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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

dear grannieannie,

nice.. thanks for posting all that stuff. it was cool to see all the different viewpoints of that verse. i think that it is a good verse for this discussion.. in fact, it's a really good passage (v18-21).

 2007/7/11 17:37Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: Me, Obedience come by the Christ that is in us. Who was, is, and will be the only One that was and is obedient? So how are we obedient? Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Phillip

Quote: Ormly

In light of your post please handle this verse, Phillip: "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth ......" 1 Peter 1:22 (KJV)





1 Peter 1:18-24 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

You cannot purchase it with silver or gold.
You cannot be redeemed with any corruptible thing. We are corrupted from Adam. No vain conversation can redeem us either. We can only be redeemed, "with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot".
"Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

We only believe in God because of Christ, by God who raised Him up from the dead. This so we could have faith and hope and that might be in God through Christ Jesus.

:22 "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God,"

Again the Word of God is Christ Himself.

Word: Strong's Greek Dictionary
3056. logos
Search for G3056 in KJVSL
logoV logos log'-os
from 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):-

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

This is what we are born again by. The Word Himself.

1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

We have purified our souls because we obey the truth, not through ourselves in obedience, but "through the Spirit". This is where our obedience comes from, not self. 1 Peter 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

Nothing man can, will or does, has anything to do with our obedience. It is of the Spirit and of the Spirit of Christ that is in us.

1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Knowing we obey by the power of God is the most liberating understanding of the preciousness of Christ and the Cross that man can acquire in His reign with Christ. We can then truly enter His Rest that He has provided and swear that we would if we believe this capacity is of God in Christ Jesus.

Psa 95:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Hbr 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

Hbr 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief

This is our labor, entering that rest. Or we fall from that rest and in our life in Christ it has the same effect of unbelief. This is not loosing our Salvation, for our Salvation is not of ourselves in the first place.

In Christ forever and learning to enter that rest; Which is in Christ Jesus our Lord, the only hope of Glory.

In Him: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/7/11 21:18Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3350
Texas

 Re:

I really think the Mods are trying to let this thread make on to Ripley's Believe it or not :-P
What is this I lost count Round 6? :-)


_________________
Bill

 2007/7/11 21:30Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

""in him that is true, even (or and) in his Son Jesus Christ, 1Jo_5:20. The Son leads us to the Father, and we are in both, in the love and favour of both, in covenant and federal alliance with both, in spiritual conjunction with both by the inhabitation and operation of their Spirit: and, that you may know how great a dignity and felicity this is, you must remember that this true one is the true God and eternal life” or rather (as it should seem a more natural construction), “This same Son of God is himself also the true God and eternal life” (Joh_1:1, and here, 1Jo_1:2), “so that in union with either, much more with both, we are united to the true God and eternal life.” Then we have,
II. The apostle's concluding monition: “Little children” (dear children, as it has been interpreted), “keep yourselves from idols, 1Jo_5:21. Since you know the true God, and are in him, let your light and love guard you against all that is advanced in opposition to him, or competition with him. Flee from the false gods of the heathen world. They are not comparable to the God whose you are and whom you serve. Adore not your God by statues and images, which share in his worship. Your God is an incomprehensible Spirit, and is disgraced by such sordid representations. Hold no communion with your heathen neighbours in their idolatrous worship. Your God is jealous, and He would have you come out, and be separated from among them; (by Him) mortify the flesh, and be crucified to the world, that they may not usurp the throne of dominion in the +(your)+ heart, which is due only to God. The God whom you have known is he who made you, who redeemed you by his Son, who has sent his gospel to you, who has pardoned your sins, begotten you unto himself by his Spirit, and given you eternal life. +(By Him)+ Cleave to him in faith, and love, and constant obedience, in opposition to all things that would alienate your mind and heart from God. To this living and true God be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”""

I love this by Mathew Henry, I have His expanded volume of commentary, It takes up many shelves in the book shelve, but it is worth it.

I hope Mathew would not get upset that I added,
+ (By Him) + and + (your) + to his commentary.

In Christ: Phillip




_________________
Phillip

 2007/7/11 22:04Profile
JesusIsMyLrd
Member



Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 119
Iowa, USA

 Re: God help us!

IRONMAN said,

Quote:
Someone said that God doesn't force us, tell that to Jonah...tell Pharoah that, tell Paul that when he was on the Damascus road and was blinded that God was not backing him into a corner to make him cry uncle and submit to God. God doesn't force? i think that view indicts us that we have a shallow view of God; because that is the way we would be if we were God because we think that's what people would like. Saints we are Blood Bought and are Slaves to GOd, we are do to as He says. Christ did indeed Save us from bondage to sin and now we are in Bondage to Him. We are indeed Sons of God, but tell me what Son doesn't work for his father with all diligence and obedience. Before the rewards are passed out, there is much work to be done yet.



Brother, i was the one that said that. And i will stand on that point firmly. God will not force us into His will. If He did, then all men would be saved, for it is His will that all should come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved. Just as you can lead a horse to water, you can't make it gulp it down. It is the same with the accounts you mentioned. God brought exraordinary circumstances into thier way, to try to convince them of the error of their way. But they COULD HAVE still rejected it. That would then have resulted in sin, and, the last time i checked, God didn't force me to obey Him when i was faced with a temptation. i had a free will, and though i am a servant of God, just like you said (Which i so appreciate the way you put that), the servant is either motivated by love or fear for his master, and yet still has a free will. One reason for us abiding in CHrist is that our will be given up to Him. But, all that said, i do see what you mean by God backing us into a corner. It would be very convincing to have the glory of God shine about one!! Do it in our hearts Lord! i guess i would just caution that we don't go far in either way. i may be to far on the free will side, and you may be too far on the ordination by God side... i pray God gives us wisdom and grace to come eye to eye! i am blessed by your post, brother!!

God can do anything, but that includes doing things the way He made them. i don't veiw the opinion about God not forcing us as a low view of God. Rather, i see it plainly in God's word. And once i see that God has given us a free will to do as we choose, i see that i now must choose Christ. Now, are we helplessly lost in sin and have no hope of getting out of its grasp without Christ? Absolutely. And yet we see this promise that Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up, will draw ALL men unto Myself..." Since he has been lifted up, all men will have the chance to hear, and to choose to accept His victory, or reject it. If we cannot choose, then the account in Genesis about Adam and Eve holds little meaning, it seems to me anyways.

Remember, there's a reason for all those scriptures... ;-)

We have the choice... Let's serve Him, by and in His grace. And Lord, back us into that corner!!!

Thanks to many for being polite on this thread. It's a blessing to get sharpened!! ;-)


Jesus bless you all,
-nathan


_________________
Nathan

 2007/7/11 23:12Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Nathan

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

well i would have gone back to find your name bro, however that must have been 10 pages back now! :-P

all the same bro i must say that according to Romans 9 and others of Paul's writings, we are Called to Salvation from before the setting of the Foundations of the Earth. We had no choice in that. That is what Divine Election is, God's Prerogative to Save as He will, whomever He will. what we perceive to be free will doesn't overrule God's Sovereign WIll, in fact our will is wrapped up in His own. See Romans chapter 9.

Quote:
Brother, i was the one that said that. And i will stand on that point firmly. God will not force us into His will. If He did, then all men would be saved, for it is His will that all should come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved.



not at all, in fact quite the contrary, according to Romans 9 there are those vessels which are made for Honour and those for Wrath according to His Choosing. there is a place in which (Peter i believe) says He would that all men be saved, but this is not the whole world but rather all those He has Elected to Salvation. Our being Saved is dependant solely on Him which is why Paul said that it is not about he that wills or runs but rather about Him who shows Mercy.

Quote:
God brought exraordinary circumstances into thier way, to try to convince them of the error of their way. But they COULD HAVE still rejected it. That would then have resulted in sin, and, the last time i checked, God didn't force me to obey Him when i was faced with a temptation. i had a free will, and though i am a servant of God, just like you said (Which i so appreciate the way you put that), the servant is either motivated by love or fear for his master, and yet still has a free will.



but Jonah was already in sin, and so was Paul and had God not intervened as He did, neither one of them would have of their own accord chosen to do what is right and this highlights the depserate depravity of man and his correspondingly depserate need for God and Salvation. We are to be motivated by Love and Fear for God not just 1 without the other because what results is a warped view of God; either God becomes a teddy bear or is seen as bitter and vengful. we must realize the Love and Mercy of God but also His Severity in Judgment.

Quote:
But, all that said, i do see what you mean by God backing us into a corner.



see that to me is being forced. of course not forced in a bad way but in a most Blessed way because outside of that, there would be no impetus to do right. think about it, if God has to press us, He has determined that is the best thing to do and the only way to get us to do right else it would have been done otherwise. God does what is best in every situation.

Quote:
i guess i would just caution that we don't go far in either way. i may be to far on the free will side, and you may be too far on the ordination by God side... i pray God gives us wisdom and grace to come eye to eye! i am blessed by your post, brother!!



indeed both aspects are valid, our free will is wrapped up in His Sovereign Will. The 2 are one because they both work toward one Goal, in fact the only Goal which has any significance, the Glory of God Forever and Ever. AMEN. did i mention Romans 9? ;-) :-P

Quote:
God can do anything, but that includes doing things the way He made them. i don't veiw the opinion about God not forcing us as a low view of God. Rather, i see it plainly in God's word. And once i see that God has given us a free will to do as we choose, i see that i now must choose Christ. Now, are we helplessly lost in sin and have no hope of getting out of its grasp without Christ? Absolutely. And yet we see this promise that Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up, will draw ALL men unto Myself..." Since he has been lifted up, all men will have the chance to hear, and to choose to accept His victory, or reject it. If we cannot choose, then the account in Genesis about Adam and Eve holds little meaning, it seems to me anyways.



i don't think the idea of free will constitutes a low view of God but a warped one unless one takes into account the Sovereignty of God. Nothing happens outside of His Will. Yes indeed we are lost in sin and the word says that when Christ is lifted up He will draw men to Him but in John 6:65 Christ says that nobody can come to Him except the Father draws him...you see once more the very Grace and ability needed for us to come to Christ must itself proceed from the Throne of God because we can't muster up what it takes to do so. You see the matter of Salvation is not about us, it has to do with the Issue of Issues, the only Issue which has Eternal Significance, the Glory of God Forever and Ever through the display of His Manifold Wisdom to the powers of the air through the Church.

Now about the account of Adam and Eve, to me God's Sovereignty in this matter (and all matters) doesn't diminish the meaning of the account, in fact it completes it. Jesus Christ was slain from the foundations of the earth (according to the Revelation) and this is before Adam and Eve were created. to me this says that when the thought came to God to create, He had already prepared for the Redemption of Creation. i don't know about you but that blesses me so!

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/7/12 0:48Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Did your father consult with you, if you wanted to be born, when he and your mother decided to have you.

God is the same way, He does not have to consult the child. All He asks is you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God when you are born.

Same with mom and dad, do you believe they are your mom and dad?

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/7/12 1:23Profile









 Re:

Quote:

JesusIsMyLrd wrote:
IRONMAN said,

Quote:
Someone said that God doesn't force us, tell that to Jonah...tell Pharoah that, tell Paul that when he was on the Damascus road and was blinded that God was not backing him into a corner to make him cry uncle and submit to God. God doesn't force? i think that view indicts us that we have a shallow view of God; because that is the way we would be if we were God because we think that's what people would like. Saints we are Blood Bought and are Slaves to GOd, we are do to as He says. Christ did indeed Save us from bondage to sin and now we are in Bondage to Him. We are indeed Sons of God, but tell me what Son doesn't work for his father with all diligence and obedience. Before the rewards are passed out, there is much work to be done yet.



Brother, i was the one that said that. And i will stand on that point firmly. God will not force us into His will.




Indeed, God will not go against man's will. It is not in His purpose to do so. Him doing so would not produce the desired results, i.e., love to Him. Love to Him allows His very Life; His Character to be expressed through that one whose will is submitted wholly unto Him ---- in love....

.....And this by the revelation of Jesus Christ made effective to our senses.

 2007/7/12 3:11









 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Quote: Me, Obedience come by the Christ that is in us. Who was, is, and will be the only One that was and is obedient? So how are we obedient? Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Phillip

Quote: Ormly

In light of your post please handle this verse, Phillip:

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth ......" 1 Peter 1:22 (KJV)



The Lord Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End; the First and the Last. We were in Him at the First and will be in Him at the Last.
Between the First and the Last we are in the world, to become [a son]. The First and the Last, He is responsible for that. The in-between is our responsibility. It is given to us to become as He was in His flesh. Without a vision of the last, we will not become that which is purposed by the Father. The vision of the Last is implanted in us from the first.
A revelation of the First, the Christ of Glory, brings the vision of the Last, our inheritance in the Father the vision that will sustain the in-between... which is now. The vision is the understanding of His Grace; the overflowing of His Nature to us who are begotten again, to be tutored to learn His Character; become as He is.


You have NOT addressed 1Pet1.22 above, Phillip.
Please do so.

 2007/7/12 3:17









 Re:

Ormly said:

Ormly, this is only *YOUR INTERPRETATION*, but it is not the Word of God!

Quote:
The Lord Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End; the First and the Last. We were in Him at the First and will be in Him at the Last.


Quote:
Between the First and the Last we are in the world, to become [a son]. The First and the Last, He is responsible for that. The in-between is our responsibility. It is given to us to become as He was in His flesh. Without a vision of the last, we will not become that which is purposed by the Father. The vision of the Last is implanted in us from the first

Quote:
A revelation of the First, the Christ of Glory, brings the vision of the Last, our inheritance in the Father the vision that will sustain the in-between... which is now. The vision is the understanding of His Grace; the overflowing of His Nature to us who are begotten again, to be tutored to learn His Character; become as He is.




Again what does God have to say about such things?

The JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH!!! Are you REALLY in the FAITH, or are you seeking knowledge without faith? We don't seek knowledge, God imparts the Knowledge of Himself to you. Jesus is imparting this wisdom and knowledge of who we ALREADY are In Christ.(Ephesians 3) He wants us to have our eyes OPENED to these things we ALREADY HAVE IN CHRIST.

There is a difference in what Ormly is saying and what Peter is saying. Saints, please ask the Lord to reveal the discpeption in Ormly's words compared to Peter's

Please OH Please read 2 Peter....for starters.

What does *God* have to say about making sure you are in the faith AND HIS. What was Peter talking about before and after he said these words? Why don't we get our answers from the very text itself.


2 Peter 1
1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to ****MAKING YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE,[b][color=CC0000]for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: [/color][/b]
11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

13Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

14Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

15Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


This chapter is a warning to those who are being drawn away with Gnosticism believing you have to **earn your way to SONSHIP* or try to kill sin within to purify yourselves( Hindu/New Agers/ perverted Penticostalism). This teaching has been around from the beginning of the Church Age. Nothing New under the sun. Peter is reminding us our sin is forgiven, and that Jesus Christ was there before the cross and a SON. We don't acheive Sonship.

Re-read it again with Peter's warnings at the end. It completely exposes those who are teaching this as we speak. But then again, they have their own intrepretations of scripture and have no ear to hear what God is saying to us.


Love in Christ
Katy-did

PS added: Peter clearly says in Chapter 3 verse 1 exactly WHY he wrote this letter and warning to the Church. The whole letter is a WARNING to believers that false teachers are among. He Clearly establishes you in Chapter 1.

Anyway, For those ONLY who are "In Christ and Christ In them" and read what God says, not mans interpretation.

 2007/7/12 6:27





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