels!

This last year being off-line, being homebound, continuing in a disease of much pain & all that's involved in that .... I feel the Lord was refining. Not that I have been made perfect nor apprehended it all --- but one thing I have learned .... where to draw the line between beating people with my big stick and to get the wood out of my eye first by fulfilling the "law of love."

It is strange to what great lengths we go to change others or their beliefs, when Paul said to Titus, Once - twice and that's it ... even to the greatest heresies.

I've seen on other threads and on this one, a true desire to get along.
I've seen most posts as an attempt to make peace and try to understand as much as our small brains can, (compared to the all-seeing, all-knowing GOD), how to get along with eachother IN LOVE .... without which, we are not saved. 200 Scriptures will prove that is 'the' prerequisite.

Judging is wrong. Correcting single individuals has a Biblical limit.

Random thoughtless name calling or titling is not the Spirit of Christ.

When I don't agree with others, I need to Love them all the more. It's not the healthy that need a physician and His medicine is not always a whip.

If The LORD could change a wretch like me, yet I do not give others a chance to be "transformed" by THE GOD and I loose patience with "their" growth ... then that is a trigger to me, that there is a log in the eye (as the parable of he who owed a lot - yet didn't forgive he who owed litte).

Personally, our fighting persistance (from my own personal experience) is a diversion from seeing our own lack of 'whatever' it is that GOD would plainly show us, if we took the time to sit before HIM and wait.

I won't break the love or fellowship over OSAS, Eschatology, or this issue here, because I see our commonality on this Forum and there are no Blatant Heretics on this Forum.

I don't agree with anyone 100% here, and if we were honest, we'd have to say the same.

Forgive me if I'm venting on this particular thread, because actually, there are a few that I feel the same about.

But on this thread, I find no ladies running Churches. And I think Philologos did a good enough job on all the former threads.

Regarding my last post on the previous page ... Thank you who haved and are praying for me.
Those who are not like Job's friends.


GOD Bless all here. You 'all' are precious Lambs to HIM. He will finish the work HE has begun in us.
Pray one for another. Don't accuse or name call each other.

Sabbath's rest all week, to everyone who Loves & longs for His Appearing.

Persecution will finish or perfect our unity.


 2007/6/18 11:52

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Rebels

Continued ...

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, ...

Gen 3:17-19 -
We have here the sentence passed upon Adam, which is prefaced with a
recital of his crime: Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy
wife, Gen_3:17. He excused the fault, by laying it on his wife:
She gave it me. But God does not admit the excuse. She could but
tempt him, she could not force him; though it was her fault to persuade
him to eat, it was his fault to hearken to her. Thus men's frivolous
pleas will, in the day of God's judgment, not only be overruled, but
turned against them, and made the grounds of their sentence. Out of thine
own mouth will I judge thee. Observe,

I. God put marks of his displeasure on Adam in three instances: -

1. His habitation is, by this sentence, cursed: Cursed is the ground
for thy sake; and the effect of that curse is, Thorns and
thistles shall it bring forth unto thee. It is here intimated that his
habitation should be changed; he should no longer dwell in a
distinguished, blessed, paradise, but should be removed to common ground, and that cursed. The ground, or earth, is here put for the whole visible
creation, which, by the sin of man, is made subject to vanity, the several
parts of it being not so serviceable to man's comfort and happiness as
they were designed to be when they were made, and would have been if he
had not sinned. God gave the earth to the children of men, designing it
to be a comfortable dwelling to them. But sin has altered the property
of it. It is now cursed for man's sin; that is, it is a dishonourable
habitation, it bespeaks man mean, that his foundation is in the dust; it
is a dry and barren habitation, its spontaneous productions are now
weeds and briers, something nauseous or noxious; what good fruits it
produces must be extorted from it by the ingenuity and industry of man.
Fruitfulness was its blessing, for man's service (Gen_1:11, Gen_1:29), and
now barrenness was its curse, for man's punishment. It is not what it
was in the day it was created. Sin turned a fruitful land into
barrenness; and man, having become as the wild ass's colt, has the wild ass's lot, the wilderness for his habitation, and the barren land
his dwelling, Job_39:6; Psa_68:6. Had not this curse been in part
removed, for aught I know, the earth would have been for ever barren, and
never produced any thing but thorns and thistles. The ground is
cursed, that is, doomed to destruction at the end of time, when the
earth, and all the works that are therein, shall be burnt up for
the sin of man, the measure of whose iniquity will then be full, 2Pe_3:7,
2Pe_3:10. But observe a mixture of mercy in this sentence. (1.) Adam
himself is not cursed, as the serpent was (Gen_3:14), but only the
ground for his sake. God had blessings in him, even the holy seed:
Destroy it not, for that blessing is in it, Isa_65:8. And he had
blessings in store for him; therefore he is not directly and immediately
cursed, but, as it were, at second hand. (2.) He is yet above ground. The
earth does not open and swallow him up; only it is not what it was: as he
continues alive, notwithstanding his degeneracy from his primitive
purity and rectitude, so the earth continues to be his habitation,
notwithstanding its degeneracy from its primitive beauty and fruitfulness. (3.)
This curse upon the earth, which cut off all expectations of a
happiness in things below, might direct and quicken him to look for bliss and
satisfaction only in things above.

2. His employments and enjoyments are all embittered to him.

(1.) His business shall henceforth become a toil to him, and he shall
go on with it in the sweat of his face, Gen_3:19. His business,
before he sinned, was a constant pleasure to him, the garden was then
dressed without any uneasy labour, and kept without any uneasy care; but
now his labour shall be a weariness and shall waste his body; his care
shall be a torment and shall afflict his mind. The curse upon the
ground which made it barren, and produced thorns and thistles, made his
employment about it much more difficult and toilsome. If Adam had not
sinned, he had not sweated. Observe here, [1.] That labour is our duty,
which we must faithfully perform; we are bound to work, not as creatures
only, but as criminals; it is part of our sentence, which idleness
daringly defies. [2.] That uneasiness and weariness with labour are our just
punishment, which we must patiently submit to, and not complain of,
since they are less than our iniquity deserves. Let not us, by inordinate
care and labour, make our punishment heavier than God has made it; but
rather study to lighten our burden, and wipe off our sweat, by eyeing
Providence in all and expecting rest shortly.

(2.) His food shall henceforth become (in comparison with what it had
been) unpleasant to him. [1.] The matter of his food is changed; he must
now eat the herb of the field, and must no longer be feasted with the
delicacies of the garden of Eden. Having by sin made himself like the
beasts that perish, he is justly turned to be a fellow-commoner with
them, and to eat grass as oxen, till he know that the heavens do
rule. [2.] There is a change in the manner of his eating it: In
sorrow (Gen_3:17) and in the sweat of his face (Gen_3:19) he must
eat of it. Adam could not but eat in sorrow all the days of his life,
remembering the forbidden fruit he had eaten, and the guilt and shame he
had contracted by it. Observe, First, That human life is
exposed to many miseries and calamities, which very much embitter the poor remains of its pleasures and delights. Some never eat with pleasure
(Job_21:25), through sickness or melancholy; all, even the best, have cause
to eat with sorrow for sin; and all, even the happiest in this world,
have some allays to their joy: troops of diseases, disasters, and
deaths, in various shapes, entered the world with sin, and still ravage it.
Secondly, That the righteousness of God is to be acknowledged in
all the sad consequences of sin. Wherefore then should a living man
complain? Yet, in this part of the sentence, there is also a
mixture of mercy. He shall sweat, but his toil shall make his rest the more
welcome when he returns to his earth, as to his bed; he shall grieve,
but he shall not starve; he shall have sorrow, but in that sorrow he
shall eat bread, which shall strengthen his heart under his sorrows. He is
not sentenced to eat dust as the serpent, only to eat the herb of the

3. His life also is but short. Considering how full of trouble his days
are, it is in favour to him that they are few; yet death being
dreadful to nature (yea, even though life be unpleasant) that concludes
the sentence. “Thou shalt return to the ground out of which thou
wast taken; thy body, that part of thee which was taken out of the
ground, shall return to it again; for dust thou art.” This points
either to the first original of his body; it was made of the
dust, nay it was made dust, and was still so; so that there needed
no more than to recall the grant of immortality, and to withdraw the
power which was put forth to support it, and then he would, of course,
return to dust. Or to the present corruption and degeneracy of his
mind: Dust thou art, that is, “Thy precious soul is now lost
and buried in the dust of the body and the mire of the flesh; it was made
spiritual and heavenly, but it has become carnal and earthly.” His
doom is therefore read: “To dust thou shalt return. Thy body shall
be forsaken by thy soul, and become itself a lump of dust; and then it
shall be lodged in the grave, the proper place for it, and mingle
itself with the dust of the earth,” our dust, Psa_104:29. Earth to
earth, dust to dust. Observe here, (1.) That man is a mean frail
creature, little as dust, the small dust of the balance -
light as dust, altogether lighter than vanity - weak as dust,
and of no consistency. Our strength is not the strength of stones; he
that made us considers it, and remembers that we are dust,
Psa_103:14. Man is indeed the chief part of the dust of the world
(Pro_8:26), but still he is dust. (2.) That he is a mortal dying creature,
and hastening to the grave. Dust may be raised, for a time, into a little
cloud, and may seem considerable while it is held up by the wind that
raised it; but, when the force of that is spent, it falls again, and
returns to the earth out of which it was raised. Such a thing is man; a
great man is but a great mass of dust, and must return to his earth.
(3.) That sin brought death into the world. If Adam had not sinned, he
would not have died, Rom_5:12. God entrusted Adam with a spark of
immortality, which he, by a patient continuance in well-doing, might have blown up into an everlasting flame; but he foolishly blew it out by wilful
sin: and now death is the wages of sin, and sin is the sting of

II. We must not go off from this sentence upon our first parents, which
we are all so nearly concerned in, and feel from, to this day, till we
have considered two things: -

1. How fitly the sad consequences of sin upon the soul of Adam and his
sinful race were represented and figured out by this sentence, and
perhaps were more intended in it than we are aware of. Though that misery
only is mentioned which affected the body, yet that was a pattern of
spiritual miseries, the curse that entered into the soul. (1.) The pains
of a woman in travail represent the terrors and pangs of a guilty
conscience, awakened to a sense of sin; from the conception of lust, these
sorrows are greatly multiplied, and, sooner or later, will come upon the
sinner like pain upon a woman in travail, which cannot be avoided. (2.)
The state of subjection to which the woman was reduced represents that
loss of spiritual liberty and freedom of will which is the effect of
sin. The dominion of sin in the soul is compared to that of a husband
(Rom_7:1-5), the sinner's desire is towards it, for he is fond of his
slavery, and it rules over him. (3.) The curse of barrenness which was
brought upon the earth, and its produce of briars and thorns, are a fit
representation of the barrenness of a corrupt and sinful soul in that
which is good and its fruitfulness in evil. It is all overgrown with
thorns, and nettles cover the face of it; and therefore it is nigh unto
cursing, Heb_6:8. (4.) The toil and sweat bespeak the difficulty
which, through the infirmity of the flesh, man labours under, in the
service of God and the work of religion, so hard has it now become to
enter into the kingdom of heaven. Blessed be God, it is not
impossible. (5.) The embittering of his food to him bespeaks the soul's want of the comfort of God's favour, which is life, and the bread of life. (6.)
The soul, like the body, returns to the dust of this world; its
tendency is that way; it has an earthy taint, Joh_3:31.

2. How admirably the satisfaction our Lord Jesus made by his death and
sufferings answered to the sentence here passed upon our first parents.
(1.) Did travailing pains come in with sin? We read of the travail
of Christ's soul (Isa_53:11); and the pains o death he was held by
are called odinai (Act_2:24), the pains of a woman in
travail. (2.) Did subjection come in with sin? Christ was made under the
law, Gal_4:4. (3.) Did the curse come in with sin? Christ was made a
curse for us, died a cursed death, Gal_3:13. (4.) Did thorns come in with
sin? He was crowned with thorns for us. (5.) Did sweat come in with
sin? He for us did sweat as it were great drops of blood. (6.) Did sorrow
come in with sin? He was a man of sorrows, his soul was, in his agony,
exceedingly sorrowful. (7.) Did death come in with sin? He became
obedient unto death. Thus is the plaster as wide as the wound. Blessed be
God for Jesus Christ!

Matthew Henry

Mike Balog

 2007/6/18 15:32Profile


Mike said:
Rebellion ~ Submission ~ Obedience ~ words to dwell on.


I was reading one of Francine River's "Sons of Encouragement" series, (anyone know them?) - The Priest - about Aaron. At one place it says that he realised he still had the mentality of a slave, as if he was still in Egypt.

This really hit me - do I also still have that slave mentality???

Servile, cringing, fear-filled obedience; masking a grudging, complaining, anger-driven heart.

The fear that drives "slave" obedience need not be from an Egyptian slave-master, or a demanding boss in work. It can also come from within one's own heart, and not even seem like fear. But there is a kind of drivenness in the obedience, rather than love, and doing it for the Lord's sake.

It can also be our response to the "rules" in the New Testament.

To give a different (possibly less contentious!) example from the subject of this thread, I covered my head in church for several years, in obedience, as I thought, to Scripture.

But I gradually realised that it was the wrong sort of obedience, and for me it was legalistic bondage.

I'm not saying head covering is wrong, but my heart in doing it was wrong. The slave -mentality motive.

Allow the Lord to get our hearts right, and our obedience will also be right, for the Lord looks upon the heart.

I don't believe this thread is about whether a woman should teach - not really. It's about something much deeper.

The thought is also that, on rare occasions, there is an obedience to the Lord Himself that can appear as rebellion to others, and even to the letter of the God-given Law.

This can be very costly: to be accused of being in rebellion against God is heartbreak to a sensitive soul who wants above all to do His will.

It seems all wrong, to obey God yet at the same time appearing to rebel against His Word. Obedient rebellion??? - a contradiction and a paradox and a puzzle to the mind, but truth all the same.

Yet Jesus did it in relation to the Mosaic law, He always seemed to be upsetting the legalists by breaking the Sabbath, touching lepers and so on...

Yet at the same time He insisted on the fact that "every jot and tittle" of the Law should be fulfilled!

Yes, there are principles laid down in scripture, and we must beware of using reasoning such as above to [i]justify[/i] rebellion against Him - as is fatally easy ot do.

But that will not be the case if we let Him take rebellion out of our hearts.

For we are not talking about the moral law, which is fixed, but matters of relationships to one another, and of church order and behaviour, which can and should be more flexible in their actual outworking in practice.

The Word of God is living. It is not less, but far more than dead words on a page. Words on a page can so easily cause wrangling amongst us, because we do not see the whole picture, and each believes his interpretation is the only truth...

Let us rather seek to obey HIM, from the heart, whatever the cost.



 2007/6/18 19:32

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708


Love, rest and peace, obedience, words to dwell on. The "BETTER WAY".

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Is woman led by the Spirit or is she led by just man? This may sound cynical or argumentative or just plain stupid, but it must be answered.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law

Sin and death are gone to those that are in Christ Jesus. That means the curse of the Law, that is the conviction of sin no longer applies. That Christ and the Spirit of the Law which is much deeper that Law as we know it.

The beatitudes are pure Law, except two. None of the beatitudes are able to be accomplished with a pure heart unless they are done in us by the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit or we are trying to attain their blessedness by our own works.

Mat 5:3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:4 Blessed [are] they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Mat 5:5 Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Mat 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Mat 5:7 Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Mat 5:8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Mat 5:9 Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Mat 5:10 Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

These are the two that are not Law
Mat 11:6 And blessed is [he], whosoever shall not be offended in me.

Mat 13:16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Mat 14:19 And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to [his] disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.

Notice "He blessed" as the Word revealed to Peter which blessed Him. By Christ to the disciples to us, especially to Paul for the Gospel that is Christ in --you--, the bread of life to the multitudes. Born again by Spirit and water. As to the woman at the well, The Spirit of Christ and the Living Water of Life, Jesus Christ Himself in --you--.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

This is our blessedness that leads to the blessedness of the beatitudes that are born again in us by the Spirit of Christ.

Notice there is only one curse and it is upon Satan, not Adam or Eve. These circumstances give to Adam and Eve are certainly looking forward to Christ. If the woman is under the man, she is in deep trouble. If the man is over the woman he in himself will be a dictator. The only way God could have meant this is in Christ the man will be in headship like Christ is in headship over both. Thus the husband can rule over the wife by the Christ that is in him and no other way. How does Christ rule? By 1 Corinthians 13. Just change charity to Christ and the perfectness of His rule over us and man rule over his wife become bright and shiny.

1 Corinthians 13:10-11 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

He is Come and He is in the Spirit that are His and He rules over his brethren, men and women and son's and daughters of His Father.

The Spirit of submission is Christ, The Spirit of teaching is Christ, The Spirit of His choice is His.

In Christ: Phillip


 2007/6/18 19:55Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: About finished

Must it always be either\or ... Yes, but ...?
A quick gilding of a matter to get on to the next, the other, the ... 'what about' ... ?

There seems to be something of a dodge here and I can't help wonder at the aforementioned things above and all those that must force away from this question of authority and usurping are not in fact a state of rebellion in itself. If one has to go through endless clarifications of what is not the issue, 'yes I understand', 'no that is not what I mean-meant-am infering' ... not about legalism, not about lording it over, not about male dominance, not about what Paul said here and there [i]about[/i] gender as if it somehow all dislodges or 'disallows' or whatever it is ...

The sense more than a few here are giving is that this frankly doesn't mean a thing and I am under the impression that it means a great deal and is a great deal of the very problem we have in this hour. That we may well be guilty of trying to be too nice at the expense of elementary principles with pragmatic approaches and distractive mandates. There is so much [i]other[/i] being poured into this that it is little wonder that it has lost it's original intention and understanding, why these things were appealed to in the first place.

This [i]usurping[/i] is deeply spiritual and deathly lethal because it exposes us as frauds if we cannot see how permeating it is even beyond this matter. It is the extension of the same, not [i]another[/i] matter. It made the devil out of an angel and threw him out on his ear. It crucified the Lord in the heart of the Pharisee and the heart of man. It is the one thing all have in common, this right to self rule, which is no right at all, only an usurping.

Many here are practically speaking as if this whole thing has somehow been written off as erased at the cross while it lives on in full manifestation.

The clever twist in all this is not what some of you would have it, as hierarchy and as [i]law[/i] of another vein;

Notice there is only one curse and it is upon Satan, not Adam or Eve.

Oh? No more sweat of the brow or pain in child birth, no more [i]the soul that sins shall die[/i]?

From hearing some here it would seem this whole thing has just been completely abolished;

Sin and death are gone to those that are in Christ Jesus. That means the curse of the Law, that is the conviction of sin no longer applies. That Christ and the Spirit of the Law which is much deeper that Law as we know it.

What?! The conviction of sin no longer applies? This is really getting to be something here and the use of law is so distorted and applied so randomly as to make this all but one of confusion. None of these things apply to establishment, to fixed order, to genders even [i]before[/i] the fall.

When I titled the subheading earlier I was certainly looking on the mirror writing glass as it reflected back at me as much as anything, [i]Rebels![/i] and as the day progresses and these things redound back in my hearing and in my contemplations that bit wanting to wonder if I was mistaken in categorically including too many others at the same time. Perhaps no after all, [i]rebels[/i] indeed.

Don't read I am having a bad day, or what's got him all up in arms or whatever sideway's notion must be attributed and 'balanced' and ... there is a place for all that but I am not particularly angry as just ... baffled! Perhaps I am in error to just not leave well enough alone.

[i]If [u]man[/u] had not sinned, he would always have ruled with wisdom and love; and, if the [u]woman[/u] had not sinned, she would always have obeyed with humility and meekness; and [b]then the dominion would have been no grievance[/b]: but our own sin and folly make our yoke heavy. If Eve had not eaten forbidden fruit herself, and tempted her husband to eat it, [b]she would never have complained of her subjection[/b]; [u]therefore[/u] it ought never to be complained of, though harsh; but sin must be complained of, that made it so.[/i]

Since there is such little complaining going on here and hardly any defending, I must surely be
in error ...



Mike Balog

 2007/6/18 23:12Profile

 Re: Usurping Dominance.


I shot the wod on the top of 16 and added on this page the other side of things because I wasn't sure that I saw any females saying they wanted to usurp authority or dominance over men.

I brought up Elisabeth Elliot and Corrie Ten Boom as woman who had been asked to speak at Churches. I don't know what else to say.

If you'd like to get your Head back in place ... read this in the Spirit and not yer brain.
It [u]cannot[/u] be understood with the natural man's head. It's quite beautiful.

Sorry, puter won't let me use buttons to shorten URLs. I don't know why.

Love in Him.

edit:typo ~ sorry!

 2007/6/19 0:37

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