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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
Loosing our salvation makes God a looser and not able to keep that which He has birthed as son's.

No, it makes God have more Justice.

When we forfit our right to ba called sons of God(John 1:12) we no longer have faith and it is only through faith that we aer saved by grace.

We no longer know the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom He hast sent(John 17:3)

And to put the burden on a father that has a son the fell away is cruel.
Once the sone goes on his own, he is no longer under his father. As for the man stray from the faith, he is no longer under the Father.

Quote:
Christinyou wrote
Much more it makes the Cross conditional to man's sin...

No, The cross is for all the world saved and unsaved. The work of Christ on His cross [b]makes away for[/b] salvation of the world, while the salvation it's self comes from the relationship one has with Him and not just in what he did on the cross.

Quote:
Christinyou wrote
the Cross was so important to Him and us who are saved by it.

The world was forgiven through the cross which makes away to be saved by a relationship with Him.

Quote:
Christinyou wrote
God won't abort any of His children. Why would a child of God want to walk away from love himself,

Because bad doctrine curupts the soul.
When there is enough bad doctrine that messes with the Godhead and the way of salvation, what do you think?

Quote:
Christinyou wrote
Eternal Security is not up to us.

You think that because you don't think that we have a say in our own choice for salvation.

Quote:
Christinyou wrote
When God planned before the foundation of the world to have son's that are in Christ Jesus, he did not ask if the son's wanted to be born again.


Noy then, but He did ask men if they wanted to be saved before they accepted hHis offer or rejuected it.
As my example before:
I know my wife would choose "Red Lobster" over another restaurant if it was in the choice.
I would plan on taking her there and make reservations before she made the choice.
I didn't ask my wife before I planed, but I did ask her.

Quote:
Christinyou wrote
Salvation is up to God not man or He would not have had to kill His only begotten Son to accomplish the act.

True, but it is up to us to take the offer or reject it.

Quote:
Christinyou wrote
God has made sure man cannot do anything to be a son of God.

Then why do we preach?
Why does He plead?
Furthermore, If God Has 101% "say so" in everything.
Why did He let Adam sin?

Quote:
Christinyou wrote
It is up to Him. All we can do is believe what God has done.

According to Calvinism, we can not believe, it is God who does it for us.

Quote:
Christinyou wrote
God never makes a mistake

AMEN!!!
but we do, and still do. He doesn't stop us if we keep persisting and beliving damnable heiries(2Peter 2:1)

 2007/5/29 22:16Profile









 Re:

Give me one verse in the bible that says we can loose our salvation.

 2007/5/29 22:25
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
chiefosiners wrote:
Give me one verse in the bible that says we can loose our salvation.

What, don't my reasoning in the scipture persuade you? Or do you not hold to sound wisdom.

[b]2Peter 3:16[/b] [color=990000]as also in all his epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the unlearned and unsettled pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
[b]:17[/b] Then beloved, you knowing beforehand, watch lest being led away by the error of the lawless you fall from your own steadfastne[/color]

And

[b]2Peter 2:1[/b] [color=990000]But false prophets were also among the people, as also false teachers will be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, and [b]denying the Master who has bought[/b] them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.[/color]

 2007/5/30 9:21Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4584


 Re:

Hello...

I think that a much more appropriate set of questions are:

Can a person who walks with God ever depart the faith?

If a person can depart the faith, what is the end of that person?

:-(

Some individuals believe that it is impossible for a true believer to ever "depart the faith." I believe that it is very much possible and very much a part of the Church. We are each being tempted daily to abandon our faith in Christ. What would happen if we were to give in to temptation and return to a life our vomit -- preferring a life of "vomit" above our relationship with Christ? I know several individuals who have done so. They are living in a sad state of being -- miserable in their sins and miserable at the height from which they have fallen. Most of all, they are miserable about the loss of the relationship that they had with Christ.

Sadly, I also know a couple of individuals who go about boasting of their salvation -- yet are willfully involved in gross fornicative lifestyles. Yet someone had the audacity to tell they that they are still "on their way to heaven." I fear for those individuals concerning their "day in court."

Verses to chew on:

Quote:

[size=xx-small][b]Hebrews 10:26-30[/b]

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

[b]2 John 1:8-9[/b]

8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

[b]Romans 11:22-23[/b]

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

[b]I Corinthians 11:11-22[/b]

11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.

16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?

20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?[/size]

I think that the key to this topic is found in I Corinthians 11:12-13. When you are faced with temptation, what do you do? Do you resist it? Do you give in the the "escape" that the Lord provides? Or do you give up all resistance and partake into the lifestyle -- forsaking all that you hold dear from Christ? I know individuals who believe that it is possible to live a life of sin while still walking with Christ. We cannot hold both cups! While we will always be confined to a sinful body, we do not give in completely to our sinful nature. Those who do -- loving this present world OVER the life of Christ enough to have forsaken all that they have gained -- are in danger of "falling away."

If a person comes to Christ, walks with Him for years, even leading others to Him, yet sins -- I feel that God's grace is present to call this man back unto Christ. But what if this person IGNORES the call? What if a person is so entrapped in sin that they literally abandon the faith? What is the end for such a person?

Perhaps we need to distinguish between someone trapped in a sin but hating it while trying to overcome -- and those who willingly choose to live within the temptation?

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2007/5/30 9:42Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hello...

I think that a much more appropriate set of questions are:

Can a person who walks with God ever depart the faith?

If a person can depart the faith, what is the end of that person?


The OSAS crown think that we are talking about how much a person sinns will stop Jesus from covering tose sins.
However, it isn't the sins, but the bad doctrine than warps there understanding of the way of salvation and of who the Godhead is.

Say, one gets saved truly and all he has is TBN.
Knowing their doctin, how long will that one stay on the narrow path before he is so far off that he is in the cult of Kenneth Copland.

 2007/5/30 11:45Profile









 Re:

I love when this topic comes up and turns into a meeting of two minds.

I don't believe in UNconditional eternal security, as it's taught by some ... but the neat thing is that ... "the elect" will not lose their Salvation.

This is neat ~ Who are the elect ?

Those who GOD Foreknew from before the beginning - so to speak - that wouldn't 'fall away'.

He knows those which are His and who will "endure unto the end."

Whenever you see Him speak of the Elect in The Word - you find them "not being deceived" and in the verses where that title for them is mentioned, they are nothing but 'overcomers'.

There are tons of verses, like the parables of the sower and ground types and so on, that tell of those who make a profession of faith but as Charles Stanley said yesterday .... even believing in Christ, etc. does not make one "saved".

If you look in the N.T. Concordance under verses with "if you" alone, there are many-many "if's".

Our only difference in these two ways of thinking is that those who hold to OSAS say - that if a person has no sign of fruit or holiness
"they were never saved in the first place" and us others say .... they presently cannot be saved by their lifestyles ... but that's where we can agree .... that they "presently" are not saved.

Why argue if both argree on that ?

My background was non-calvin and I still feel that way, but I attend a PCA Church now.
Isn't that great ?!

I used to debate on an apologetic forum years ago over OSAS, Predestination, Baptism, the Spirit Baptism .... but now I'm in a Church that believes everything I debated against.
Why ? Not because I've changed my views, but because the Lord had to do some mechanical work on my close mindedness.

These folks are the real-McCoy and the Holy Spirit works and speaks through them. Huge Missions programs too. Much more active in the Community and around the country being servants to those in need, etc..

They know I believe in Foreknowledge and not Predestination and whatever else I don't hold to that they do, but they could care less and neither do I.
Most all of our Classic Authors we love so much believed Reformed Theology or Calvinism and I love those Authors best, but with that one point - God's foreknowledge of who the Elect are. He Knows those that are His - those who will remain faithful even unto the end.

 2007/5/30 12:05
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

This seems to fit with the discussion here, enjoy as this is the marrow of what we are getting at.

[i]The bent of the needle

(Thomas Brooks, "London's Lamentations" 1670)

"No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one
who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him." 1 John 3:6

A trade, a course of sin--is inconsistent with a state of grace. The best saints have sadly miscarried as to particular actions; but he who shall judge of a man's spiritual state by particular acts, though notorious bad, will certainly condemn, where God acquits. We must always distinguish between some single evil actions, and a serious course of evil actions. It is not this or that particular evil action--but a continued course of evil actions--which denominates a man wicked. Just so, it is not this or that particular holy act--but a continued course of holy actions--which denominates a man holy.

[b]Every man is--as his course is. If his course is holy--the man is holy. If his course is wicked--the man is wicked.

No man ought to conclude, because of some particular good actions--that his spiritual state is good.

No man ought to conclude, because of some particular sinful actions--that his spiritual state is bad.[/b]

A course of sinning is not consistent with a course of godliness. Though the needle of the seaman's compass may jog this way and that way--yet the bent of the needle will still be northward. Just so, though a Christian
may have his particular sinful joggings this way or that way--yet the bent of his heart will still be . . .
God-wards,
Christ-wards,
heaven-wards,
holiness-wards. [/i]




_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/5/30 12:17Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:

lightwalker wrote:
Can you lose your salvation? Or do you have to walk away? One man's opinion



God's love is a MORAL love and a conditional love. "Relationship love" is NOT unconditional!
Many have taught that the love of God is an "unconditional" love in relationships: That we are to "love" those who have violated us without seeking justice or protection from that violation. "Unconditional love" as currently taught by the church imprisons people in bad marriages.

By: Stephen Gola

By Stephen Gola - Excerpt from the article on Love.
Word Picture:

God is love (1John 4:8), God is moral, God is just, and God does only righteous acts.

Love Himself sits upon a throne of authority.

His throne is positioned upon a foundation built of justice and righteousness.

This is WHO love is! He cannot vary in any way from being just, true and doing what is righteous.

This is WHY God cannot just "let things go—sweep them under the proverbial rug"—it is a legal thing. Because He is love, He is moral. Because He is moral, He is just. Because He is just, He always does righteous acts. Because this is who He is and we are made in His image, He gives us these same moral obligations through His commandments to guide our lives. This is the basis of a great relationship: whether that relationship is between man and man or God and man.

God loves everyone—sinner and saint alike! God who is Love: "demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). Even though God is love, He is just, righteous and true. Because He is just, righteous and true, it becomes a legal matter which demands a right response. If we do not respond to God's legal demands of justice we will not be legally "justified by His blood... (and)...saved from wrath..." (Romans 5:9). Therefore, we will endure the punishment of wrath because we have rejected righteousness, justice and truth.

Because God is love, He requires people to love, to be just, moral and true. Those who order their lives in the realm of hate, injustice, immorality with deceptions and lies will reap the penalty (or fruit) thereof. Those who order their lives in the realm of love, justice, morality and truth will reap the blessings (or fruit) thereof. Everybody is treated fairly—you reap exactly what you sow—no more, no less! Living a "holy" life is living out love, justice, righteousness and truth, simultaneously. This is what the Scriptures mean in 1 Peter 1:14-16: Be "as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts (strong pressures of the flesh)...but... be holy for I am holy."

Love without morals is to live under tyranny—which is an abuse of authority.

Love has boundaries, love has morals, and love is conditional!

All Rights Reserved, © Copyright 2006 by Stephen Gola

(All Scriptures taken from the King James Version Bible or the New King James version.)

******ALL TEACHINGS MAY BE USED WITHOUT PERMISSION TO TEACH AND TRAIN GOD'S PEOPLE. PLEASE KEEP THE COPYRIGHT INTACT.******



This is why I can love my ex-husband enough to pray for him, and his current wife, but I could not overlook the continung verbal abuse from his anger over my crippling accident, his subsequent desertion and adultery.

If he had repented while my other kinds of love were still active towards him, I might, and I say might, have been able to continue those types of love, but I would have needed a lot of repentance, change of behavior, and it would take a lot of time to re-establish trust.

God can tell if we mean something in our hearts, and still He asks for obedience as proof of our love. God still wants the fruits of the spirit to be made plain to Him. He doesn't want works, He wants proof of love.

God believed Abraham loved Him, but still God wanted the proof of Him giving up Isaac in full trust in Him to still make Abraham the father of nations through Isaac.

Works are always done for our own sake and pleasure. Obedience is done only to please God, not because it is our first desire. The longer we love God, the more this obedience is ingrained in us, and a habit, which is why God then sends very nasty trials to test if that love is still inviolate, still passionate towards Him. And if we are not loving enough to please Him, He has the Holy Spirit convict us of that lapse, that we might redouble our efforts to love Him on purpose, in agape, phileo, storge, and eros.

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/30 13:17Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved???

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Eternal Security is not up to us. Just like a baby being born is not up to the baby. When God planned before the foundation of the world to have son's that are in Christ Jesus, he did not ask if the son's wanted to be born again. His birthing of His only begotten son in Mary was His choice not hers, all she did was agree with God. I think that is enough, if the Holy Spirit appeared to us and said God is going to birth the Incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ His Son in you all we can do is agree...Before by new birth the Holy Spirit was with me, and now He is In me. The all in all is now nature and all I want is to know Him and to be pleasing to Him by the birthing of His Son in me.

In God, In Christ, In the Holy Spirit and They in me: Phillip




My dear brother, I fully ackowledge our eternal debt to God for sending us Jesus.

But Jesus Himself asks for obedience...as a proof of love, not as works, nor to do works for works sake.

If all we do is fasten our eyes on Christ, and love Him in obedience, that is all we need do.

I am merely saying that some choose not to obey, and literally stop on the path to glory, turn around, refuse to obey for a long enough time that God want's a divorce, not because He does not love us, but because that person did not love Him back, nor show it in any way.

[color=993300] Phillipians 2:5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15. That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;


1 Peter 1: 5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8. Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9. Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
[/color]

Our salvation is a forever done thing if, and only if, we believe, and keep on believing.

In the scriptures it allows for our perpetual safety only if we set out faces like flint toward the Lord, and act on it.

The Once Saved, Always Saved position says we do not have to do anything past our initial committment, and indeed, are covered against all that we do in our body, mind and spirit.

I say that if our body does one thing, out of it's sin nature, while our mind, heart, soul and spirit still reach out for God, we are saved forever.

I also say if we stop reaching out for God, our mind, heart, soul and spirit will stop on the path to holiness, turn around, and join the body again, going back to death away from the Life of Jesus.

The Once Saved, Always Saved position promotes a belief that our soul is forever safe, even if we turn around, and walk away from Christ to the point where God can no longer handle it, and turns us over to our desires and our self, instead of His Self and His Desires. And this is why I am against this position being taught.

Blessings,

Forrest



_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/30 13:48Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved???

Quote:

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hello...

I think that a much more appropriate set of questions are:

Can a person who walks with God ever depart the faith?

If a person can depart the faith, what is the end of that person?

:-(

Some individuals believe that it is impossible for a true believer to ever "depart the faith." I believe that it is very much possible and very much a part of the Church. We are each being tempted daily to abandon our faith in Christ. What would happen if we were to give in to temptation and return to a life our vomit -- preferring a life of "vomit" above our relationship with Christ? I know several individuals who have done so. They are living in a sad state of being -- miserable in their sins and miserable at the height from which they have fallen. Most of all, they are miserable about the loss of the relationship that they had with Christ.

Sadly, I also know a couple of individuals who go about boasting of their salvation -- yet are willfully involved in gross fornicative lifestyles. Yet someone had the audacity to tell they that they are still "on their way to heaven." I fear for those individuals concerning their "day in court."....I think that the key to this topic is found in I Corinthians 11:12-13. When you are faced with temptation, what do you do? Do you resist it? Do you give in the the "escape" that the Lord provides? Or do you give up all resistance and partake into the lifestyle -- forsaking all that you hold dear from Christ? I know individuals who believe that it is possible to live a life of sin while still walking with Christ. We cannot hold both cups! While we will always be confined to a sinful body, we do not give in completely to our sinful nature. Those who do -- loving this present world OVER the life of Christ enough to have forsaken all that they have gained -- are in danger of "falling away."

If a person comes to Christ, walks with Him for years, even leading others to Him, yet sins -- I feel that God's grace is present to call this man back unto Christ. But what if this person IGNORES the call? What if a person is so entrapped in sin that they literally abandon the faith? What is the end for such a person?

Perhaps we need to distinguish between someone trapped in a sin but hating it while trying to overcome -- and those who willingly choose to live within the temptation?

:-(



Now you know why I worry, not for myself, nor for those on SI, who are so plainly ever-seeking, but those babes in Christ that are taught wrongly, and believe they are still safe if they desert God.

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/30 13:55Profile





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