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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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UniqueWebRev
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Joined: 2007/2/9
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Southern California

 Re:

Quote:

jimp wrote:
hi,at what point in the process does man become the center of his salvation? it confuses this old man when we preach salvation through the blood of Jesus applied by the Holy Spirit and then talk of being saved by our own abilities to maintain some form of perfection lest we loose this loan or gift.be sure your sins will find you out.many christians are in jail and in hospitals because of sins.this is sewing and reaping. butif Jesus is the savior then He alone can save and keep and glorify(when i see the blood i will passover you) He( the Father does not even look at you ,He looks at the blood of the Lamb...the jews at the first passover could have had egyptian first born in their houses and the blood would have saved them. we have esteemed ourselves to highly to think we can do anything that is more important than the blood of Christ that was shed for us.the tree adam ate was the tree of the knowlege of GOOD and evil only trusting in the finished work of the cross will save and keep and deliver and anything else is another gospel.jimp



Jimp, all I am saying is that you must believe, and go on believing, love and go on loving, or you break your end of the covenent that Jesus died to give us.

Those that believe in the Once Saved, Always Saved position are attempting to say that a one time decision for Christ cannot be unmade by future beliefs and actions.

And you are not old!

Blessings,

Forrest


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Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/28 1:45Profile
UniqueWebRev
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Joined: 2007/2/9
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Southern California

 Re:

Quote:

staff wrote:
Hi Again,
In regards to below this is again part of the myth about sin in the church and its affects.I am not claiming osas but that both sides of the debate have their merit and that "grace" knowing you are saved despite ongoing sin is an encouragement rather than you're veiw that grace is a license to sin.
The Holy Spirit is indwelt and it takes alot for that to change.The holy spirit can be grieved but not away.When Jesus died for me all my sins were in the future,he knew my sins before I did and still saved me.You can have unrighteousness and believe.
[color=000099]Sorry, Staff, you cannot deliberately keep on sinning without grieving away the Holy Spirit. Those that claim the OSAS doctrine want to be able to never trouble themselves as to their behavior, because they are always safe. But it is not true.[/color]
rgds staff



Staff, I am not talking about the normal, unable to keep sinning problem that we have as part of our human condition. That is covered by grace, or we would none of us be saved at all.

I am speaking about an assumption that Once Saved, Always Saved promotes, is the idea that a single decision cannot be undone by future actions of deliberate sin being done in the mistaken belief that the Holy Spirit will hang on forever.

He wants to, but under certain circumstances He can't.

I know the passage you speak of:

[color=993300]17. This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18. Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19. Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20. But ye have not so learned Christ;
21. If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27. Neither give place to the devil.
28. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32. And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.[/color]

Unfortunately, we can turn away from God, and end up grieving the Holy Spirit away, not because He wants to leave, but because of our actions:

[color=993300]16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30. Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31. Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.[/color]

One can take the devils's mark after taking grace from Christ, and you need not be in the Tribulation to fall that far. Alas, people are doing it even as we speak, starting out in the faith, then turning away from God.

No, the Holy Spirit will not leave us of His choice...but we can leave Him, and consequently force Him away.

Blessings,

Forrest


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Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/28 2:08Profile
UniqueWebRev
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 Re:

Quote:

Logic wrote:
Salvation is not a [b]thing[/b] that we must maintain, it is a relationsip!

Ech person in a marriage must [b]do[/b] there part to [b]maintain[/b] the relationsip.

If one member of a marriage moves awy from the other and never writes or calls or anything for that matter of marriage, the relationsip ends ond only become a peace of paper called a marriage license.
However, this is the merriage between God and man, that they may know Jesus, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom God has sent.[b]John 17:3[/b]
If one is not continualy getting to know Jesus, what do you think?

One can not denie that they were once saved, because the merriage license prooves that, however, if one dies in the state of that marriage relationsip being broken, what do you think?



This is the difficulty with the Once Saved, Always Saved position. It assumes that WE cannot sin so much, so badly, so deliberately, with such malice and viciousness that the Holy Spirit is forced away from us.

To me, telling anyone that Once Saved, Always Saved is giving them permission to sin, instead of saying, God will never leave you if you do not leave Him, and leave Him, and leave Him, until God himself is so sickened by your behavior that He sadly turns you over to yourself, and lets you go.

Yes, our tendency to sin, our sin nature, is covered. But there is still that straight and narrow path to be walked, and if you don't go forward on it, you may find that you have turned around and gone back too far.

Having been such a scandalous sinner in my day, I wonder that Jesus hung on as long as He did, except that somehow, He managed to sneak enough word into me when I wasn't looking, that I would get up, dust myself off, and try again to stay on the path. And then I'd fall, and we would start over again, though much of the time I didn't even know it was going on.

I went dangerously far from God. I don't recommend it...The devil was a hair's breadth away from winning in my life.

Yes, Jesus kept trying as long as I kept on responding. I don't want to think of what might have happened if I had said 'no' one too many times.

Blessings,

Forrest


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Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/28 2:27Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

Loosing our salvation makes God a looser and not able to keep that which He has birthed as son's. A Father who cannot keep son's, whose fault is it, the son or the father. God wanted to be a Father before the foundation of the world ever began because Christ was already chosen to be in those the Father gives birth to.

Much more it makes the Cross conditional to man's sin and not on the greatest single Godly act that ever has been, that being to kill His only begotten Son to purchase the life of God's son's He gives birth to, that is born again children of God destined for the Father's house.

It is impossible for man to believe that God is in control of all that man is or will be, that is in Christ and keep him in Christ because the Cross was so important to Him and us who are saved by it.

God won't abort any of His children. Why would a child of God want to walk away from love himself, once he understands by the Holy Spirit that is in him forever, not just until a man says, ok now I am going to walk away from God.
The Holy Spirit is in man who believes and the Spirit of Christ birthed in him forever, how can he be lost.

In Christ forever: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/5/28 4:03Profile
lightwalker
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Joined: 2007/4/27
Posts: 52
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 Re:

Can you lose your salvation? Or do you have to walk away? One man's opinion



God's love is a MORAL love and a conditional love. "Relationship love" is NOT unconditional!
Many have taught that the love of God is an "unconditional" love in relationships: That we are to "love" those who have violated us without seeking justice or protection from that violation. "Unconditional love" as currently taught by the church imprisons people in bad marriages.

By: Stephen Gola


Instant Printable PDF Download



Is God’s Love “Conditional” or “Unconditional”?

Is the “love” of God conditional or unconditional? It is both, depending upon relationship:

“Non-relationship love” is unconditional.
“Relationship love” is conditional.

1. God’s “non-relationship love” is what unconditionally draws us as “sinners” to a holy God to receive the conditions of salvation— the new birth.

For God SO LOVED THE WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16.)

2. God’s “relationship love” is what conditionally offers us as “His children” an intimate relationship with God through continual obedience to His voice and commandments.

He who HAS MY COMMANDMENTS AND KEEPS THEM, it is he who loves Me. And HE WHO LOVES ME will be loved by my father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him. (John 14:21.

For the most part in this teaching, we will deal with “relationship love” which is a “conditional love.” Not understanding the difference between the two has caused great hardship and many lives to be hurt. The Lord has revealed this to heal His people.



Love: It's Moral, It's Conditional

Four Kinds of Love

There are four kinds of "love" needed to make a marriage relationship complete. They are AGAPE, PHILEO, STORGE, and EROS. All are essential in a marriage. The highest form of these types of love is agape. Agape love is an unselfish committed love. It loves when all other types of love quit, and cares when there is no apparent reason to care. Agape is not an unconditional love but a conditional committed love.

Phileo love is the kind of love that makes agape love enjoyable. Phileo love is having tender affection toward your mate. Most friendships are built on phileo love. Phileo love is that "something" that you see in another person that draws you to be their friend. It's one thing to unselfishly commit yourself to love (agape) someone who you do not like to be around because they irritate you. It's quite another thing to unselfishly commit yourself to love someone who is tenderly affectionate (phileo) toward you.

Another kind of love needed in a marriage is storge. Storge is a physical show of affection that results from a pure motive. It may be a hug, a kiss, or another expression of genuine affection. Because males are different than females, the wife usually needs this affectionate kind of love more from her husband than her husband needs from her.

Eros love is needed to make a marriage. Eros is the fulfillment of the physical sexual desire that a husband and wife show toward each other. The sex act has its greatest fulfillment when all the emotions of love and affection are its driving force. It's when "...the two ...become ONE FLESH" (Matthew 19:5).


Unconditional Love, Defined

In Christiandom in general, we have been taught to "unconditionally" love—in this case, your spouse. The teaching of "unconditional" love implies that no matter how your spouse treats you, abuses you or corrupts you and your family, whether by legal or illegal means, you are to "love" them. Essentially, we have been taught that "unconditional" love is a love without moral boundaries.


The Meaning Of Love

To understand the meaning of love we must first understand the fundamental character of love—the basis on which love is defined. Can love be unconditional? And is love able (or should it be able) to cover all actions and or behaviors without any corrective actions?

The universal definition of love is from Love Himself—God. We will see that love is moral if it is to be love at all. Within a wider sense of community, every human right (legal and social) is founded on the concept that love must be moral. Love, to be love, inherently has boundaries and standards. To love our fellow-man, morality obligates us to provide them with social and legal respect: protection from our immoral actions.


The Basis For Knowing We Are Loved

Therefore, to be LOVED by others logically implies that we are being respectfully treated with the same moral obligations by those who claim to love us. This is what Jesus meant when He said to "...love your enemies..." (Matthew 5:44): extend to those who mistreat you the same moral obligations as you would extend to someone you deeply love or respect. In other words, be just, be true and do righteous acts without respect of persons. To teach that love is unconditional destroys this truth.

When we understand that love is conditional it has liberating implications regarding the nature of Justice Himself, the nature of a just government and the nature of justice within the family. The Biblical definition of love is found in the understanding of who God is and knowing Him personally. Teaching that love is unconditional denies the truth that Love Himself is moral.


God, Love And Morality

"If you love (agape) Me, you will keep my commandments." (John 14:15). The part of the Scripture that states "If you love Me" is the conditional part of us keeping God's covenant. Keeping the commandments—the conditions of the covenant, is our direct response back to God which displays that we do indeed love Him. Without the "keeping of the commandments" of the covenant, there is NO display of love back to God. Because "love" is the display of morality, justice and truth it is our gauge to recognize whether others love us and whether we love others.

Even though covenants and relationships are conditional, God commands for us to always extend love—to be moral, just and true to those who are not fulfilling their part of the covenant. The Scripture that states for us to "love your enemies" is NOT a command to "unconditionally" love our enemies, but rather, to morally love them unconditionally.

This means God's love relationship with us is based upon moral absolutes. Therefore, we have those same moral absolutes in our relationships with others. Let's take a look at these moral absolutes within the Ten Commandments.


The Duties Of The Ten Commandments Give Us Protection

Let us review some of these Commandments to establish our right to be protected.

1. You shall not have other gods before Me: The commitment to put God first in any relationship means that God will never tell you that you are bound to a relationship where you cannot enjoy a moral lifestyle.

2. You shall not take the Lord's name in vain: The commitment not to have a loose mouth but to guard the relationship. It is the obligation to have self control and the duty to control what comes out of our mouth.

3. Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy: The commitment to pull away from the week's work and rest. It is a need and duty to enjoy rest and peace from the other six days of work. It is a time of togetherness.

4. Honor your father and mother: The commitment to honor our parents for God's sake, not ours. It is the promise in keeping this duty that gives us a longer happier life on this earth.

5. You shall not murder: Commitment to control anger and to take proper moral action for restitution instead of taking matters into our own hands. It is the duty of the law to protect us, and our duty to protect others (See Romans 13).

6. You shall not commit adultery: The commitment not to violate marriage. It is our duty to remain faithful: emotionally and physically connected to our spouse.

7. You shall not steal: The commitment to work and save in order to purchase what we desire. It is the privilege to own and the protection from theft.

8. You shall not bear false witness: The commitment not to lie to get ahead or to look better than you actually are. It is our privilege to know the truth and to take action upon that truth known.

9. You shall not covet your neighbors stuff, wife, house, etc: A commitment to be content with where you are until you work your plan to get to where you want to be. You have a promise to prosper in all things.

In these commandments are the very promises to enjoy a fruitful life. The greatest commandment that God has given us is for us to walk in "love" (Matt 22:36-40). LOVE IS OUR MORAL FOUNDATION; not even God varies from it.


The Right OF Protection Is Founded In Knowing Who God Is

Psalm 89:14 states: "Righteousness (righteous acts) and justice are the foundation of Your throne; mercy and truth go before Your face."


Word Picture:

God is love (1John 4:8), God is moral, God is just, and God does only righteous acts.

Love Himself sits upon a throne of authority.

His throne is positioned upon a foundation built of justice and righteousness.

This is WHO love is! He cannot vary in any way from being just, true and doing what is righteous.

This is WHY God cannot just "let things go—sweep them under the proverbial rug"—it is a legal thing. Because He is love, He is moral. Because He is moral, He is just. Because He is just, He always does righteous acts. Because this is who He is and we are made in His image, He gives us these same moral obligations through His commandments to guide our lives. This is the basis of a great relationship: whether that relationship is between man and man or God and man.

God loves everyone—sinner and saint alike! God who is Love: "demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). Even though God is love, He is just, righteous and true. Because He is just, righteous and true, it becomes a legal matter which demands a right response. If we do not respond to God's legal demands of justice we will not be legally "justified by His blood... (and)...saved from wrath..." (Romans 5:9). Therefore, we will endure the punishment of wrath because we have rejected righteousness, justice and truth.

Because God is love, He requires people to love, to be just, moral and true. Those who order their lives in the realm of hate, injustice, immorality with deceptions and lies will reap the penalty (or fruit) thereof. Those who order their lives in the realm of love, justice, morality and truth will reap the blessings (or fruit) thereof. Everybody is treated fairly—you reap exactly what you sow—no more, no less! Living a "holy" life is living out love, justice, righteousness and truth, simultaneously. This is what the Scriptures mean in 1 Peter 1:14-16: Be "as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts (strong pressures of the flesh)...but... be holy for I am holy."

Love without morals is to live under tyranny—which is an abuse of authority.

Love has boundaries, love has morals, and love is conditional!


Committed Love, Defined

“Committed love” is vastly different than “unconditional love.” A person of committed love does not take things personally even though they have been personally attacked; rather, they purpose to understand the heart of the person of whom is their focus. A person of committed love has made the decision to develop their self in the character of Who they are: patience, joy, self control, kindness, goodness, endurance, gentleness, faithfulness and meekness. They use all means available to accomplish this: through self-discipline, prayer, the media, studying, reading the Bible and personal experience. A person of committed love has chosen to take the roll of helper rather than accuser in order to develop and to move toward maturity those of whom it is committed to. Through their very character they tenderheartedly and purposely provoke those who should be showing love but are not. In essence, “unconditional love,” a love without conditions, is a lazy love. It overlooks rather than understands. It allows rather than safeguards. (See article on The Extreme Significance of The Fruit of The Spirit.)


Application To Marriage And Relationships

Marriage IS a lifetime commitment; however, it is not a lifetime commitment without conditions.

When we are wrongly taught or erroneously told to be submissive to the immoralities of a spouse we are submitting to slavery and violating the First Commandment to not have any other gods before us. Because God is moral, He has commanded us to rule our lives by that same standard. These are our duties whereby we enjoy life; and have been commanded to extend those same duties to others. We are commanded to live within those freedoms in all situations of life.

When a man or woman attempts to live under the assumptive teaching that he or she must love their spouse unconditionally, they have no moral basis on which to request divorce for abandonment or continued adultery; they have no basis whereby they may leave a relationship because of physical and or psychological abuse. A marriage with no conditions is not a marriage.

This concept of "unconditional love" imprisons a person. It denies that a person has any human worth. When a spouse, parent, sister or brother is taught that they must love unconditionally, they have lost the Biblically-stated privilege to remove themselves from an evil environment or reject any behavior that is not consistent with Biblical teachings.

Because God's love has been wrongly taught as being "unconditional," it has stripped away justice for those who have had crimes done against them. For those seeking justice, many have been labeled as "unmerciful" and "vengeful." The implication is that they cannot be genuinely walking the Christian walk if they will not "forgive" the criminal unconditionally—meaning not to pursue justice. To pursue justice is a God-ordained thing (see Romans 13). Remember, each time a person is told that God loves unconditionally, it implies (and is taught) that all are required to love unconditionally.

God loves because He is love. Because women are more emotional then men, some men say, "She is only acting that way because she is a woman." A woman acts the way she is because she is a woman. Men act the way men act because they are men. Love acts the way He is because He is love. Though God is love, even in His mercy He never just "sweeps our sins and misgivings under the proverbial rug." God forgives when we ask. However, He still requires that we always make the situation right. Forgiving someone does not mean they then continue as nothing happened. Rather, it gives them an open door to make things right.


See also Living A Sinless Life (Not A Sin-proof Life) and
What Does "For Better or for Worse" Mean in a Marriage?


All Rights Reserved, © Copyright 2006 by Stephen Gola

(All Scriptures taken from the King James Version Bible or the New King James version.)

******ALL TEACHINGS MAY BE USED WITHOUT PERMISSION TO TEACH AND TRAIN GOD'S PEOPLE. PLEASE KEEP THE COPYRIGHT INTACT.******


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Melody

 2007/5/28 9:14Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
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 Re:

Eternal Security is not up to us. Just like a baby being born is not up to the baby. When God planned before the foundation of the world to have son's that are in Christ Jesus, he did not ask if the son's wanted to be born again. His birthing of His only begotten son in Mary was His choice not hers, all she did was agree with God. I think that is enough, if the Holy Spirit appeared to us and said God is going to birth the Incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ His Son in you all we can do is agree.

Salvation is up to God not man or He would not have had to kill His only begotten Son to accomplish the act. Who are we to judge God in what He is doing and what He is going to accomplish in the life of the son's He gives birth to. Eternal security is up to Him, If He makes a mistake in birthing a son into His kingdom, which I don't believe He can or would do, then it is still up to Him to apply His perfect justice and He has, that is Jesus Christ is our justification and righteousness, not what we do. He has set us free in Christ Jesus to be son's while we are here or in His House. That is up to Him when they are trained to be His son's. Some here and some there, but they are still His son's if Christ is birthed in them.

Religion puts it upon man and what he does to make son's. God has made sure man cannot do anything to be a son of God. It is up to Him. All we can do is believe what God has done. This is not an ism, it is the truth of the scriptures. God never makes a mistake, even from the beginning of time as we know it, He is still in charge and making decisions from His will, not ours.

Dan 11:16 But he that cometh against Him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before Him: and He shall stand in the glorious land, which by His hand shall be consumed.

1Cr 7:37 Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.

God will keep the Bride of Christ and decreed it in His Heart.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:

Hbr 2:4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will?

Jam 1:18 Of His own will begat He us with the Word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

"Once saved always saved" is a stupid saying of man. But Eternal Security must come from God by His choice. John 5:37-44 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

This is eternal security: Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Jhn 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Forget the argument and seek life eternal, which is surly Eternal Security, and life eternal is Christ in you the Hope of Glory, birthed by the Father and not the choice of man.

Jhn 17:2 As thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given Him.

Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Do we know Jesus Christ and the Father? Jhn 7:29 But I know him: for I am from Him, and He hath sent me.

John knew Him, and I know Him. I want to know Him more, throughout all eternal time and in that security I stand.

Jhn 8:55 Yet ye have not known Him; but I know Him: and if I should say, I know Him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know Him, and keep His saying.

Jhn 14:7 If ye had known Me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.

I have seen Jesus Christ in my brothers and sisters and henceforth I know Jesus Christ and His Father.

Do we know the Holy Spirit? Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Before by new birth the Holy Spirit was with me, and now He is In me. The all in all is now nature and all I want is to know Him and to be pleasing to Him by the birthing of His Son in me.

Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death;

In God, In Christ, In the Holy Spirit and They in me: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/5/28 22:22Profile
jimp
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Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, david cut a covenant with jonathan and when david was established as king, he remembered this and asked if there was any in the house of saul that he could honor because of this covenant.mephiboseth was injured in his feet(lame)while escaping davids army and grew up being told that david had usurped his authority as the heir to the throne. he was poisened with hate and fear of david and had nothing to do with him.david found mephibosheth hiding in the wilderness and had him brought to the kings table to enjoy the fruit of the covenant david made with jonathan.david did not care about the heirs actions or feelings toward him,but he honored the covenant. Jesus is the covenant maker and the cutter (SHEDDER OF BLOOD)and our advocate (attorney) and He said I will NEVER leave you... He said nothing shall seperate... He said that no man shall pluck you out of my hand...my faith is in what Jesus did on the cross for me giving me zoe life (His life)not in my ability to be perfect(without sin).for more than 40 years i have wept over the fact that He loves me not for who i am but for who He is. jimp

 2007/5/29 0:32Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Just wanted to ask a question. Are we speaking of justification, or salvation? They are differing things after all.

What I mean is this
I was saved-justification
I am being saved-sanctification
I shall be saved-glorification

All this talk of losing salvation is really hinged upon who you believe started the work in the first place. I suppose those of the Arminian persuasion think that because they "chose" God, they are saved and must work to maintain that.

Yet Scripture tells us a different thing
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover [b]whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/b]

Notice these words are in the past tense, as if they were done already. Now as one who believes in the Sovereign grace of God, I have no problem whatsoever saying that what He begins, He will finish, and not one person Christ purchased shall be lost, not a one. Thus God is glorified in that He takes the foolish, weak, things and puts His Spirit within and makes them perservere.
Why?
Because anyone genuinely converted is not converted by their choosing God, but rather by God's choosing them in eternity past.

Now if you must worry and fuss over losing or gaining your entry into Heaven, perhaps it has not been granted to you I do not know, but this I do know, I have been saved by a great and mighty Saviour who will raise me up at the last day because He has purchased my soul, and because He has fulfilled the requirements of the Law perfectly on my behalf. His Spirit lives within me producing holiness, and hatred for sin in such ways that I am even amazed at how I think now as it has all been grace.

You can trust the man who died for you, but I guess depending on ones' theological persuasion that is a question as well as Arminians do not believe that Christ did for anyones' sins, but rather as an example of God's hatred for sin, but not to purchase or redeem any from satan, sin, and death. Sorry if any are offneded by the Arminian talk, but Historical Arminianism does not believe that Christ died for anyone, they do not beleive in the substitutionary atonement of Christ for His people.

Many do not know this, so many Arminian pastors will tell people, "Jesus died for your sins" while that is a Calvinist/Biblical view, it is not traditional Arminianism, and because the lines are so blurred, we have a mess of confusion and unstable souls who will never have assurance of their rest in Christ in His great work because they are being hammered by those who are much like the "Judaizers" who say, "you must do thus and such to be a Christian" and if you do not maintain the work you will lose your salvation which brings us back to the idea of Roman Catholicism and works righteousness.

So here is the real question, can a person lose their justification? Can the crimes that were against me that were blotted out the day God's Spirit regenerated me and granted me faith to believe my sinfulness and Christ's greatness, to convict me of sin and bring me to repentance of my sins be brought back up against me?

Can a criminal be tried for the crimes another paid for? or is God unjust in requiring Christ to die for sin, and for the sinner to be punished also?


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/5/29 2:13Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

"What I mean is this
I was saved-justification
I am being saved-sanctification
I shall be saved-glorification"

Conformation;

2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

Delivered, justified. Doth deliver, sanctification. Will yet deliver, glorification.

Notice this is not a question but a statement of fact.

For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
2Cr 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/5/29 4:26Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
"What I mean is this
I was saved-justification
I am being saved-sanctification
I shall be saved-glorification"

Conformation;

2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

Delivered, justified. Doth deliver, sanctification. Will yet deliver, glorification.

Notice this is not a question but a statement of fact.

For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
2Cr 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

In Christ: Phillip




Phillip, my dear one,

I am worried about the Laodiceans, who are so lukewarm about Jesus that He says he will vomit them out of His mouth.

Jesus talks about going back to their first love of Him, their initial belief not withstanding.

[color=993300]Rev. 3: 14. And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18. I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.[/color]

Jesus talks about overcoming, not about initial belief. This is about the straight and narrow path, and walking in it, working with the Holy Spirit, every day until death or the Rapture. Jesus speaks of repentence, not initial belief.

It says nothing about how the Laodiceans will be saved because they once believed. The problem is, they no longer believe enough to repent, or even acknowledge their sins! And hence, Jesus is nauseous at the very idea of them.

I am not talking about works of any kind but what Jesus tells us to do. He wants us to believe on Him, and love Him enough to walk the straight and narrow path with the help of the Holy Spirit. And if we love Him, and fall, He'll even pick us up and carry us for a time.

All of this relates to holiness of the mind and heart, and the consistant striving to get to Jesus. And if you don't keep going toward Him, you are going away from Him. And you can go too far away, just like the Laodiceans.

Yes, we can only repent because of His work in us, stay on the straight and narrow path by His living in us. But if we no longer believe, and will not repent, the original covenent is broken.

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/29 14:17Profile





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