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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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UniqueWebRev
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Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved??? Revisited

Hmmm. I ask a simple question about OSAS 13 posts ago, and no one will answer it.

You are all so concerned with the fact or non-fact of Election that you are missing my point.

OSAS is not about Election. It's not about what is true or even false.

OSAS is a trap set for the feet of the unwary, the new-born in Christ.

OSAS says that under no circumtances can you lose your relationship with God once the seed of faith is sown into your heart.

Part of the time I even believe it.

But what I have been asking all along is what the doctrine of OSAS, taught to a new-born believer, might do to their actual ability to refrain from falling away.

I go to the trouble of delineating having received all of the types of seed sowing into the heart, and DUE TO THE PERCEPTION OF THE NEW BELIEVER, can cause great harm by telling those babes in Christ that they can never lose their salvation when they, much less ourselves, do not even know if the seed was sown into good ground.

You are all doing a spendid job in avoiding the point of this thread, much less answering one post of mine without making the entire affair about the doctrine of Election.

And I am truly horrified by your lack of oncern for the new-born in Christ, who do not yet know if their 'ground' will endanger their salvation, or cause it to go awry.

And I am beginning to think many of you have a strange type of selective reading and response.

After all, most of you don't even address the questions at the end of the post, leading me to believe that you don't get past the first paragraph before thinking about how to get your favority doctrinal point across.

I pray that I am only seeing a habit of defense of your pet views, rather than a total disregaard of the point in question.

And the point in question runs in every post of my in this thread.

I am unconcerned if OSAS is true or not. Prove it!

What bugs me is that many of you are happily telling OSAS to the most vulnerable of the newly saved, even while knowing that the newborn's too early knowledge, and twisted perception of what God promises can be used against them by the Evil One.

I'm not shocked at the behavior I find here.

But I m truly disappointed that no one answers a post unless their answer can express their pet viepoints.


In His service,


Forrest




Page 26
My dear ones,

I thank you for all your deep interest in going over this question so deeply.

Oddly, despite all that's been said, I feel as if we have not touched the heart of the question I was asking from the beginning.

Once Saved, Always Saved is a doctrine related to Election by Fore-Ordination and Predestination.

To resolve any questions about my viewpoints, I happen to believe in God's Soveriegnty, and His right to do as He pleases with us, include Elect to Salvation or Damn whomever He pleases.

That is His right as our Creator. But our God has rules for Himself about Justice and Mercy, on Compassion and Grace.

Quote:
Rookie said :
[color=993300]Job 33:14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, [yet man] perceiveth it not.

15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;

16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,

17 That he may withdraw man [from his] purpose, and hide pride from man.

18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

19 ¶ He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong [pain]:

20 So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat.

21 His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones [that] were not seen stick out.

22 Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.

23 ¶ If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:

24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.

25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:

26 He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.

27 He looketh upon men, and [if any] say, I have sinned, and perverted [that which was] right, and it profited me not;

28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.

29 Lo, all these [things] worketh God oftentimes with man,

30 To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.

[/color]


Consequently, I also believe, at one and the same time, that God does want our willing cooperation in becoming a member of His family.

He offers His Son's sufferings to us, and says, "Whosover will...."

[color=993300]Mark 8:34 Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.


Matthew 10:32. Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.[/color]

God gives us choice in the matter. The fact that from an Eternal viewpoint He has known from the beginning who would take His invitation to righteousness through Christ is, for the purpose of this post, irrelevant. It is irrelevant to most Christians. God knows, but we do not.

We do not know if we are among the Elect. We can't. We are not in a position to know.

And I do not believe that God wants us to take an attitude of, "I'm special...God chose me, and not you!"

In leaving it up to us to make a freewill choice, of "Whomsoever will....", God is requiring us to make sure of our salvation by obeying Christ's Commands to [color=993300]"Love God with all your mind, heart, soul, and strength; and your neighbor as your self".[/color] If we do obey, we will consequently produce fruit unto Christ.

We are taught what to do to keep from falling prey to the devil, which then presupposes the ability to fall.

[color=993300]1 Corinthians 10:12. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.[/color]

The doctrine of predestination is flat out taught from Genesis onwards. Grace begins with Christ's death, and the beginning of the New Covenant.

Election and Free-Will acceptance of Grace, to me, happen at the same time, since Election is from God's viewpoint, and Free-Will acceptance of Grace is from our viewpoint.

Which is why I asked a simple question long ago.

What are we to tell unbelievers and newcaught fish about God and Christ? Are we to confuse them by saying they may or may not be Elect? Are we to tell them they are always saved, no matter what they do, because they asked Jesus into their hearts, and were baptised?

Had someone told me that after my baptism, I might be a well known, popular 'Psychic', possessed by a dozen demons, and believing I was 'saved'!

Not being works based, to me fruit comes naturally to any believer after conforming ourself to the image of Christ. It happens bit by bit, with the help of the Holy Spirit. If one obeys Jesus, and tries to do what He wants, the Holy Spirit works within us and changes us. You walk in love, and kindess, and patience, and well, fruit happens!

So, are we to tell unbelievers and newcaught fish that they must do this and that, or they will not be saved, loading them down with the Law again? Paul would say, [color=993300]"God Forbid!"[/color]

How much of a burden must we lay on those who are coming to us for instruction?

When I laid out my life in previous posts, and my experience of going through all four sowings of the Parable Jesus spoke of, I tried to show how dangerous it was to tell a babe too much of God's position of Election, and Man's experience of that Election as Grace. I also recognize the danger of telling that same babe that he must follow the 'rules and regulations', or Grace doesn't apply!

How much of a burden must we lay on those who are coming to us for instruction?

What do we explain to an adult who comes to us, seeking instruction?

On my little web site I don't talk about Wesley or Calvin, Luther, or Zwinglii. EDIT: I'd talk about Melanchthon, but I don't think anyone knows him.END EDIT

I talk about the grace God offers us, that because humans can't be perfect, we can't get into Heaven without Jesus. I tell people that God is offering us a tremendous bargain..."Believe that My Son came to earth, was born as a baby of the Virgin Mary, lived a perfect human life because He was also Divine, and died in our place, so we can go to heaven, and you will go to heaven!

[color=993300]Matthew 7:13. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
[/color]

Suddenly, we are talking about a decision to believe, and the faith that God gives us to maintain our decision, and grow in Him, we in Jesus, and Jesus in us.

[color=993300]Matthew 11:27. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.[/color]

We use the scriptures to warn new believers that the Deceiver is out there, and wants them to fail, and that's why they have to avoid bad company, or be careful to keep a few rules, for their own safety.

Yes, as they seek the word, they will in time come to Paul's writings that discuss the legality of God doing what He said he would do, from Jewish Prophecy from the Jewish viewpoint!

And they will be a bit confused until they get the whole picture, the entire gestault of the Bible, but if they are soundly grounded in the faith that God gives them, and they practice that faith, getting up again and again, when they fall, and starting over, knowing Jesus is right there with them, helping them to get up, and that the Holy Spirit will continually make things to work out for good for those that love the Lord, and are called according to His purpose, they can slowly figure out that all of the Bible goes together.

Even when it sounds as if the Word is in conflict, because two statements negate each other, it is because the context is not being considered, nor is who that is speaking.

And so I am back to my original question. Do you want an unbeliever or a babe in Christ that has come to you for instruction to be told Once Saved, Always Saved?

And remember, that statement alone creates a firestorm amongst mature Christians, who are fairly sure, so long as they keep going as they are, with Jesus in them, and the Holy Spirit teaching them, that they are of the Elect that God promised to Jesus.

Do you want me to tell these people who know nothing of doctrines or famous theologists that if they ask Jesus into their heart, that they can never, under any circumstances, be tricked into walking away from Jesus? That the Devil is not seeking to devour them when it is written that he is?

[color=993300]1 Peter 5

1. The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2. Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3. Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
5. Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
6. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7. Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
8. Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9. Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
10. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
11. To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.[/color]

Or shall I just talk to them of Jesus, and what He did for us, that we might be with Him forever, living in victory in this life, and in a glorified body with Him in the New Jerusalem, and always be with Jesus, throughout eternity?


Blessings,

Forrest


Page 27
Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Quote:

"""Do you want me to tell these people who know nothing of doctrines or famous theologists that if they ask Jesus into their heart, that they can never, under any circumstances, be tricked into walking away from Jesus? That the Devil is not seeking to devour them when it is written that he is?"""

...Yes tell these people that they cannot lose their salvation, it is of God, but the devil will seek to deceive and devour them to that their witness for God is trampled under his feet. It is God that Satan is after and just uses us to get at Him. But, that does not mean that we can loose our salvation, Christ in us is the Hope of Glory and God wins with every person that has Him in them.
That was the victory at the Cross. Amen

Satan not only wants to destroy our witness but also to destroy our faith given by Christ through Grace and get us to believe that we are still in control of our salvation and can loose it by our actions and works of sin, which Christ cannot forgive.

Either you have the Spirit of Christ or you do not. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Maintaining all the commandments is not our responsibility or the Law would still be in effect. Maintaining is up to the Christ that is in us and by His resurrection power and His Cross, not ours, are we able to know that our salvation is secure. No man can keep the commandments of God or Christ would not have had to come and go to the Cross. So all of the, ifs, whens, if nots, and will be's, are our responsibility only knowing that the Christ in us is the only one that can do them and we must depend on Him for our life and we will never loose it, if we don't we will and can loose it. "Christ in you the Hope of Glory is the only answer to all these questions, for He is the only One that can keep them and us by the sealing of the Holy Spirit of God into Christ, which make us quite secure, for I know no one that can snatch us our of His hands.

In Christ our all in all and our life and security in our salvation God has given by His will and choice: Phillip




Dear Philip,

I thank you for being the first one to actually answer the question I have been asking all along - what do I tell these dear people to do when the devil has a good grip on their shoulders, and is going to fight tooth and nail against Jesus?

I disagree with you about telling anyone their salvation is assured when Paul himself would not leave off striving for the prize.

I have no doubt that the sins of my flesh are paid in full by the Blood of Christ.

But the Devil also seeks our minds and hearts, and will have our own Brother's and Sister's in the faith twist and turn what is a matter for God to know, ie. that our salvation was unto Election, and that Christ will forever keep us.

I do not doubt that Christ stood at my side and fought to keep me for 27 years from the devil after my baptism, knowing I had been deceived.

But I will not tell an unbeliever or a babe in Christ that you can walk in sin, and Christ will live with it until you come to your senses, even though I have experienced it myself.

I don't want to give the Devil that much help!

If Paul can be consistantly doubting his salvation, and he is an Apostle of God, I think that I too, and all others need to look to their laurels, and fight the good fight to the end, striving always for victory in this life, and a "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" from He whom we serve.


Blessings,

Forrest

Page 29
Quote:

elected wrote:
UniqueRevWeb wrote:
Quote:
We do not know if we are among the Elect. We can't. We are not in a position to know.



I dont believe in election according to the interpretation of calvinists but i wholehearted believe what the bible says about predestination and election, even though i cannot understand it.



Redi, I haven't finished my study of Calvinism yet, but so far as I can say at this time, I can't believe what Calvin says either.

And yet, I too acknowledge that some of mankind are predestined to become the elect of God.

But who are they? How do we know we are one of them?

[color=993300]Matthew 24:22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 24:31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:20. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mark 13:22. For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:27. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 18:7. And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
8. I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Romans 8: 33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Romans 9:10. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11. (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Romans 11:1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace:
otherwise work is no more work.
7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Romans 11:26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31. Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.[/color]

Everyone of these statements were made by Jesus to Jews, or by Paul to the Jews in Rome. Even the argument of predestination is made to the Jews at Rome, and indeed, are not the Jews the Elect of God?

But later on, when it is declared that there is no more Jew or Gentile, Bond or Free, the Elect suddenly includes those that believe through Jesus.

[color=993300]Colossians 3:11. Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13. Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
15. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
16. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

1 Thessalonians 1: 3. Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
4. Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
6. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:[/color]

Yet even are the Angels elect!

[color=993300]1 Timothy 5: 21. I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.[/color]

And finally, to making sure of the elect, that they may obtain salvation.

[color=993300]2Timothy 2: 7. Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
8. Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9. Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
10. Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.[/color]

It would be nice to say that anyone who believes in Jesus as his Saviour is automatically of the elect, but there are so many verses riddled throughout the New Testament that appear to say that we must make our election sure.

And we do this not by works, but by a continuing belief in Jesus' ability and willingness to take our sins, once and for all. And this releases us to a life of grace, where our old nature may very well sin, but it doesn't matter because our hearts and minds are fixed on obedience to Jesus.

[color=993300]John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him[/color]

Obedience doesn't come easily to any of us, and certainly not just after we have have asked Jesus to be our Lord.

Paul continuously speaks of the need to press onward, to not be discouraged, to fight one's own self to obtain the great prize of salvation by disciplining oneself, and to work with the Holy Spirit to be conformed to the Image of Jesus.

Fo Paul himself states that the elect are not the Elect we seem to think exists, or he would not have said:

[color=993300]Titus 1:1. Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2. In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;[/color]

And Peter? He calls himself one of the Elect, but goes on to recommend faith.

[color=993300]1 Peter 1: 1. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4. To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.[/color]

And the Cornerstone of our faith is Jesus, a Jew, one of the Elect, on whom belief alone is sufficient.

[color=993300]1 Peter 2: 6. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.[/color]

And to the church at Babylon, which was Jewish?

[color=993300]1 Peter 5:6. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7. Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
8. Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9. Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
10. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
11. To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
12. By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.
13. The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.[/color]

And Peter speaks to Jews, not Gentiles, in the main, for it was Paul that was sent to the Gentiles.

[color=993300]2 Peter 1:3. According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7. And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:[/color]

And finally, in John, the word elect is merely a term of praise, or of category, of those that believe.

[color=993300]2 John 1. The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2. For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
3. Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
4. I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
5. And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6. And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11. For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
12. Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.
13. The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.[/color]

But when you are considering becoming a Christian, all of this is so far beyond your understanding that it is foolishness to teach it. So I don't. I don't want those on the brink of making a committment to Christ to be tortured with doctrine and dogma.

I want people to start in the simplicity of Grace, and not worry about the rest of it, for in the end, Grace is sufficient.

[color=993300]John 1:9. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Acts 15:1. And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3. And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4. And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9. And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11. But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.[/color]

Does a seeker need to know at the time of decision that there are questions in the entire Church of Christ that we more knowledgable Christians don't agree on?

No one believes that we, to become a Christian, do not have to do anything at all to gain that Grace, or there wouldn't be any resistence to the idea. The simplest child that can understand the basic Word of God knows instinctively that we have to do something to become a Christian.

And they are right. We have to believe that Christ is the Son of God, who lived a perfect life, then died for us, so that we would not have to suffer from the imperfection of our built in sin nature.

And after we decide to believe, and take Jesus as our Lord, we know we have to do something to maintain our belief. Yes, the Holy Spirit gives each of us a portion of faith, and stands ready to work with us through all the struggles of trying to be holy when we are in a sinful body that we cannot be rid of before death. And yes, we do have to avoid sinning deliberately, whih means living not in the world, but being called out from it.

And this is why Jesus commanded us to love God, and to love each other.

[color=993300]Matthew 22:37. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38. This is the first and great commandment.
39. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

John 13:34. A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.[/color]

And loving God requires obedience, as our proof of our love of God.

And the struggle to love each other, to be patient with each other, and kind, and walk in humility, and endure each other's bad moments, and to practice loving each other until it becomes less of a struggle for us, as we hope for the time when loving each other will be no struggle at all.

And in this love and struggle I see no proof of election. I see the proof of man trying to maintain a relationship with God by doing what He says. I believe we may be of the Elect, but that we will not know until we have run our course, and find out from Jesus that we were a good and faithful servant.

And so I keep placing the question before you, and all my brothers and sisters at SI. What do we tell the seekers and the brand new believers in Christ? Election, or Grace?


Blessings,

Forrest
Once Saved...Always Saved??? Revisited Part 7


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/7/9 0:05Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved??? Revisited

Page 30
I've been studying the Reformation, and the tangle of people surrounding Luther and Calvin, and came up finally with a statement that I liked very much for it put the relative placement of where we all have to walk out our salvation.


[color=0000FF]A Sovereign God, Human Will, and Divine Grace.[/color]


God must prepare the ground, else the seed sown by God cannot take.

Man must consent, else there is no love or trust in God.

But without Divine Grace, there really is no way for man to be saved.


I keep wondering, in all sincerity, how can we know we are of the elect until we meet Jesus?

What we can know is that God prepared the ground in which we said "Yes" to Jesus. This is the only free will necessary.

And Divine Grace? Without Jesus, we are nothing, lost forever. And without the Holy Spirit, who is there to teach us to understand the Word, and the intent of our Soveriegn God?


Once Saved, Always Saved seems to be shorthand for all that I have said above, but without the distinctions, I cannot preach it to an unbeliever, or promise it to a babe in Christ.

I can say, God led you to this moment, He will keep you safe, if you believe in His Son.

I can say, without Jesus, we are none of saved, except by the arbitrary rule of the Father, who can save whom He will, and damn whom He will, for He created us.

[color=993300]Romans 9:13. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.[/color]


And without Jesus in our hearts, and Holy Spirit teaching us to walk on, we cannot make our election sure.

[color=993300]2 Peter 1: 2. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3. According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7. And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:[/color]

There is no merit in man, yet we must do something to continue in Christ. Faith, and diligence in faith, walking the straight and narrow path, and not turning back, can only be accomplished with the Father's gift of the Son, and the Son's gift of the Holy Spirit, that we may never fall.

Blessings,

Forrest


Page 35

Quote:

LoveHim wrote:
yeah, i always looked at that story, along with hebrews 11 as an example of one brother loving God and desiring to live how God wanted and another brother who didn't care what God said, but loved his life more than God..

"if you gain your life in this world, you will lose it, but if you lose your life in this world, you will gain it".

what is you're guys' interpretation of this scripture verse??

i john 3:9 " whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God"



Oh, Thank You for asking!!!!

In Jesus we cannot sin, because He already took our sin, and died our death, even the sins we haven't sinned yet.

But we are very easily deceived, and can sin so much that we turn to the Evil One, and take his hand, grieving away the Holy Spirit.

Which is why I started this thread! I believe it with my whole heart, but I don't want to give too much encouragement to sin by promising a new-born in Christ that they are always saved.

One can fall...but Jesus has a nice habit of picking us up again, and carrying us along the path. One can fall too many times, and Jesus will weep as He consigns you to Hell.

Please, everyone, teach the hope we have in Christ, and give no guarantees! Please!!!

Blessings,

Forrest



Page 42
Quote:

Ormly wrote:
Romans 11.25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits [opinion]

[Emphasis added]


"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory" 1 Corinthians 2:7 (KJV)



Ormly, is it not given to us to know the mysteries, and the hidden wisdom?

Quote:
"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,........To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen." Romans 16:27 (KJV) Romans 16:25 (KJV)



Is not this mystery revealed to the Church?

[color=993300]Romans 16: 25. Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26. But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:[/color]

Quote:
"And to make all men see what is the [b]fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world [/b]hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ" Ephesians 3:9 (KJV)



We in Jesus and Jesus in us, from the beginning, yet also, by faith, do we continue in Him?

And if not in faith, our only true work, do we continue in Him?

Blessings,

Forrest

Ormly wrote:
Quote:

UniqueWebRev wrote:
Quote:

Ormly wrote:
Romans 11.25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits [opinion]

[Emphasis added]


"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory" 1 Corinthians 2:7 (KJV)



Ormly, is it not given to us to know the mysteries, and the hidden wisdom?



Indeed, it is. How many know it who speak of redemption as being the whole message of Jesus Christ?

Quote:
"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,........To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen." Romans 16:27 (KJV) Romans 16:25 (KJV)



Is not this mystery revealed to the Church?


Quote:
Indeed again. Show me the Church? Where is it that I might join in such a fellowship with those seeking the Father with all their heart, soul, mind and strength. Should this not be the Church who has the Mind of God, one that seeks to understand as Paul understood; one not by hung up on making heaven the goal??



I am the Church. You are the Church. All who seek in Christ, by faith, not only salvation, but victory in this life, an overcoming of self by the work of faith in us, are the Church.

Quote:
[color=993300]Romans 16: 25. Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26. But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:[/color]



Quote:
"And to make all men see what is the [b]fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world [/b]hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ" Ephesians 3:9 (KJV)



We in Jesus and Jesus in us, from the beginning, yet also, by faith, we continue in Him.

In faith, our only true work, we continue in Him.

Quote:
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at [in] us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God [the whole content of it]? And [i]if the righteous scarcely be saved[/i], where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 1 Peter 4:17,18 (KJV)




And if not in faith, our only true work, to an establishment of Jesus in us, here on earth, day by day, HOW ELSE do we continue in Him?, not for salvation merely, but for Sonship, now, in Jesus?


Emphasis mine

Blessings,

Forrest





Orm,

I shall have to think on this, and get back to you after some sleep.

Blessings,

Forrest



Page 50
Quote:

JesusIsMyLrd wrote:
Greetings to everyone again in Jesus' name! Our surity of hope in eternal life and peace with God!

i kind-of was shocked when i saw that this thread was still going... but then i had to get over my initial reaction, and realize that this is a real doctrinal issue that is very important to, i would think, all who have studied it, and discussed it. i must confess, since the doctrine has been settled in my mind, and i have not studied it out reicently, so that is why i was kinda suprised to see it still being discussed...Now, i read a post a minute ago, i forget by who, and they say that if people think that OSAS means that we can do whatever we want, after we're saved, and then get to heaven, that is not the true doctrine of OSAS...Now, here's one thing that i found to be incorrect in my doctrinal wording...We say "lose" salvation... We mean well to say it, trying to communicate that we can give up our salvation, but we fail to say it correctly, and give a false impresion of our true thoughts, and thereby turn people off, because of our poor choice of words... After discussing it, we found out that we were using the wrong word to define our theology on the subject. He believed that we could give up our salvation, but not lose it. It just isn't something that we can wake up in the morning and find gone, but something that we can willingly give up, by allowing sin into our lives, along with compromise, etc. Well, after discussing it for a few hours, we stood corrected, and found a likeminded brother who was more correct in his wording than us!!



PRAISE BE TO GOD...SOMEBODY GOT THE DIFFERENCE!

Quote:
Here is the crux of the matter- it is not so much an issue that you can or cannot give up your salvation after you are converted, but what are you living for right now? Is it for the glory of God, or is it for your own desires?



Amen, and Amen.

Thank you for stating what I have been trying to since the day I started this thread.

Many blessings to you,

Forrest



Page 58
Quote:

story wrote:
...this question about eternal security has been a topic in my heart for some time...the unconditional love of God is absolute with out question.



Dear Brother Story,

When I opened this thread on Once Saved...Always saved???, I had a specific point in view.

The question was not whether our salvation was guaranteed if we believed, and continued to believe in Jesus, but that one could, and some do, get saved, walk with Christ, learn from the Holy Spirit, and yet still, by the deceit of the Evil One, and the allurement of sin, walk away from Jesus, and give up their salvation.

Not lose it, as it was at last pointed out, but give it up in pursuit of pleasure, and self gratification.

So many scriptures have been posted in this thread that it gets redundant, but all one need do is seek out the various writers of the New Testament, as well as the Old, on how not to fall, on how to ensure your election to Grace.

For until one's last breath is breathed in Christ, and no matter how closely one may walk with Christ, the Devourer is always waiting...always!

My initial concern, and really my only concern was that the teaching of this doctrine is dangerous to newborn Christians. I think it's dangerous to all Christians, who fall so easily in the Laodicean mode of belief...over-confident, they become half hearted followers of Christ until they follow Christ no more, but only the forms of Christianity. And then the Devil has them, unless they repent, and come back before God hardens their hearts, and prevents them from coming back.

Instead, we must do as Ormly is seeking to do, to push onward, ever learning from the Word, and from other saints, guarded by the Holy Spirit, until we have assured our sonship in Christ.

And the further one goes, the harder it is to walk away from Christ, but one is rarely tempted by the Evil One to make an about face, and run straight into a hellbent lifestyle. It happens bit by bit, until all the work we have done with the Holy Spirit leading us and teaching us is undone.

Yet, despite my many years deep in Christ, I still feel the temptation to slide back into sinful ways, instead of pursuing holiness, in mind and thought and deed. Not that I achieve it, but I seek it.

Quote:
Would God ever expel me from the kingdom? i don't think so. as far as his love for me is concerned.



Unfortunately, Story, Jesus can love you with all His heart, yet with great sadness, watch you walk in ways that will lead you into hell. He will fight to keep you, He will lift you up when you fall, and sometimes carry you when you are too weak to go on, if you are still pursuing Him. He will encourage you in all right ways. But He cannot prevent you from giving up on Him, because you are deceived by doctrines such as this that one cannot fall away from Christ. Because one can fall away, and lose everything. The Laodicean Church is a testament to this reality.

Yes, many here will immediately shout, Predestination! But only God knows who is predestined, and from our side of the equation we must strive upwards and onwards into Sonship.

Predestination and the Perserverence of the Saints are two sides of the same coin. It is a paradox, for both exist at once. But until you can understand the Paradox involved, that from outside of Time God does know who will make it to the end of the race, as Paul put it, but we do not, and must press onwards, always. We cannot look back...it is too dangerous. Jesus said that whomever looks back from following after Him is not worthy of Him. He didn't mention it was because if you look back, you are lost already. He didn't have to. Those He spoke to were Jews, and they knew the story of Lot's wife all too well.

Quote:
I believe the love of God persues the sinner all the way to the gates of hell.



Since Jesus pursued me that far, I agree with you. But had I taken one step more away from Him, I would have been lost, and He would have done nothing to stop me, for God wants a voluntary love and trust from us.

The more we seek Him, the more He responds, until we are so wrapped up our love affair with Christ that we are very unlikely to walk away.

But Lucifer has been the downfall of many who believed themselves safe.

Quote:
In other words i believe the bible teaches me God does not send people to hell, they choose to simply by denying him. which opens up the question can my free will of choices after being saved determine my destination? i must say God is just. :-)



God is just as well as merciful, but your free will in choosing Him after He has chosen you, prepared you, and made you able to receive the Word of Him is with you for your lifetime. And all of us must take care to seek Him early and often, placing our lives and our salvation by choice into His hands, and letting Him do as He pleases with us. And in that is our rest, for God will care for us. He will teach us, chastise us, test us, but also love us, all the way to heaven.

But we must always be looking at Him, and to Him, for all our work, our pleasure, our lessons, and our rest. For in Him alone is perfect peace, and joy.


Blessings,

Forrest

Use it with my blessing, my dear friend...that's what the Holy Spirit gave me that gift for!

Talk to you soon.

Forrest


Quote:

Ormly wrote:
Thank you Forrest, for such a fine post. You have easily explained so forthrightly what I have struggled with in finding new ways to say it. Shame on anyone who can find error in it. Pity them who disagree.

In Jesus,

Orm

PS. With your permission only I will cut and paste to another forum on same topic.



Page 63
Beloved Philip,

The sermon you posted is a great sermon, and it is a terrific encouragement to the spirit, which is what it is supposed to be. It is an exhortation, as is a great deal of the Bible, which is why it is so readable, over and over again.

But technically, we are not on this thread, or in this life, for what God is able to do in us, or what He is willing to do in us, but what He says He does, and what He says we do.

But because of the teachings of the doctrine of Once Saved...Always Saved, you (and I) must ask and answer some questions, and the very young in Christ do not know to answer these questions:

Who saves me? Well, Jesus, of course.

How am I saved? By faith in the Bood Covenant sealed in Jesus, on the Cross at Calvary, through the Father's Grace.

How do I remain saved? By acting on one's faith in Jesus.

How do I get faith in Jesus? He gives you the faith when you choose Him.

How do we keep our faith? The Holy Spirit tests you in your faith by asking you to please Him by obeying Him. And to be sure you understand each stage of your spiritual growth, He keeps pressing the pace until you fail.

If you fail the test, He'll keep testing you. If you keep failing long enough, He will stop picking you up, dusting you off, explaining it all again to you, and leave you in your failure.

Yes, but how then can we be saved? By repentence. Every time you sin, you repent, and try again. Repent does not mean being sorry for doing something, or changing your mind, but changing your actions.

Christ changes our hearts by giving us an infusion of faith and the work of the Holy Spirit in us when we choose Him as our Lord and Savior. We must strengthen that faith by right action. If we do not, faith gets worn out, and with it the Holy Spirit. It's called grieving the Holy Spirit, and it happens every time we sin. Sin enough, and we grieve Him away.

Now, the Holy Spirit works with us so that every right action we take strengthens our faith. Every wrong action weakens our faith. Grace covers us for a while. If we walk backward along the narrow path long enough, we will get to the point we were when Christ first found us, in and managed to attract our notice, in unbelief. We do not know where that place is, but He does.

He will keep trying to get our attention, literally jumping up and down, blinding people, allowing them to be thrown into ditches by the Devourer, or any manner of combinations of actions aimed at getting our eyes on Him.

Unfortunately, the Devourer is also the Great Deceiver, and can lead us in tiny increments just to the left and the right of Jesus, and gradually pull us around in a big circle until we end up walking the wrong way on that narrow pathway. He's also quite capable of pretending to be the Holy Spirit or Jesus, or even the Great I AM. He has a lot of power, enough to best any unwary human, without grace. And to keep the grace, we have to want it, and keep choosing it.

Which is why we have to remain wary, and not give the Deceiver any help that the Holy Spirit does not balance, and help us to overcome over and over by repeating right action, then whole clusters of right actions, then clusters of clusters of right actions.

The Holy Spirit does a great work in us, by faith, by our acting on faith, by our choosing to act on faith, until we get Home.

We have a head start in Jesus. We have a lot of help in the Holy Spirit. God wants us to succeed.

But, in our hands is the choice. It is really the only thing we have to do, and yes, God knows who makes it and who doesn't, who chooses Him and who chooses himself, or money, or any of the other things of the flesh that drag us away from God. But we do not, and He doesn't tell us.

Yes, those that are saved in Jesus can assume that they are safe, and free forever, but alas, it is not entirely true until we are dead, or translated, which ever comes first.

And that is because we are easily deceived, by ourselves, and by the Devil, and Jesus will only protect us as long as we keep getting back up, and choosing Him when we fall.

And we have to repeat tests and right actions over and over again until we are back up on the straight and narrow path.

He is the One who enables us to succeed.

Every test is a choice between ourselves and what we want, and what He wants. We are the ones who must continue in Him, and that, unfortunately is a daily choice, even an hourly or a minutely or a secondly, depending on how bad your day goes.

And although Jesus says we will not be tempted beyond our endurance, it is our endurance, not His. Yes, His strength in us, but how do we get that strength? By the continual treasuring of His blessing, of His grace, and of His sacrifice.

Once we stop treasuring it, so does He.

Please, stop teaching this deceptive doctrine. Because it is just a hairsbreadth from being correct. But that hairsbreadth is enough to get you into hell, and by your own choice, too.

Christ will and does give and give and give. But we never know when He will give us over to our own desires.

It's simple in the beginning. Choose Jesus.

It's simple every day. Choose Jesus.

We have to keep on choosing Jesus every step of the way. We don't get to rest beyond the next test, and most of the time, we do not know what the test is until we are up against the ropes, feeling the hot breath of a great carnivourous being who wants us to fail.

It is so easy for us to believe what we want to and not exactly what all the scripture says. Not part of it, but all of it.

And as we grow, we are tested on the nuances of the Eleven Commandments. And we fail. And when we fail, we have to choose again. Which way, back, or forward, rest or not rest, try or not try. Enough choices keep you going in one direction or the other.

This is our Calvary...and we have just begun to climb.


Blessings,

Forrest

Once Saved...Always Saved??? Revisited Part 8


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/7/9 0:06Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

First:
1 Peter 1:1-5 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

The in growing through circumstances and situations God will never let us outgrow our problems, because He will never be finished with our life in Christ. He will see me in my audience with Him in Glory exactly as He intended me to be, and that is Christ as me. He only has one son that He deals with and making me a son by His life in me.

We can know if we are elect; Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

The witness of my election is in me and I believe God for this election as an offspring of God. I will be judged by Paul's Gospel and that Man who God has ordained.

The Christ in us is our Judgement already.
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Before God saved me by His Son I was contrary to everything that God is. But now the Christ is in me who is the fulfillment of the human being before the foundation of the world. By the Christ in us we are no longer contrary to God. We are acceptable in the beloved, Jesus Christ.

All this had nothing to do with me. We were created to be in His likeness and understanding.
But the Satan nature took over when we were born and God knowing this elected us to complete us and that completeness as a human being who standing before Nicodemus told him he must be born again. To this day only the elect to this day believe this. Most don't even know what it means and are irritated when it is mentioned. The real me in nature and life is incomplete. The only completeness is what Christ told Nicodemus, ye must be born again to understand the things of God and that being possessing Christ. That makes us who we are. Gods plan can never be completed unless it being before the foundation of the world, we are all chosen in Christ the Lamb slain before that foundation.
That birth cannot be aborted and will not be.

Our salvation is sure, not by my works but by His that lives in me. "YOU MUST" be born again.
This is Gods thinking before time began, religion kills our this by teaching it is our responsibility to stamp our this sin nature that is in us. No there is not way but Gods way to accomplish this, it was all planned from the beginning. The Plan must get rid of the birthing of the illegitimate nature Adam and Eve gave us by the choosing the nature of Satan rather than the nature of God in Christ Jesus. To be legitimate children of God our nature must be The Father's nature, that is in Christ that is birthed in us and not we are the son's of God.

This is God's plan in Christ Jesus and He will not let it return void, those that are chosen in Christ will stay in Christ. Loose it, Yes, the old nature for the new nature of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Lord forgive me my sin and I believe in you, then the Cross has taken care of all my life and it is certain, my salvation in Christ and His Cross. Loosing it make me more important that God and His power is really not able to keep me Saved by His Grace Through the Faith of His Son and His Cross.

Loosing it make God a liar. No never can Gods choice ordained by the Christ in me is His Choice. I will never loose it and don't want to even if I could.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

For what purpose?
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

God chose me before the foundation and He is working in me and will never stop working that I be conformed to the image of His Son. Not my work but His. First born of God? Now we are being conformed to the One Who is born of Him.

Who is God?

In Christ: Phillip



_________________
Phillip

 2007/7/9 1:11Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
There is only two men who God has used to bring the Gospels man. Moses, unto the Israel of God by the Law and commandments. Paul was give his Gospel by the Man Jesus Christ who had already been to the Cross and revealed it to Paul,



Job also knew the gospel...

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/7/9 2:08Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Sis wrote:

Quote:
I cannot preach it to an unbeliever, or promise it to a babe in Christ.



According to Scripture, why would you refrain from preaching it to "babes in Christ?' What shortcommings do these believers have that might lead them astray?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/7/9 2:13Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved??? Revisited

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.



I agree. I have the same promises, and believe in them.

Quote:
First:
1 Peter 1:1-5 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



[color=993300]1Peter 1:6. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8. Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9. Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10. Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11. Searching what, or what manner of time the spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
13. Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14. As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15. But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16. Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.[/color]


Quote:
The in growing through circumstances and situations God will never let us outgrow our problems, because He will never be finished with our life in Christ. He will see me in my audience with Him in Glory exactly as He intended me to be, and that is Christ as me. He only has one son that He deals with and making me a son by His life in me.



Phillip, you are talking about what God will do in you, and in me, IF we continue to choose to keep Him first in our lives, and obey Him, and not our own desires.

God will not do these things in us if we choose to disobey Him, and begin to place ourselves first in our lives instead of Him.

Quote:
We can know if we are elect; Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

The witness of my election is in me and I believe God for this election as an offspring of God. I will be judged by Paul's Gospel and that Man who God has ordained.



Phillip, I agree with this as well. But in Paul's gospel and in Jesus are requirements for continuing, day after day, putting Him before ourselves, and obeying Him.

It is not He who fails us...it is we who can fail Him, and ourselves, by walking away from our anointing in Jesus, our salvation, and our Election.

We can choose to sin, and God will not prevent us.

God even tests and tempts us to the limit of our endurance, yet gives us a way out. But we can choose to not take the way out, and that is what is called deliberate sin.

All we need do, however, once the Holy Spirit convicts us of choosing the wrong thing, is to repent by turning back to God, and choosing the right thing.

Then, we are tested again and again, periodically throughout our life in Christ to see if we will still adhere to our first choice in Jesus, and to enable us to prove to God that we still love Jesus with that fervancy of our first love, that love which enables us to choose what He wants for us, and not what we want for us.

Quote:
The Christ in us is our Judgement already.
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Before God saved me by His Son I was contrary to everything that God is. But now the Christ is in me who is the fulfillment of the human being before the foundation of the world. By the Christ in us we are no longer contrary to God. We are acceptable in the beloved, Jesus Christ.

All this had nothing to do with me. We were created to be in His likeness and understanding.
But the Satan nature took over when we were born and God knowing this elected us to complete us and that completeness as a human being who standing before Nicodemus told him he must be born again. To this day only the elect to this day believe this. Most don't even know what it means and are irritated when it is mentioned. The real me in nature and life is incomplete. The only completeness is what Christ told Nicodemus, ye must be born again to understand the things of God and that being possessing Christ. That makes us who we are. Gods plan can never be completed unless it being before the foundation of the world, we are all chosen in Christ the Lamb slain before that foundation.
That birth cannot be aborted and will not be.



It cannot be aborted nor will be by God. Our original destiny can only be changed by ourselves, by our choices.

Quote:
Our salvation is sure, not by my works but by His that lives in me. "YOU MUST" be born again.



Yes, and to be born again, we must believe on the exchange of Jesus' redemption of us by His blood sacrifice on the cross.

But our salvation is made sure of by God though our obedience, which is our love shown to God, an action of faith, trust, and love that obedience to God's will is better than our desires to not obey.

Obedience is not a work by which we gain anything except a closer walk with Jesus because by our obedience we prove our love of Him to Him, and enables Him to do more within us to conform us to His image.

God demands our holiness, that we should be conformed to His image.

Quote:
This is Gods thinking before time began, religion kills our this by teaching it is our responsibility to stamp our this sin nature that is in us.



Nothing but death stamps out our sin nature. It remains in our bodies, but because of God's grace through Jesus, it is not counted against us unless we encourage that nature by agreeing to sin, instead of choosing obedience.

Quote:
No, there is no way but Gods way to accomplish this, it was all planned from the beginning.



Only through and by Jesus can we fulfil His plan for us, but we have to want to. He will not do it in us unless we, over and over and over again, choose Him over ourselves.

When we choose our desire over His, His plan is turned to nothing, made void, not by Him, but by our choice to not stay with Him.

Quote:
The Plan must get rid of the birthing of the illegitimate nature Adam and Eve gave us by the choosing the nature of Satan rather than the nature of God in Christ Jesus. To be legitimate children of God our nature must be The Father's nature, that is in Christ that is birthed in us and not we are the son's of God.

This is God's plan in Christ Jesus and He will not let it return void, those that are chosen in Christ will stay in Christ. Lose it, Yes, the old nature for the new nature of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Lord forgive me my sin and I believe in you, then the Cross has taken care of all my life and it is certain, my salvation in Christ and His Cross. Losing it makes me more important that God and His power is really not able to keep me Saved by His Grace Through the Faith of His Son and His Cross.



Phillip, God is more than able to save us against our will. He chooses not to do so. All we must do is believe in Him, and continue to believe in Him. And if we believe in Him, we love Him, and if we love Him, we obey Him.

Love and obedience are the only things we can give to God, beause they are the only things He does not require of any but the Elect in Christ Jesus, those that believe in Jesus, our Redeemer, and who are born again in Him.

And God does know who are those that will maintain their walk with Him, but He does not tell us who does and who doesn't.

Quote:
Losing it (our salvation) makes God a liar. No, never can God's choice ordained by the Christ in me is His Choice. I will never lose it and don't want to even if I could.



God never lies. And we cannot lose our salvation. God will never take it from us. Only we can take it from ouselves by our choices, our doubts and unbelief, wrought gradually in us by disobedience, which works in us unholiness. We do not lose our salvation, but we can give it up.

Only by choosing to walk closely with Jesus, to hear that still, small voice, and heed it, repenting of disobedience, and choosing to obey instead, can we maintain our walk with Him. We can also choose to disregard it, and thus give our salvation away.

Quote:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

For what purpose?
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

God chose me before the foundation and He is working in me and will never stop working that I be conformed to the image of His Son. Not my work but His. First born of God? Now we are being conformed to the One Who is born of Him.



Yes, and entirely by our choice. I would not tempt you, but consider what would happen if you did start giving into the desires of that sin nature that the Holy Spirit guards our hearts against? This is what the Deceiver wants to trick us into doing, and God would not allow the devil to tempt us if it were not possible for us to actually fail. Else it were not a fair testing of our devotion to God.

Quote:
Who is God?

In Christ: Phillip



Our God is Christ in us, the Hope of glory, not the guarantee of it.

If we are wrongly taught, not only about our election, and what we must do to make it sure, such as love God and obey Him, we make ourselves gods, and end up in hell.

You, and I, are not likely to give ourselves over to sin, because we love Jesus more than we love ourselves, and thus we will try to obey Him.

We can never succeed in obeying Him perfectly, and it is hard not to love our own way better than loving His way.

Our covenant with Christ is a conditional covenant, based on what He will do IF we believe on Jesus, love Him, and obey Him. He will not ask more than we are able to do, but what we can do, we must do.

Which is why I want no guarantees taught. It is too dangerous.

Teach the love of God, that He Gave Jesus for us, and claim no Election that is not complete in you until you are looking Him face to face.

For God does not guarantee each of us salvation, but only a certain number promised to Christ for going to the Cross for us. We do not know we are of that number until we are no longer in this body, but in our gloriefied one.

I have very little doubt that you will be there, beause you want to be there, and will be in obedience to God to the best of your ability. That is all He wants, but He does want that.

I have no doubt that anyone who seeks to stay with God will not be in heaven, for if we agree to what He has promised, He must fulfill it. But He will not fulfill anything in the unbelief and disobedience of those who choose their desires for their lives over His desires for our lives.

And that is why I don't want OSAS taught. It is too misleading...just misleading enough to get some who are well started in Christ all the way into Hell.


Blessings,

Forrest



_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/7/9 4:44Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved??? Revisited

Quote:

rookie wrote:
Sis wrote:

Quote:
I cannot preach it to an unbeliever, or promise it to a babe in Christ.



According to Scripture, why would you refrain from preaching it to "babes in Christ?' What shortcommings do these believers have that might lead them astray?

In Christ
Jeff




Jeff, dearheart,

What 'it'? Which 'it'? I wrote a lot of stuff, and put it all together so that others who have not read the entire thread can see all my many attempts to prove my argument and argue my proofs.

Did you take that single sentence without the context, you sneaky thing???

For usually I would never say such a thing without qualifying it.

Please give me the whole portion in context, for I do not have the memory, or the stamina to search all those pages for one line.

And I don't have these pages set up for searching...although if you continue to pull fast one's on me, I may be forced to!!! 8-)

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/7/9 5:04Profile









 Re:

Good Morning Forrest,

I've spent most of the morning reading over your posts and the many you have pulled up to repost.

Many of your questions have been answered. I must stress again, Hebrews 6 is in the middle of this letter. Before is the foundation leading up to Hebrews 6, and after is the groundwork of the New Covenant of the Finished work of Christ. If you will re-read again Hebrews verse 9 you will see the word BETTER things for you. The Author is going to lay out those better things in explaining the Covenant made in a BETTER Promise. Please do a word study on the WHOLE letter and high-light the word BETTER, that seems to be prominent through out the remainder of Hebrews.

If I were to read a letter coming from you, and just read a sentence in the middle that said..."and now she's in jail", and then run off on a tangent without knowing why she is there, if she was innocent or guilty, or if she even got out. It could be she was put there by accident...but because I didn't read beginning to end, I have chosen to fill in the blanks with my own imagination, cause a big ruckus out of my lack of further investigation. Do you see how dangerous that can be? How often we mis-quote someone, or just parts we want to. The Media does it all the time called yellow journalism, depending on what flavor of politics they side with. But when it is all said and done, the Truth will always be the Truth, and when we stand before God, He's not going to cut any slack to those who mis-quote and take His Word out of context.

Yes, it would appear people do fall away, and God has also given us the answer for this too...the started with us, they departed, because they never were to begin with. Why is that so hard to understand or even believe. It doesn't get any clearer, and it can't be any simpler.

Love in Christ
Katy-did


;-)

 2007/7/9 6:32









 Re:

Quote:

rookie wrote:
Brother Ormly quoted...

Romans 6:15-23
15 What then? Shall we commit an act of sin because we are not under law, but under grace? Certainly not.
16 Do you not know that when you surrender yourselves as slaves to any one to obey him, you are his slaves whom you obey; whether it be sin, whose end is death, or obedience, whose end is righteousness?
17 But God be thanked that you who were once the slaves of sin have obeyed from your hearts that type of teaching to which you were appointed;
18 and being set free from sin, you became the slaves of righteousness -
19 I speak in these homely figures because of the weakness of your fleshly nature - just as you once surrendered your faculties into slavery to impurity and to all lawlessness, so now you must surrender your faculties into slavery to righteousness, unto deeds of holiness.
20 For when you were the slaves of sin, you were under no subjection to righteousness.
21 What harvest-fruit then had you at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and become slaves of God, the harvest-fruit which you are reaping tends to produce holiness, and it ends is life eternal.
23 FOR THE POOR WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH, BUT THE FREE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS, OUR MASTER.

Quote:
In this section of Scripture, this verse in particular stands out to me...

16 Do you not know that when you surrender yourselves as slaves to any one to obey him, you are his slaves whom you obey; whether it be sin, whose end is death, or obedience, whose end is righteousness?

Paul points to two possibilities of whom man surrenders himself to obey another. Look to this point...'you are his slaves whom you obey; whether it be sin, whose end is death, or obedience, whose end is righteousness."

Do you notice that Paul refers to "sin" as being someone to surrender to?



Notice also that Paul was speaking to redeemed Christans, set free from the penalty of Adam's transgression; Christians set free and now able to choose once again as Adam was given to choose. However, unlike Adam, between the old and the new way of Life; between the "Way of the Cross" and self renounciation or the way of "self-centered-ness" that will still scream, "Me, Me, Me!".

Quote:
Listen to how the KJV words another Scripture speaking to the same precept which Paul states...

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Do you see this warning that God gives to Cain..."sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] HIS desire, and thou shalt rule over HIM."

I capitalized the words HIS and HIM to point out that this is Satan...

We know that God provided the means for Cain to obey.



We know nothing of the sort unless you are simply saying God gave man the ability to choose, to which I agree. Other than that, there was no confering of other "special" abilities upon anyone. Consider my first remarks.

Testing and proving God is strictly from us that our allegiance to the Father is made complete IN Him. Jesus gave Himself as our example, [and with what we needed to perform the task], if we observe His 40 day wilderness experience to learn..
Quote:
We know that God would not require of Cain what he was not able to do. God called on Cain to reject the leading of Satan and repent and turn back to Him.


In so many words, I agree. It is the same with us and we are given more that we be able to resist and self-renounce, than what Cain ...and Abel, ever had. How much harder will God be on us who do not choose the "Way of the Cross" after being set free?

Quote:
This Scripture is given to us as an example of what God expects of us too.



Indeed!

Orm



 2007/7/9 7:34









 Re:


Re; "Better things"

We know from reading that Hebrews 6.4-6 speaks of intimacy with the Father; partakers of and in Him who have learned and are learning His Character, this side of Eternity.
I know that I am working out this "learning of Him" with fear and trembling.

This goes hand and glove with Romans 6. 15-23
Orm



 2007/7/9 8:10





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