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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
If we are chosen why would we bother to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith?


good question. i have read 2 corinthians 13 many times now. i have not consulted my only commentary (that's for ormly), just my bible and the strong's concordance.

* examine- to test; approve; discern
* faith- truthfulness of God; credence
* prove- same as above
* reprobate- unapproved; rejected

so we might re-write this verse as such:

discern for yourselves whether you are in the faith (truthfulness of God). test yourself. don't you know that Jesus lives in you, unless you are unapproved and rejected.

i have a few questions concerning this verse.
1) who are they to test??
2) by what method are they to test??
3) who was this letter written to??
4) why was this written to them??

1) they are to test themselves.
2) i believe they are to test their fruit. are they good fruit off a good tree or bad fruit off a bad tree (matt 7). are they bearing good fruit (little or much) and thus be seen (as much as humanly possible) to be of Christ or are they bearing no fruit and thus to be looked upon as evil men and imposters.
3) to the church at corinth and the saints who are in all achaia.
4) he wrote this letter to..
* explain his ministry
* appeal for believers to seperate from unbelievers
* answer charges made against him

this particular passage is in context to where paul is talking about coming to them and that he doesn't want to find them carnal.

so to answer your question pastorfrin,

i believe that where there is carnality and the flesh evident, it would be wise for every man to consider whether they were truly born again or was it a false profession followed by false faith (one that has words but no action).

now about the second part of your question..

Quote:
If we are not then we are lost and there is nothing we can do about it since we are not chosen.


1) we do not know who is the elect of God and who is not
2) if one is not found to be in the faith because of no fruit, then let the man repent and believe in Christ for the remission of sins.

i don't understand why you asked the second part of that question.. just because i believe in the eternal security of the believer doesn't mean that i am "calvanistic" in every catagory of personal doctrine.

anyways, i hope that i answered your question. i tried to the best of my ability my friend. thanks for taking the time to write and enter into the conversation. i hope that this kinda helps you understand my position on this text.

 2007/7/10 23:38Profile









 Re:

Hi Brother Phil, I'm spinning it all around in my head too as you know. I put great faith in Jn 16:13 and a Bible that's true too.

Being AoG for so many years and now in a Reformed Church, which I love ... I had to learn reformed theology and I surely do respect it.

You brought up where I get stuck also.

If we do not know who is the Elect of GOD and who is not, then how would we know if we 'are' the Elect ?

See, I was on another forum and we talked about this a lot. Phew, Really a lot. I shy away from this talk now because of those days.

Anyhow, I read a quote from the predestined side that said that God could allow some to 'think' they are saved and go through all of what a person would do if they were, but then find out in the end that they were not "Chosen" or Elected.

Even in the Bible study group I'm in with 70 & 80 yr. olds, who have been Reformed all of their lives, and their Mamas and Papas were too, they said, that they "sure hope they make it". Wow! That shocked me, because I thought they of all people wouldn't think such a thing. But they do.

That's what turned me personally away again from that belief. So I started looking into the "Foreknowledge" verses again and all like them and came up with what I posted really early on this thread.
That GOD "Foreknew" who would be faithful unto the end and they are called the Elect. And His promises are to those Elect. So now, if I just remain in Him and faithful unto the end as He commanded and whatever else He calls "His commandments", then my assurance level is not in whether I'm one of the predestined unto salvation, but that I am predestined to be conformed into the Image of Christ because I do want to stay faithful out of Love for Him and I want to cling to those verses in Phil 3:7-15.

Some folks think that we who don't believe in [u]un[/u]-conditional eternal security are always doubting our salvation, but that's not true at all. I doubted more when I tried the predestined belief on for size.

I'm not trying to repeat all that I posted on page ? but I think those early pages got lost somewheres, but anyhow, I'm not saying you're wrong or I'm right ... I just like to have the same freedom that we all want, to just be able to share views on this and then pray about them all.

I have no intentions of changing a single mind on any thread. I'm all for "freewill" in beliefs and otherwise.

I like to read everyone's views on this thread and just know that He is Faithful, to complete the work He began in us "If we abide in Him" as He said.
Well, I think we are abiding or we wouldn't be here talking to each other now. We'd be doing something carnal instead with our time. Ha.

I like reading all views though, but at the end of the day we must come to some sort of peace with God over what we believe and that's where it counts and when the rubber meets the road, as they say.

'Thank you' brother.
Annie

 2007/7/11 0:17









 Katy-did

Quote:
I live by every word of God,



Praise God!! and may He guard your heart....always.

 2007/7/11 0:23
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

2 Corinthians 13:3-6 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you. For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you. Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

"prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you"

Paul is saying these Corinthians are looking for proof that they are saved. That is why Paul says Examine yourselves.

This is probably what they were asking also.
"If we are chosen why would we bother to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith."

But Paul says to do it. Why, to prove even to themselves they are in Christ. To prove and know that they are not reprobates.

Why would John say we have proof in our selves?
1 John 5:9-13 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Man cannot witness that we are saved, that means we cannot even witness to ourselves that we are saved, but God can and does and will. Even this witness is in ourselves by Him because you believe on the name of the Son of God.

This is our proof of elect and predestination.
Ephesians 1:3-12 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Do you trust in Christ? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God? Do you believe the Jesus Christ is in you? These are the proofs that we are elect. There are even more proofs. Do you believe that Jesus Christ was born of a Virgin? Do you believe that Jesus Christ died on a Cross and was resurrected?
Do you believe that Jesus Christ ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father? Do you believe His promise; He will not leave you comfortless. Do you believe He is come? Is come in the life of Himself birthed in these that Paul is telling to examine yourself, and us too, examine yourselves whether we be in the Faith.

What is your answer?

Mine is yes to all, I am the elect, in Christ I am: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/7/11 1:16Profile









 Re:

"For false christs and false prophets will arise, and will work great signs and wonders, so as to mislead [deceive], if it were possible, the very elect.
Matthew 24:24

Question: If we are the elect, who are the "very elect"? Why is a distinction being made here?

 2007/7/11 2:10









 Re:

Quote:

GrannieAnnie wrote:
Quote:
...we don't overcome by beating people up and calling names and acting as though you were God who can see into the hearts of every man here.

I don't know what is going on with you, but you need to get a grip. There are many different views here, and you seem to have sef control with those you don't agree with




Sorry, couldn't resist this one.

What pages should I bring back to our remembrance now ? :-o

Let's see now, it started with page 24 or 25 or 26 or ...........


Orm, have you kept count since pg 39 how many "cults" you've been in ?

I needed a laugh today. Hoy-Vey. Orm is the kettle now.

BTW ~ brother Phil does JUST FINE on every other thread.



Yeah, I guess I am a real test of the ol patience, eh? There are tests that everybody can take and pass and then there tests well, some folk really don't want to show up for. ... I'm pushy.

BTW, It sounds to me like you are more in a "White Knuckle Club" than a church. :-D

Gotta ask the question: If you believe you are saved, why is Heaven still the goal? A Christian can't go anywhere else when he/she dies. Now if everyone wishes to check their credentials well, that might not be a bad idea. :-?

 2007/7/11 2:17









 Re:

Will this subject ever die in the world?

 2007/7/11 2:26









 Re:

Quote:

LoveHim wrote:
Quote:
If we are chosen why would we bother to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith?


good question. i have read 2 corinthians 13 many times now. i have not consulted my only commentary (that's for ormly), just my bible and the strong's concordance.



Thank you :-D

Quote:
* examine- to test; approve; discern
* faith- truthfulness of God; credence
* prove- same as above
* reprobate- unapproved; rejected

so we might re-write this verse as such:

discern for yourselves whether you are in the faith (truthfulness of God). test yourself. don't you know that Jesus lives in you, unless you are unapproved and rejected.



NO! Test yourself to see if you are IN HIM, living by His faith, not yours; His life, not yours. That is what Paul is getting at. Now what does that require of you in your "love affair" with the Father, assuming you now understand that, being IN Christ, is what this is all about? Love to and intimacy with, the Father.

Now examine yourself and see what you come up with.

 2007/7/11 2:28









 Re:

What does *God* have to say about making sure you are in the faith. What was Peter talking about before and after he said these words? Why don't we get our answers from the very text itself.


2 Peter 1
1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[i][b][size=x-small][color=CC0000]9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to ****MAKING YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE, for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: [/color][/size][/b][/i]
11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

13Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

14Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

15Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

[u][i][b][size=xx-small][color=CC0000]16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. [/color][/size][/b][/i][/u]


19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

You have to know the Word first to Obey it in the first place.


This chapter is a warning to those who are being drawn away with Gnosticism believing you have to **earn your way to SONSHIP* or try to kill sin within to purify yourselves( Hindu/New Agers/ perverted Penticostalism). This teaching has been around from the beginning of the Church Age. Nothing New under the sun. Peter is reminding us our sin is forgiven, and that Jesus Christ was there before the cross and a SON. We don't acheive Sonship.

Re-read it again with Peter's warnings at the end. It completely exposes those who are teaching this as we speak. But then again, they have their own intrepretations of scripture and have no ear to hear what God is saying to us.


Love in Christ
Katy-did

[b]PS added: Peter clearly says in Chapter 3 verse 1 exactly WHY he wrote this letter and warning to the Church. The whole letter is a WARNING to believers that false teachers are among. He Clearly establishes you in Chapter 1. [/b]

Anyway, For those ONLY who are in Christ and read what God says, not man.

 2007/7/11 4:48
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved??? Revisited

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
2 Corinthians 13:3-6 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you. For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you. Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.


[color=993300]2Corinthians 13: 7. Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.
8. For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.
9. For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.[/color]

Quote:
1 John 5:9-13 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


[color=993300]1 John 5:10. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14. And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15. And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
16. If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.[/color]

Quote:
Ephesians 1:3-12 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.


[color=993300]Ephesians 1:13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory....Ephesians 4:13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
[b] 17. This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18. Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19. Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20. But ye have not so learned Christ;
21. If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27. Neither give place to the devil.
28. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32. And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.[/b][/color]

Phillip,

I agree that we are predestined to election by God, who is indeed the author and finisher of our faith.

We can do nothing without Him.

We do not even desire to make Him our Lord, or obey Him without His choice of us first.

God prepares the ground, He gives and plants the Seed (Christ), and waters and cherishes our growth through the teaching, comforting and chastisement of the Holy Spirit.

Even with all that help, though, we still have to obey God, or we bear no fruit, and are not conformed to the Image of Christ.

And vines that bear no fruit are cut down and burned...quite literally in hell.

Predestination, Election, Sowing, Nurturing...all this is done by God.

But to conform to Christ's image we must obey, and that obedience causes the death of self.

The more we obey, and obey, and obey, the more we are conformed to Christ's image.

Unfortunately, the devil is really good at tempting us not to obey.

God allows the tests, and therefore the tests must be real.

We are allowed to disobey.

We are allowed to disobey all the way into hell.

Even though we are called, chosen, predestined, even elected.

But Paul says to make our Election sure, because Election is as much a process, as an end result.

Only obedience, and resulting fruit of our conformity to Christ's image get's us to being the absolute, total, finished product...A Son of God.

We can't get started without God.

We can't get close to the finish line without obedience, even with all the help He gives us, day in, day out, by means of the Holy Spirit.

And that obedience and dying to self is how we pick up our Cross, and follow so far in Christ's footsteps that we, too, literally die, to who we were once were.

God knows who will eventually be conformed to the image of His Son, naturally. We are not told who is conformed into Christ's image. We are told if we persevere in obedience, and hence, continue to die to ourselves, that we will be conformed to Christ's image, even if we do not reach that perfect place before we die, which we can't. None of us can. Christ fills in the gap.

What God does not guarantee any of us is that in the face of continuous disobedience, and lack of fruit, which is conformity to Christ's image, that God will not chop us down, and feed us to the fire.


Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/7/11 5:58Profile





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