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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Doctrine: Why Should I Believe Yours?

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InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2779
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
I am grateful that God blessed me with my Bible, Tozer, and my salvation...But I am utterly bitter about the state of affairs in the churches that left a poor bastard like me out in the cold for so long.



Dear brother, I am puzzled by this. You thank God for the unspeakable gift of His forgiveness and in the next moment express your unforgiveness and bitterness towards others. This should not be so.

May I humbly ask that you read the following article and do exactly as the writer recommends in regards to making a list. I have found his advice to be of great value in dealing with bitterness and unforgiveness.

[url=http://www.gospeltruth.net/1835Lect_on_Rev_of_Rel/35revlec03.htm]Breaking up Your Fallow Ground[/url]

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/5/15 20:41Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re: Doctrine: Why Should I Believe Yours?

Corey,

The best thing you can do is open your bible, read it, pray about what you read, keep asking tons of questions, listen to all points of view, ask God to reveal the truth and always keep your eyes on Jesus.

 2007/5/15 20:42Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:

Corey,

You are less alone than you think.

Denominations are compromises, not God's word!

Not one of them is wholly true, and many are deeply wrong.

I agree with Jaysaved - stick to your Bible, and listen to the Holy Spirit.

But you must learn to forgive the hurts others have dealt you, even if they have done so on purpose. But if you consider the matter, you will find that when even our nearest and dearest friends and relatives hurt us, much less another member of the entire Corporate Church of Jesus Christ, the hurts are done from ignorance, carelessness, and selfish disregard of what Jesus wants from us.

Being a Christian is hard in this world, and it will get harder, because the Devil is using us all against the other like attack dogs, although hopefully not on SI.

We cannot agree on everything. But we agree on the essential, salvation points, and that is what is necessary, since they are prophetical in nature.

Was Jesus born of a Virgin?
Is Jesus the only Begotten Son of God?
Did He live a perfect Human life?
Did He voluntarily die for our sins?
Was He resurrected from death on the 3rd day?
Did He ascend into Heaven?
And are we covered by His blood, except we turn from Him?
Is Jesus coming back?

If all answers are yes, then we all believe the same essentials. The details are interesting, and are supportive of the main points, but without the main points, the details would be nothing!

God planned Jesus as His failsafe in getting a human family. It worked, He's got one. But the process is painful, and not everybody goes to heaven. Just remember, they are choosing not to.

Blessings,

Forrest

P.S. This why I don't have a denomination!!!! Jesus, the Bible, and the Holy Spirit are my base, and Christians my family, to squabble with.
And in Heaven, Jesus will give us the entire explanation.

Be patient with those who love the Lord, but disagree on details of how God accomplished all that He did in Jesus. And forgive, truly forgive anyone who comes against you, even as we are forgiven.


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/15 22:30Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Corey,

I read your post in which you tell how you cried at 3 AM, and were converted. I liked that.

And I would like to say, you are not a poor b*.
You have a Father, and, like Isaac, you have a Mother (Gal. 4.26).

Yes, there is a lot to be bitter about in denominational Churchianity. I agonize over it too. But let's not let it consume us. Those who are hearing His Voice are beginning to be aware He is doing "a new thing." I want to be part of that New Thing. "My meditation of HIM (in the midst of all the bitterness) ...shall be sweet."

AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2007/5/15 23:07Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Doctrine: Why Should I Believe Yours?

Quote:
I have encountered multiple doctrinal contradictions on this forum and in my search for the true church. I've heard Charismatics, Cessassionists, Arminians, Calvanists, Hypercalvanists, Evangelicals, Baptists, Anglicans, all claim to point the "better", "safer", even "funner" way to Jesus. Truth be told, I don't trust any of them.



Good. Don't. But don't throw the baby out with the bath water. You have to realize that these may be forwarded here as thought stemming from those various ... holdings but that does not mean those bringing them out to the fore necessarily belong to them. It is often difficult to tell, but I would venture to say that most here are not very fond of denominational ism, for what it's worth I certainly am not.


Quote:
On the one hand I'm told we're not under the old law. On the other I witness (and participate in) a thread containing over 50 posts on whether it's biblical for a man to have long hair.



And the point? You may be contradicting yourself here brother. You must be very careful again to how you may wish to characterize what goes on in this setting. There is endless misunderstandings that are bore out of presuming. Conduct is also important, [i]how[/i] we go about things. Have you read the disclaimer? Dodging questions asked of you elsewhere and then turning away to another thread to carry on a perceived matter because you don't like the reasoning or the way it is going ... Look I don't know your real reasoning here but I did ask you to slow down and try and consider some things. By your own admission the very things you stated are the ones that will get you into trouble here, you know what they are.

Quote:
But I am utterly bitter about the state of affairs in the churches that left a poor bastard like me out in the cold for so long. I'm bitter because I had to wrestle with my Bible alone and be converted by the spoken, believed, words of a dead man. And I'm especially bitter because these very same churches who left me to fend for myself and cannot agree on a thing - not a thing - have a fit when an outsider like me, who's read the Bible without the benefit (or maybe it is a benefit) of an official church doctrine, dares to ask a question.



Ron (InTheLight) already drew attention to this but I would go further and ask that you reconsider what you are stating by this. Earlier you were not merely asking questions but positing [i]statements[/i] and those were challenged, that they were is not a personal effrontery to you, it is part and parcel of what everyone is accountable to here as this is a place for [i]discussion[/i]. Just as well you are drawing a presupposition and are in danger of being prideful if you want to hold to a 'me and my Bible' and then turn around and accuse everyone else of fault for doing the same.

This may sound worse than it is intended and I would rather risk addressing it all up front before it gets out of hand. You have a zeal but I wonder if you are really interested in learning or just positing? Even the heading of this post raises the question. You have admitted to being bitter already and the question is put in such a way that it lends to the same by your comments. Brother, there is so much here to weigh and consider, to chew on for awhile, to process ... please do not assume things and please, if you want to discuss matters learn to slow down and hold your peace, give place to others, recognize your surroundings, realize that there are many coming here to be fed besides yourself. The best question any of us can continually ask ourself is;

Could I be wrong here?

Believe me, if you can allow it you will learn far much more in a much better fashion.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/5/15 23:45Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Quote:
On the one hand I'm told we're not under the old law. On the other I witness (and participate in) a thread containing over 50 posts on whether it's biblical for a man to have long hair.



And the point? You may be contradicting yourself here brother. You must be very careful again to how you may wish to characterize what goes on in this setting. There is endless misunderstandings that are bore out of presuming. Conduct is also important, how we go about things. Have you read the disclaimer? Dodging questions asked of you elsewhere and then turning away to another thread to carry on a perceived matter because you don't like the reasoning or the way it is going ... Look I don't know your real reasoning here but I did ask you to slow down and try and consider some things. By your own admission the very things you stated are the ones that will get you into trouble here, you know what they are.



My point about the 50 "hair" thread postings is that I feel it's a form of phariseeism, or "straining at knats". That was my point all along.

I didn't "dodge" the questions - one of the posters requested I move it to another thread. You'll find it earlier on that thread.

Quote:
Quote:
But I am utterly bitter about the state of affairs in the churches that left a poor bastard like me out in the cold for so long. I'm bitter because I had to wrestle with my Bible alone and be converted by the spoken, believed, words of a dead man. And I'm especially bitter because these very same churches who left me to fend for myself and cannot agree on a thing - not a thing - have a fit when an outsider like me, who's read the Bible without the benefit (or maybe it is a benefit) of an official church doctrine, dares to ask a question.



Ron (InTheLight) already drew attention to this but I would go further and ask that you reconsider what you are stating by this. Earlier you were not merely asking questions but positing statements and those were challenged, that they were is not a personal effrontery to you, it is part and parcel of what everyone is accountable to here as this is a place for discussion. Just as well you are drawing a presupposition and are in danger of being prideful if you want to hold to a 'me and my Bible' and then turn around and accuse everyone else of fault for doing the same.



Point taken. I posit, however, that if I make a point and someone makes a counterpoint - game on.

As to reconsidering what I stated, I have. Many times. The churches I've encountered are dismal, spiritless places.

Quote:
This may sound worse than it is intended and I would rather risk addressing it all up front before it gets out of hand. You have a zeal but I wonder if you are really interested in learning or just positing? Even the heading of this post raises the question. You have admitted to being bitter already and the question is put in such a way that it lends to the same by your comments. Brother, there is so much here to weigh and consider, to chew on for awhile, to process ... please do not assume things and please, if you want to discuss matters learn to slow down and hold your peace, give place to others, recognize your surroundings, realize that there are many coming here to be fed besides yourself. The best question any of us can continually ask ourself is;

Could I be wrong here?

Believe me, if you can allow it you will learn far much more in a much better fashion.



"Could I be wrong?" Sure I could be. So could you. So could the Armenians, the Calvanists... the list goes on. What a sad state of affairs that no one knows for sure.

This is truly alarming.

You're right about your last point. My conversion would go a heck of a lot easier if I just smiled, nodded, and agreed with what everyone told me.

 2007/5/16 1:48









 Re:

crsschk,

You're right. I have been argumentative. I apologize to you and all here.

 2007/5/16 2:20
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

You said it is a sad state of affairs that nobody knows for sure what's right.

And you mention the Calvinist/Arminian debate as one of the things. It's sad (to me) that true-hearted brethren have been in the wrestling ring with this one for centuries, and still no one has come up the winner.

Maybe there's a message in that. It was said of Watchman Nee that whenever he met a man, he always looked for his limp. (Referring to Jacob after he had wrestled with the Angel, and the Angel touched him, crippled him, in the thigh, the place of his great strength.) I think maybe God is after something like that in us more than He is after people who have got it all figured out.

He's wants to touch us in the place of our strength, too. And then, limping, it is easier to walk with the Truth. Maybe we don't know as much, haven't got it all figured out, but we walk in Truth.

AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2007/5/16 2:50Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

brother Corey, i can identify with much of your thinking, here is an article a brother posted a wile back...


i find it just wonderful :-) maybe you read it already???


'I was preparing to go to Nyack College. Before I left there was one burning question I had in mind, and I went to Dr. Tozer and said, “Could you give me some advice concerning the problem of Calvinism versus Arminianism?”
And I’ll never forget the advice he gave me. At the time I thought it was rather inconclusive and not too helpful. But I listened carefully. He said, [b]“My son, when you get to college you’re going to find that all of the boys will be gathered in a room discussing and arguing over Arminianism and Calvinism night after night after night.[/b] I’ll tell you what to do, Cliff. Go to your room and meet God. At the end of four years you’ll be way down the line and they’ll still be where they started, because greater minds than yours have wrestled with this problem and have not come up with satisfactory conclusions. [b]Instead, learn to know God.”'[/b]

-Cliff Westergren





_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/5/16 3:47Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Yes, I am a new believer. And, no, I'm not playing games. I'm in this for my soul.


OK, then I'm in it for your soul too. :-)

Thank you too for the mini-bio that puts your question into a useful context.

I may be repeating what others have said subsequent to this reply of yours to my question, but your question is perfectly valid and deserves a reasoned answer. I think we have your answers in John's record.“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, [b]he will guide you into [u]all[/u] truth[/b]: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and [b]he will shew you things to come[/b].” (John 16:13 KJVS)This was the specific promise of Jesus to his apostles. Although Christians have a share in this promise it is strictly a promise to those whom he had commissioned to be his delegated representatives.

The promise to the apostles, as seen here, is twofold;

a) he shall lead you into all truth
b) he will show you things to come

In John 20:22 we have a unique record of Jesus commissioning these same apostles and breathing upon them and saying 'Receive now the Holy Spirit'. The context of this resurrection appearance can be found in Luke's gospel; it is the gathering with his apostles in the upper room. When Luke recounts this resurrection appearance he has nothing to say about 'receiving the Spirit' but he does give the context in greater detail;“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,” (Luke 24:44-45 KJVS)Apparently the occasion of his 'opening their understanding' and 'breathing upon them' are synchronised here. My own conviction is that this is a key event in understanding the nature of the Bible. The Spirit, in this encounter, empowered them to understand the entire Old Testament; that is the significance of the phrase "law of Moses, prophets and psalms, it was the threefold division of the Hebrew scriptures.

These men then become the living link between Christ and the generations that never saw him in the flesh. We can see this in the way in which he prayed;“Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;” (John 17:17-20 KJVS)We should note the two groups of people that Christ says he is praying for here;

a) his apostles.
b) those who would become believers as a result of the testimony of his apostles.

The apostles were uniquely commissioned and ultimately empowered to be the living continuance of the word and ministry of Christ; not in his saving death and life but in terms of authority. The question we are dealing with here is just that; the nature of spiritual authority. Christ delegated his personal authority to his apostles..This issue of authority is what divided the Catholics from the Protestants; the ultimate authority, the Church or the Book? The Catholics have a good point when they see authority as residing in particular men rather than in a book... whoa, wait for it... but they have no justification in claiming that that authority could be passed on by the imposition of hands in 'ordination'.

You will be thinking 'but where does Paul come in?' Paul was commissioned as an apostle-extraordinary by Christ, and takes his place as a fully recognised 'apostle' of Christ. In this sense we may regard him as 'taking the place of Judas.(Acts 1:20) (I am not disputing the role of Matthias here as one of the twelve) In the sense that the apostles of Christ carried unique authority personally given by Christ; this was always Paul's claim. Paul's 'scripture writing' authority is recognised by Peter...“and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.” (2Peter 3:15-16 NKJV)I have quoted from the NKJV here because it brings out well the conviction of Peter that Paul's writings, all of them, were a full part of Peter's personal canon of scripture. For Peter the written epistles of Paul were of equal inspiration as the Law of Moses or those words of Jesus in 'red'.

You will see that what is known as the canon of scripture is building here. Up to this point in our explanation we have;

a) The Old Testament, personally endorsed by Christ
b) The accounts of Matthew, Mark (Peter was the eyewitness behind this record) and John
c) The epistles of John and the Revelation
d) The epistles of Peter and consequently...
e) The epistles of Paul.

Luke was a travelling companion to Paul and, in a sense, the true historian of the 'beginnings', so we can add...
f) Luke and the Acts

That leaves only Jude and Hebrews. These two books were early recognised by Christians as having the same kind of inspiration as the rest of the New Testament and included in the canon.

So in summary, why should we believe everything later than the gospels and why should we incorporate it into our system of divine authority? Because Jesus made it plain that there was 'more to come' and that his apostles would be the guardians of that additional revelation. This is why I believe the testimony of the 'rest of scripture' in the New Testament... because that Jesus, in whom I put all my trust, tells me I ought to.

This is the nature of scriptue 'inspiration', now how Christians have 'interpreted' those holy scriptures is another matter... :-)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/16 4:03Profile





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