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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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PosterThread
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1944


 Re:

Hi,
In Response to below,we all die in sin but whether that sin is atoned for that is the question.
[color=000099]What is the bottom line in such a discussion?[/color]
Don't die in sin
rgds staff[

 2007/5/23 17:28Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4589


 Re:

Hi staff...

It is indeed possible to live in continual sin. What is the end of a person who has left Christ, departed the faith and returned to a life of sin?

That is the "die in sin" that I am referring to. Some individuals argue that a person who has come to Christ can never walk away. That simply isn't true. We are all being tempted to walk away daily. Do we remain -- even after a failure -- with a desire to know and fellowship with Christ? Or do we walk away and abandon our relationship for the love of this world? I know some individuals who have done the latter. Yes, they live in misery. Yet they continue to be bound in their sin.

What is the end of such an individual? Were they EVER saved?

The bottom line, in my opinion, is DO NOT DIE IN SIN.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2007/5/23 17:36Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved???

Thanks to those of you that took a stand, even if I don't agree with it.

To me, Once Saved, Always Saved, is a foolish reassurance given to those that want to do as they choose from time to time, but generally want to have Jesus.

It's a bit like having your cake and eating it too. Not possible.

Listen and hear what Jesus said on the matter to John:

[color=993300]Rev. 3:7. And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8. I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.[/color]

Jesus speaks of several things here, and although this passage is primarily used to interpret escatology, and to delineate the conditions of who will be kept from the wrath of the Day of Jacob's Trouble (The Tribulation), it is very specific about what Jesus wants from those He will save from wrath, whether on earth or at a day of judgement to come.

Most of all, He speaks of not giving in to the temptation to stay safe when persecuted; to not deny His Name, and above all, keep on keepin' on.

He warns us to hold onto what we have, that little faith in Him by which we are saved.

Salvation is conditional. We have to believe. And despite all the troubles of this life, we must continue to beat up our flagging belief in Him, and struggle onwards.

We are not talking about the broad and easy path, but one that get's harder to follow the longer you press into it. For as we persevere in our miniscule faith in Jesus, the Holy Spirit does work in us, 'growing' us up into Jesus. And when we don't persevere, the Holy Spirit waits to see what we will do. We can grieve the Spirit away by ignoring Him, and doing as we please.

It matters nothing to those on a timeline what God knew or knows outside that timeline. None of us will know for sure whether we were 'chosen', of those that were guaranteed to Jesus as His Bride until we are with Jesus. And consequently, I always wonder a little at those that are so darned sure they know what God knows.

On this topic one can quote scripture until the Rapture, and never win, because it isn't a contest of whose doctrine is right or wrong, but what Jesus wants of us.

He wants our obedience as proof of our love for Him, and for us to love one another as we love ourselves. But He knew we could never do it well, or He would not have had to come to rescue us in return for the simple belief that He is who He said He was.

And if we did have faith enough as a mustard seed, which is not much, we could move mountains. But despite my very real confidence in Jesus and His promises, and the promises throughout the Word, I haven't yet been able to move a mountain. Or kill a tree. Or heal someone.

Jesus doesn't require very much. A little belief, and the showing of some love, for His sake. But He does require that, and a great deal of day in, day out perserverance in our tiny bit of faith.

We have to walk in our faith, and act on it, as if it were something we could hold in our hands, see, and touch, when we cannot do anything of the kind. We have to act in belief that He will keep His promises, and we have to do so in a measure of confidence, that He will neither leave us or forsake us, because He said He wouldn't.

Our faith is our gift to Him. Salvation is His to us. If we take our gift back, He takes His back. If we give our faith again, He'll give us our Salvation again. But if we keep taking it away, He gets tired of our childishness, and turns us over to ourselves.

It isn't a matter of how big our faith is or how well we faithe it.

We do not start in love in our walk with Jesus. We start in faith, and even that is a gift from Him to us, to be able to believe, based on the hearing of the Word.

What we have to do with that faith is unique. We have to fall in love with the One Who gave us our tiny measure of faith.

Faith does waver and flicker in the winds and trials of this life. You can lose and gain your faith twenty times a day in the beginning. Faith is a notoriusly fickle thing. But once in love with the God who loved us enough to take our sins and die for us, that we might have His Righteousness, we can get from one day to the next, which is what He requires.

He Himself told us not to worry. Our relationship with Jesus, and our extent of life, is a one day at a time affair. We have now, and no more. Stop fussing over the details, and love Him. Just love Him. He will do all the rest.

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/24 7:09Profile
lightwalker
Member



Joined: 2007/4/27
Posts: 52
Missouri

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved???

It seems to me salvation is the end of our faith, And that true faith will lead us there. We are told that salvation is through sanctification of the spirit, by believing.. By obeying...

Just what is it that we are saved from? From hell, or are we saved from sin? If the salvation of God is salvation from sin, if the liberty we are given is liberty to obey unto righteousness
then as we have free will and choose to sin or by the power of a new life to overcome and obey the one we call Lord it seems to me we can walk away from salvation. In 1 Peter sanctification of the spirit is before obedience and only as a person obeys is the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus...

You know there are scriptures that can be used both ways and so one day I finally said " If you are, you will" and settled all the contentions with myself. But we can recieve the grace of God in vain... It becomes of no effect if we do not do as He says.. Why do you call me Lord, Lord?

2 Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; [By obedience to His truth]

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.



Hbr 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


_________________
Melody

 2007/5/25 6:49Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Perhaps the root of the issue is the answer to the question of what the words "born again", "new creature", "new nature", "son of God", and "alive in Christ" mean. If those words are applied to the converted believer, then are they real concepts or merely figurative, potential and terminable either by God or man? And if terminable are the meaning of these words such that you can move in and out of the application of them to yourself on a recurring basis dependent upon your faith level? I believe that scripture provides that my salvation is dependent on my continuing in belief in Jesus which belief is founded exclusively on faith. I believe the scriptures say that faith is a gift of God. I believe that God has made clear He will not let me fall away nor will He let anyone else or anything else snatch me from Himself. Unbelief is a lack of faith and God has given me faith and promised not to take it away. Unbelief appears to be the only way to fall away because Christ has already forgiven all other sins past, present and future. If God won't take away my faith once given then I will always believe. I don't think I've ever heard of one person who has said yes I believe that Christ died on the Cross for me and I receive Him but I reject His salvation and prefer to go to Hell.

 2007/5/25 8:37Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1944


 Re:

Hi,
Just on below by UniqueWebRev You can have you can have you're cake and eat it; its called "grace".The message to the church at Philadelphia was to a corporate body and not to an individual.Salvation is not conditional because saving grace is not conditional other than accepting Jesus.
This below is a myth by those who cant understand why people habitually sin and by those who dont understand why people work for Christ in the first place.I have been saved,I am being saved,ultimately I will be saved.I have been saved by the death of Jesus,I am being saved by the ongoing work in my life, I will be saved ultimately when I die or am raptured.

[color=0000FF]To me, Once Saved, Always Saved, is a foolish reassurance given to those that want to do as they choose from time to time, but generally want to have Jesus.[/color]

We didnt get saved in the first place because we suddenly realised that we loved Christ but we got saved for selfish reasons;we realised by the spirit where we were headed.
Again I'm not saying that you cant loose your salvation just that the arguement for and against is quite equal.
rgds Staff
p.s My understanding of the mustard seed and moving mountains is that he was talking about a mountain of unbelief .

 2007/5/26 19:24Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Staff's replay to UniqueWebRev

staff wrote:
Hi,
Just on below by UniqueWebRev: You can have, you can have your cake and eat it; its called "grace".

[b][color=660000]Sorry, Staff, you cannot deliberately keep on sinning without grieving away the Holy Spirit. Those that claim the OSAS doctrine want to be able to never trouble themselves as to their behavior, because they are always safe. But it is not true.[/color][/b]

[color=993300] Romans 1:17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;[/color]


The message to the church at Philadelphia was to a corporate body and not to an individual.

[b][color=660000]The message of the entire Bible is to the entire Corporate Church, for the edification of each member. Yes, in the message to the church at Philadelphia, Jesus was praising a few for their very little strength, and as such, is an example to us all of what He wants![/b][/color]

Salvation is not conditional because saving grace is not conditional other than accepting Jesus.

[b][color=660000]Staff, this is the condition I was talking about! Accepting Jesus means believing on Him, because of the testimony of others. And you don't stop believing without consequences.[/b][/color]

[color=993300]Romans 10: 16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


John 3:16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 17: 20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Romans 6:12. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
[/color]

[b][color=660000]We hear the Word, and by the hearing of it, receive sufficient faith to decide to believe that Christ died for our sins, and that through Him we too can be saved.

But if we stop believing, and turn away from Jesus, and act deliberately in unrighteousness, can we expect grace to cover us forever?

Those that believe that OSAS expect that any amount of sin be covered, simply because they believe in Jesus.

I am not saying that grace does not cover our sins as the Holy Spirit works within us to become perfect and holy in thought. I am saying that you cannot have a lot of deliberate sin going on, and still be working towards holiness.

Careless sin, the habitual sins of our dead bodies that we learn to 'die to', of course are covered by grace, but to sin deliberately, repeatedly, in full knowledge that what you do is sin means you are in un-belief and the covenent is broken.

And this is the position of many who believe that once they have tossed their sins on Jesus, they can continue to sin perpetually, and Jesus will still cover it. Walking in deliberate sin is un-belief, and breaks the covenent.

How many times has God said "Return to me, and I will return to you!"[/b][/color]

This below is a myth by those who can't understand why people habitually sin and by those who don't understand why people work for Christ in the first place. I have been saved,I am being saved, ultimately I will be saved.I have been saved by the death of Jesus,I am being saved by the ongoing work in my life, I will be saved ultimately when I die or am raptured.

[b][color=660000]And you work with the Holy Spirit to overcome your sins as well, do you not? You know you cannot be perfect until your body is glorified, and you strive for holiness as you walk the straight and narrow path. You were/are/am/will be saved because you still walk that path, and have not turned away to the broad and easy pathway to destruction.[/b][/color]

We didnt get saved in the first place because we suddenly realised that we loved Christ but we got saved for selfish reasons;we realised by the spirit where we were headed.

[b][color=660000]Yes, quite true, and I'm very relieved that I was called, heard the gospel, and decided to believe so I would get the good package, not the bad package of eternity. And I'm glad you did too.[/b][/color]

Again I'm not saying that you can't lose your salvation just that the argument for and against is quite equal.

[b][color=660000]No, the cases are not equal...they are opposites. You can believe and continue believing and be saved and continue being saved. And continued belief keeps the Holy Spirit working with you to the last day on earth, towards holiness in our hearts and minds, not in our bodies. Or you can change your heart and mind, sin in your heart and mind, and your ultimate destiny is changed as well.

Once Saved, Always saved, no matter what you do, is a lie. You cannot have both righteousness through belief and unrighteousness through unbelief at the same time. Or you are having your cake and eating it too.

Blessings,

Forrest[/b][/color]

p.s My understanding of the mustard seed and moving mountains is that he was talking about a mountain of unbelief.

[b][color=660000]Sorry, I read the Bible quite literally, for Jesus promised a great deal in that discussion.[/color][/b]

[color=993300]Matthew 17:14. And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15. Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18. And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20. And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.[/color]


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/27 2:43Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi,at what point in the process does man become the center of his salvation? it confuses this old man when we preach salvation through the blood of Jesus applied by the Holy Spirit and then talk of being saved by our own abilities to maintain some form of perfection lest we loose this loan or gift.be sure your sins will find you out.many christians are in jail and in hospitals because of sins.this is sewing and reaping. butif Jesus is the savior then He alone can save and keep and glorify(when i see the blood i will passover you) He( the Father does not even look at you ,He looks at the blood of the Lamb...the jews at the first passover could have had egyptian first born in their houses and the blood would have saved them. we have esteemed ourselves to highly to think we can do anything that is more important than the blood of Christ that was shed for us.the tree adam ate was the tree of the knowlege of GOOD and evil only trusting in the finished work of the cross will save and keep and deliver and anything else is another gospel.jimp

 2007/5/27 6:25Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1944


 Re:

Hi Again,
In regards to below this is again part of the myth about sin in the church and its affects.I am not claiming osas but that both sides of the debate have their merit and that "grace" knowing you are saved despite ongoing sin is an encouragement rather than you're veiw that grace is a license to sin.
The Holy Spirit is indwelt and it takes alot for that to change.The holy spirit can be grieved but not away.When Jesus died for me all my sins were in the future,he knew my sins before I did and still saved me.You can have unrighteousness and believe.
[color=000099]Sorry, Staff, you cannot deliberately keep on sinning without grieving away the Holy Spirit. Those that claim the OSAS doctrine want to be able to never trouble themselves as to their behavior, because they are always safe. But it is not true.[/color]
rgds staff

 2007/5/27 8:31Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Salvation is not a [b]thing[/b] that we must maintain, it is a relationsip!

Ech person in a marriage must [b]do[/b] there part to [b]maintain[/b] the relationsip.

If one member of a marriage moves awy from the other and never writes or calls or anything for that matter of marriage, the relationsip ends ond only become a peace of paper called a marriage license.
However, this is the merriage between God and man, that they may know Jesus, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom God has sent.[b]John 17:3[/b]
If one is not continualy getting to know Jesus, what do you think?

One can not denie that they were once saved, because the merriage license prooves that, however, if one dies in the state of that marriage relationsip being broken, what do you think?

 2007/5/27 10:48Profile





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