SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Evan Roberts Quote
See Opportunities to Serve with SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | 40 | 41 | 42 | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50 | 51 | 52 | 53 | 54 | 55 | 56 | 57 | 58 | 59 | 60 | 61 | 62 | 63 | 64 | 65 | 66 | 67 | 68 | 69 | 70 | 71 | 72 | 73 | 74 | 75 | 76 | 77 | 78 | 79 | 80 | 81 | 82 | 83 | 84 | 85 | 86 | 87 Next Page )
PosterThread
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Ormly quoted...

Romans 6:15-23
15 What then? Shall we commit an act of sin because we are not under law, but under grace? Certainly not.
16 Do you not know that when you surrender yourselves as slaves to any one to obey him, you are his slaves whom you obey; whether it be sin, whose end is death, or obedience, whose end is righteousness?
17 But God be thanked that you who were once the slaves of sin have obeyed from your hearts that type of teaching to which you were appointed;
18 and being set free from sin, you became the slaves of righteousness -
19 I speak in these homely figures because of the weakness of your fleshly nature - just as you once surrendered your faculties into slavery to impurity and to all lawlessness, so now you must surrender your faculties into slavery to righteousness, unto deeds of holiness.
20 For when you were the slaves of sin, you were under no subjection to righteousness.
21 What harvest-fruit then had you at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and become slaves of God, the harvest-fruit which you are reaping tends to produce holiness, and it ends is life eternal.
23 FOR THE POOR WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH, BUT THE FREE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS, OUR MASTER.




In this section of Scripture, this verse in particular stands out to me...

16 Do you not know that when you surrender yourselves as slaves to any one to obey him, you are his slaves whom you obey; whether it be sin, whose end is death, or obedience, whose end is righteousness?


Paul points to two possibilities of whom man surrenders himself to obey another. Look to this point...'you are his slaves whom you obey; whether it be sin, whose end is death, or obedience, whose end is righteousness."

Do you notice that Paul refers to "sin" as being someone to surrender to?

Listen to how the KJV words another Scripture speaking to the same precept which Paul states...


Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Do you see this warning that God gives to Cain..."sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] HIS desire, and thou shalt rule over HIM."

I capitalized the words HIS and HIM to point out that this is Satan...

We know that God provided the means for Cain to obey. We know that God would not require of Cain what he was not able to do. God called on Cain to reject the leading of Satan and repent and turn back to Him.

This Scripture is given to us as an example of what God expects of us too.

In Christ
Jeff



_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/7/8 21:46Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"""Hebrews 3&4 say, they were preached the Gospel as we, yet because they did not have FAITH, they did not enter in.

You stated that they did not enter in because of the hardness of their hearts...this is true. What provision did God give to those in the OT to enable them to have soft hearts?"""

When did faith, that is the Faith of Jesus Christ, That leads us to salvation, come?

God gave them in the old testament Kings and the Law and commandments through Moses.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Act 24:24 And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

Paul received Faith from the Lord Jesus Christ and that Faith is the Faith which came that we might be saved. Twice in the old testament faith is mentioned but not the faith of Jesus Christ unto salvation given to those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Then Paul writes by the Holy Spirit; Galatians 2:14-16 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Then the finish of what gives us soft hearts and the capacity to have The Faith of Christ in us unto all that God has for those that are in Christ Jesus; Galatians 2:19-20 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

From my first breath from my mother's womb, I was called to be in Christ, and it pleased God to reveal His son in me. Like Paul Christ is my Life and my all in all. This revelation has been revealed in me by the Faith of Jesus Christ and His life in me.

There is only two men who God has used to bring the Gospels man. Moses, unto the Israel of God by the Law and commandments. Paul was give his Gospel by the Man Jesus Christ who had already been to the Cross and revealed it to Paul, which had nothing to do with the Gospel of Moses, but Paul's Gospel which fulfills the Word of God unto Faith Salvation and Oneness with Christ, and to the son's of God being readied for the Father's House where son's are found in only 1/5 of the Bible in which Jesus Christ is revealed unto all that Christ in us is. Glory.
The other 4/5 are for the old testament people of Israel unto the preparing the world for the coming of Christ. They failed as Gods chosen people and set aside to be in love with the Father and even killed the Son of God. We are in Christ by the Father by the Christ in us who is the only Lover of the Father and by Him in us God is receiving The Love He wants, that is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

IN Christ: Phillip




_________________
Phillip

 2007/7/8 22:38Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3365
Texas

 Re:

Wow must be every scripture in the Bible on this thread, I feel like I have read the one year Bible in one week. :-)

Not making light of the Word but some of you must have some comments from the heart here, and to someone that is not saved they could probably relate better to something from the heart.

Scriptures are great don't get me wrong, but the knowledge and wisdom that God has given some of us
should also be spilled out here from the heart for the folks that don't understand the Word that well, remember there are folks that come here that are reading these threads that are not even on milk yet. Just a thought, carry on what's this round 4?


_________________
Bill

 2007/7/8 23:02Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved??? Revisited

Brothers and Sisters,

Let's get back on topic, for this is a topic that people want to discuss in depth.

In 70 odd pages, all the scriptures for and against the doctrine of OSAS have been posted.

I, due to my limited strength, have been posting only commentary for that last few posts I've made.

Oddly, I want to change the angle of what has been posted, and direct a new way at looking at things on this topic, lest we all become wedded to our specific viewpoints and scriptures.

For the fun of discussion, and for a good search on this topic, I would like to have everyone discuss the topic by comparing the relevant scriptures in their own posts, by dissecting my posts, since I started this discussion, and have been fostering it, as if arguing not with one another, but with what I have stated.

In this way, we can keep on subject, and everyone can give their dissertaions and proofs as they attempt to disprove me or vindicate me.

I might even step in myself, with some scriptures that tie things together, or to point to scriptures and points already made.

If each of us can take but one of the many points of OSAS at a time that I am very worried about, and all the beliefs that accrue to those points, and tear them apart for each others benefit, I think we will really do something unique.

I do not like the preaching of OSAS because it can direct people into resting on their laurels, and God's grace, while the Devil is out and about trying very hard to get us to be complacent, and Laodicean.

I doubt that anyone participating on SI is in doubt of their salvation, and do not think they would ever stop trying to do as the Holy Spirit asks them to do, regardless of how they feel about the real ability for Jesus to keep us in Him. We count on that grace when we fail.

The question really becomes, if Jesus does all the work, why do we even have to obey Him? Why do we have to listen to the Holy Spirit's guidance and teaching? Why are we tested over and over? Why does it say in the Bible that we must avoid falling away?

Predestination is not in doubt here, for God indeed knows all things. Perserverence is in doubt here, for God does not tell us who is predestined, because, according to the Bible, He wants us to persevere, and overcome. All of use sense that, and do that, even if we do not exactly know why.

Let's find out!

And to all, please be cautious in your postings, for many others than those who participate read what we are saying here, and I would very much appreciate that we give a good witness of Christ, even in heated arguments, and touchy subjects. Be gentle with one another, but seek the truth, in all humility.

I beg all your pardons for not re-posting scriptures that you yourselves know by heart. My views are below, from all my postings on this thread, and it's a lot, so I apologize for length. I have also placed the pages, so that one can see the line of arguments I was replying to.

Please, re-read them, and tear them apart, looking for scriptures to confirm and to deny what I have said.

Blessings,

Forrest

Edit: PLEASE Keep me in context with myself!!!!



Page 1

I am placing this on it's own thread, as I think the question must be explored.

Quote:

staff wrote:
.... but below is just your own personal belief their is as much arguement for "once saved always saved "as to the arguement of you can lose your're salvation...I am not saying that sinning has no consequences,nor I am saying that you can't lose rewards but I am saying "where sin abounds grace abounds even more" and it takes alot to lose your're salvation if at all possible.
rgds staff



Dear Staff,

Once saved, always saved, is true for those that move forward in the Holy Spirit, growing in grace, and ripening into spiritual maturity.

But that Grace is very easily lost.

[color=993300]Romans 2
1. Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
[u]5. But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;[/u]
6. Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8. But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9. Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10. But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11. For there is no respect of persons with God.
12. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13. (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.[/color]

Grace alone saves us through Jesus Christ, but alas, it is so easy to become complacent, and to stop walking in faith.

At that point, one become particularly vulnerable to the Evil One, who with lies and temptations, will seek to turn the complacent away from their first love of Jesus.

And one cannot stand still even in grace. Unless one walks forward, strengthening the faith walk, and growing in gifts of the Holy Spirit, and reaping the fruit there of, in patience, kindness, humility, endurance, joy and love, sowing into other lives what has been sown into yours, you become on the the foolish virgins, the unprofitable servent, cast into utter darkness, and judged and found wanting at the end of the Tribulation.

[color=993300]Matthew 25
1. Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4. But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
14. For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16. Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19. After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25. And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27. Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36. Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38. When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39. Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40. And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43. I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45. Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
[/color]

It is not enough to be saved, and live under grace. Yes, there are only the laws of love to follow, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to obtain, and use, to the glory of God.

But once you stand still in Jesus, you are in grave danger.

Yes, it may be possible to still receive one's salvation and do nothing over and above what Christ has done, for all our righteousness is in Him.

But the moment one stops going forward, you become prey for the one that seeks to devour you.

The devil is wise in the way of decit, and confusion. And oh, how easy it is to be turned around in your path, and find yourself, convinced that grace will save you, as you walk farther and farther away from Jesus.

And if you turn your back on the Lord, not in the foolish innocence of the newly born in Christ, but of the self satisfied Laodicean Church, who believes they are forever safe, no matter that they only worship themselves and their desires, are they not at risk of grieving the Holy Spirit away completely, and having their consciences seared?

Even pastors and teachers can lead people astray, else the state of the Christian Church in America would not be crumbling. And those that do not seek their Bibles early and often, who do not pray, who do not seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and the protection of God and His angels, can they not go beyond grace into depravity?

Do not speak from opinion only, but search the scriptures.

And believe me, I would be delighted to be proved wrong.

Blessings,

Forrest


Page 4

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.




Oddly, Christian brought up in his first sentence of what he quoted what I see as the eternal answer to OSAS.

hmmhmm wrote:
[u][i][b][color=0066FF]Rev 3:5 He that overcometh,[/u] the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.[/color][/b][/i]


To those brought up in the doctrine of OSAS, their complacency is frightening. I have friends, genuine, forward walking Christians, who still believe that OSAS is enough for those who turn their back on Jesus, and walk away.

I did it myself in my young years, but I knew next to nothing, and Jesus held on tightly to me, until I could have knowledge, and eventually decide to walk by that knowledge. That is not OSAS, but Christ's mercy and grace.

Do we enter in here to the concept of Prevenient Grace, where God knows who will be saved, and will interfere to a degree to make sure those He knows about are saved will stay saved? Or is it merely Jesus's mercy to take the ignorant and weak, and strengthen them, and hold them closely, even while they sin egregiously against Him?

It is plain that one can have faith, and give it up. That's in Jesus's parable of the sower and the seeds.

[color=993300]Matthew 13
1. The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2. And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3. And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4. And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5. Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6. And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8. But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
---
18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.[/color]

But if we at SI who are all presumably walking forward in grace, seeking to persevere, to bring forth fruit for the kingdom, can have so many views, and none have come to a concensus even on the exact scriptures that prove one side or the other, I am not surprised to find many thousands who believe OSAS, and do nothing in their initial belief but that belief is enough, and they can rest on their laurels.

Can we even find and agree on the definitive, unquestionable, proof that OSAS is not true, because we must walk forward in grace, and persevere unto the end?

To revive our churches, we must know for sure, examining the scriptures until all are convinced.
And if all cannot be convinced, then something is dreadfully wrong, and I refuse to believe it is the Bible.

I thank you for all your opinions, but in this matter, proof is required, and acceptable proof.

Oh, I know there are some who will not accept even the scriptures as evidence, but I would like to see Krispy's statement, and other's, backed by the scriptures.

I am not a OSAS person, but many I know are, and I fear for them. And so should we all.

Blessings,

Forrest
Once Saved...Always Saved??? Revisited part 1


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/7/8 23:55Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved??? Revisited

Page 4
Actually I agree - It cannot anything quirky...God is too stable.

And I know from experience how long Jesus sticks in with you.

What troubles me is not 'Grace saves you' alone, for I believe that. It's just that if you turn away from God, as I have seen many do, assuming they are still covered by grace, you could end up in hell.

I wish people would talk OSAS on this point alone.

Blessings,

Forrest


Page 4

Quote:

tjservant wrote:
Quote:
Who is the brethern he is talking to?



Quote:
I'm fairly sure that James was writing to a synagogue that may have had unbelievers in it. There were probably those that had not converted to Christ "among them."



I don't see how that effects what I posted, or what I said about it...would you explain?

Thank you.



Frankly TJ, I don't know who answered your original post about James 5:19-20, but the whole of the matter is laid out here:

[color=993300]James 5:10. Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
12. But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
13. Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14. Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17. Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
19. Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20. Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.[/color]

The quote is to the brethern at the Temple in Jerusalem, where James almost always was, and was about bringing a Jew from the side of the Law into the belief of Grace.

The reason that James survived at all in Jerusalem is that he did not abate one iota from the Law in practice, but taught that the works of the law should flow from Faith in Salvation through Grace, for after all, the Law was not a failsafe situation, and Jesus is.

Hope I explained enough, considering I looked only at the scriptures.

Blessings,

Forrest



Page 6
Is everyone in agreement then, that all those living (and above the age of accountability) who are in an active relationship with Christ, known as 'saved', must maintain a continous walk forward in that relationship in faith, or lose that salvation?

[color=993300]Matthew 13;18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.[/color]


Blessings,

Forrest


Page 6
Quote:

UniqueWebRev wrote:
Quote:
Is everyone in agreement then, that all those living (and above the age of accountability) who are in an active relationship with Christ, known as 'saved', must maintain a continous walk forward in that relationship in faith, or lose that salvation?



Mahoney wrote:
Forrest,

I absolutely disagree! I disagree because your statement is entirely too subjective...what does "continuous walk forward" mean? What does that look like?



I will re-quote myself with emphasis on the particular words that you all might see that what I said was not subjective at all, but under a specific condition.

[color=0000ff]Is everyone in agreement then, that [b][u]all those living[/b][/u] (and above the age of accountability) [b][u]who are in an active relationship with Christ[/b][/u], known as 'saved', [b][u]must maintain a continous walk forward in that relationship in faith[/b][/u], or lose that salvation?[/color]

Is not faith enjoined on us as a continuous condition of salvation, the breach of which, is unbelief, and therefore, non-relationship with Christ?

Blessings,

Forrest


Page 7
I care nothing about works.

I care nothing about how one gets saved.

I am asking, if you stop believing, after you have believed, are you still saved. Does grace extend that far?

For that is what once saved, always saved is stating.

And telling me that if someone stops believing, they were never saved in the first place is not to the point.

OSAS says once saved, always saved. If it not's true in and of itself, please, just say so!

Blessings,

Forrest


Page 8
Thanks to those of you that took a stand, even if I don't agree with it.

To me, Once Saved, Always Saved, is a foolish reassurance given to those that want to do as they choose from time to time, but generally want to have Jesus.

It's a bit like having your cake and eating it too. Not possible.

Listen and hear what Jesus said on the matter to John:

[color=993300]Rev. 3:7. And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8. I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.[/color]

Jesus speaks of several things here, and although this passage is primarily used to interpret escatology, and to delineate the conditions of who will be kept from the wrath of the Day of Jacob's Trouble (The Tribulation), it is very specific about what Jesus wants from those He will save from wrath, whether on earth or at a day of judgement to come.

Most of all, He speaks of not giving in to the temptation to stay safe when persecuted; to not deny His Name, and above all, keep on keepin' on.

He warns us to hold onto what we have, that little faith in Him by which we are saved.

Salvation is conditional. We have to believe. And despite all the troubles of this life, we must continue to beat up our flagging belief in Him, and struggle onwards.

We are not talking about the broad and easy path, but one that get's harder to follow the longer you press into it. For as we persevere in our miniscule faith in Jesus, the Holy Spirit does work in us, 'growing' us up into Jesus. And when we don't persevere, the Holy Spirit waits to see what we will do. We can grieve the Spirit away by ignoring Him, and doing as we please.

It matters nothing to those on a timeline what God knew or knows outside that timeline. None of us will know for sure whether we were 'chosen', of those that were guaranteed to Jesus as His Bride until we are with Jesus. And consequently, I always wonder a little at those that are so darned sure they know what God knows.

On this topic one can quote scripture until the Rapture, and never win, because it isn't a contest of whose doctrine is right or wrong, but what Jesus wants of us.

He wants our obedience as proof of our love for Him, and for us to love one another as we love ourselves. But He knew we could never do it well, or He would not have had to come to rescue us in return for the simple belief that He is who He said He was.

And if we did have faith enough as a mustard seed, which is not much, we could move mountains. But despite my very real confidence in Jesus and His promises, and the promises throughout the Word, I haven't yet been able to move a mountain. Or kill a tree. Or heal someone.

Jesus doesn't require very much. A little belief, and the showing of some love, for His sake. But He does require that, and a great deal of day in, day out perserverance in our tiny bit of faith.

We have to walk in our faith, and act on it, as if it were something we could hold in our hands, see, and touch, when we cannot do anything of the kind. We have to act in belief that He will keep His promises, and we have to do so in a measure of confidence, that He will neither leave us or forsake us, because He said He wouldn't.

Our faith is our gift to Him. Salvation is His to us. If we take our gift back, He takes His back. If we give our faith again, He'll give us our Salvation again. But if we keep taking it away, He gets tired of our childishness, and turns us over to ourselves.

It isn't a matter of how big our faith is or how well we faithe it.

We do not start in love in our walk with Jesus. We start in faith, and even that is a gift from Him to us, to be able to believe, based on the hearing of the Word.

What we have to do with that faith is unique. We have to fall in love with the One Who gave us our tiny measure of faith.

Faith does waver and flicker in the winds and trials of this life. You can lose and gain your faith twenty times a day in the beginning. Faith is a notoriusly fickle thing. But once in love with the God who loved us enough to take our sins and die for us, that we might have His Righteousness, we can get from one day to the next, which is what He requires.

He Himself told us not to worry. Our relationship with Jesus, and our extent of life, is a one day at a time affair. We have now, and no more. Stop fussing over the details, and love Him. Just love Him. He will do all the rest.

Blessings,

Forrest
Once Saved...Always Saved??? Revisited Part 2


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/7/8 23:56Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved??? Revisited

Page 8
staff wrote:
Hi,
Just on below by UniqueWebRev: You can have, you can have your cake and eat it; its called "grace".

[b][color=660000]Sorry, Staff, you cannot deliberately keep on sinning without grieving away the Holy Spirit. Those that claim the OSAS doctrine want to be able to never trouble themselves as to their behavior, because they are always safe. But it is not true.[/color][/b]

[color=993300] Romans 1:17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;[/color]


The message to the church at Philadelphia was to a corporate body and not to an individual.

[b][color=660000]The message of the entire Bible is to the entire Corporate Church, for the edification of each member. Yes, in the message to the church at Philadelphia, Jesus was praising a few for their very little strength, and as such, is an example to us all of what He wants![/b][/color]

Salvation is not conditional because saving grace is not conditional other than accepting Jesus.

[b][color=660000]Staff, this is the condition I was talking about! Accepting Jesus means believing on Him, because of the testimony of others. And you don't stop believing without consequences.[/b][/color]

[color=993300]Romans 10: 16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


John 3:16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 17: 20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Romans 6:12. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
[/color]

[b][color=660000]We hear the Word, and by the hearing of it, receive sufficient faith to decide to believe that Christ died for our sins, and that through Him we too can be saved.

But if we stop believing, and turn away from Jesus, and act deliberately in unrighteousness, can we expect grace to cover us forever?

Those that believe that OSAS expect that any amount of sin be covered, simply because they believe in Jesus.

I am not saying that grace does not cover our sins as the Holy Spirit works within us to become perfect and holy in thought. I am saying that you cannot have a lot of deliberate sin going on, and still be working towards holiness.

Careless sin, the habitual sins of our dead bodies that we learn to 'die to', of course are covered by grace, but to sin deliberately, repeatedly, in full knowledge that what you do is sin means you are in un-belief and the covenent is broken.

And this is the position of many who believe that once they have tossed their sins on Jesus, they can continue to sin perpetually, and Jesus will still cover it. Walking in deliberate sin is un-belief, and breaks the covenent.

How many times has God said "Return to me, and I will return to you!"[/b][/color]

This below is a myth by those who can't understand why people habitually sin and by those who don't understand why people work for Christ in the first place. I have been saved,I am being saved, ultimately I will be saved.I have been saved by the death of Jesus,I am being saved by the ongoing work in my life, I will be saved ultimately when I die or am raptured.

[b][color=660000]And you work with the Holy Spirit to overcome your sins as well, do you not? You know you cannot be perfect until your body is glorified, and you strive for holiness as you walk the straight and narrow path. You were/are/am/will be saved because you still walk that path, and have not turned away to the broad and easy pathway to destruction.[/b][/color]

We didnt get saved in the first place because we suddenly realised that we loved Christ but we got saved for selfish reasons; we realised by the spirit where we were headed.

[b][color=660000]Yes, quite true, and I'm very relieved that I was called, heard the gospel, and decided to believe so I would get the good package, not the bad package of eternity. And I'm glad you did too.[/b][/color]

Again I'm not saying that you can't lose your salvation just that the argument for and against is quite equal.

[b][color=660000]No, the cases are not equal...they are opposites. You can believe and continue believing and be saved and continue being saved. And continued belief keeps the Holy Spirit working with you to the last day on earth, towards holiness in our hearts and minds, not in our bodies. Or you can change your heart and mind, sin in your heart and mind, and your ultimate destiny is changed as well.

Once Saved, Always saved, no matter what you do, is a lie. You cannot have both righteousness through belief and unrighteousness through unbelief at the same time. Or you are having your cake and eating it too.

Blessings,

Forrest[/b][/color]

p.s My understanding of the mustard seed and moving mountains is that he was talking about a mountain of unbelief.

[b][color=660000]Sorry, I read the Bible quite literally, for Jesus promised a great deal in that discussion.[/color][/b]

[color=993300]Matthew 17:14. And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15. Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18. And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20. And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.[/color]



Page 9
jimp wrote:
hi,at what point in the process does man become the center of his salvation? it confuses this old man when we preach salvation through the blood of Jesus applied by the Holy Spirit and then talk of being saved by our own abilities to maintain some form of perfection lest we loose this loan or gift.be sure your sins will find you out.many christians are in jail and in hospitals because of sins.this is sewing and reaping. butif Jesus is the savior then He alone can save and keep and glorify(when i see the blood i will passover you) He( the Father does not even look at you ,He looks at the blood of the Lamb...the jews at the first passover could have had egyptian first born in their houses and the blood would have saved them. we have esteemed ourselves to highly to think we can do anything that is more important than the blood of Christ that was shed for us.the tree adam ate was the tree of the knowlege of GOOD and evil only trusting in the finished work of the cross will save and keep and deliver and anything else is another gospel.jimp




Jimp, all I am saying is that you must believe, and go on believing, love and go on loving, or you break your end of the covenent that Jesus died to give us.

Those that believe in the Once Saved, Always Saved position are attempting to say that a one time decision for Christ cannot be unmade by future beliefs and actions.

And you are not old!

Blessings,

Forrest


Page 9
Quote:

staff wrote:
Hi Again,
In regards to below this is again part of the myth about sin in the church and its affects.I am not claiming osas but that both sides of the debate have their merit and that "grace" knowing you are saved despite ongoing sin is an encouragement rather than you're veiw that grace is a license to sin.
The Holy Spirit is indwelt and it takes alot for that to change.The holy spirit can be grieved but not away.When Jesus died for me all my sins were in the future,he knew my sins before I did and still saved me.You can have unrighteousness and believe.
[color=000099]Sorry, Staff, you cannot deliberately keep on sinning without grieving away the Holy Spirit. Those that claim the OSAS doctrine want to be able to never trouble themselves as to their behavior, because they are always safe. But it is not true.[/color]
rgds staff



Staff, I am not talking about the normal, unable to keep sinning problem that we have as part of our human condition. That is covered by grace, or we would none of us be saved at all.

I am speaking about an assumption that Once Saved, Always Saved promotes, is the idea that a single decision cannot be undone by future actions of deliberate sin being done in the mistaken belief that the Holy Spirit will hang on forever.

He wants to, but under certain circumstances He can't.

I know the passage you speak of:

[color=993300]17. This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18. Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19. Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20. But ye have not so learned Christ;
21. If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27. Neither give place to the devil.
28. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32. And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.[/color]

Unfortunately, we can turn away from God, and end up grieving the Holy Spirit away, not because He wants to leave, but because of our actions:

[color=993300]16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30. Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31. Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.[/color]

One can take the devils's mark after taking grace from Christ, and you need not be in the Tribulation to fall that far. Alas, people are doing it even as we speak, starting out in the faith, then turning away from God.

No, the Holy Spirit will not leave us of His choice...but we can leave Him, and consequently force Him away.

Blessings,

Forrest


Page 9
Quote:

Logic wrote:
Salvation is not a [b]thing[/b] that we must maintain, it is a relationsip!

Each person in a marriage must [b]do[/b] there part to [b]maintain[/b] the relationsip.

If one member of a marriage moves awy from the other and never writes or calls or anything for that matter of marriage, the relationsip ends ond only become a peace of paper called a marriage license.
However, this is the merriage between God and man, that they may know Jesus, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom God has sent.[b]John 17:3[/b]
If one is not continualy getting to know Jesus, what do you think?

One can not denie that they were once saved, because the merriage license prooves that, however, if one dies in the state of that marriage relationsip being broken, what do you think?



This is the difficulty with the Once Saved, Always Saved position. It assumes that WE cannot sin so much, so badly, so deliberately, with such malice and viciousness that the Holy Spirit is forced away from us.

To me, telling anyone that Once Saved, Always Saved is giving them permission to sin, instead of saying, God will never leave you if you do not leave Him, and leave Him, and leave Him, until God himself is so sickened by your behavior that He sadly turns you over to yourself, and lets you go.

Yes, our tendency to sin, our sin nature, is covered. But there is still that straight and narrow path to be walked, and if you don't go forward on it, you may find that you have turned around and gone back too far.

Having been such a scandalous sinner in my day, I wonder that Jesus hung on as long as He did, except that somehow, He managed to sneak enough word into me when I wasn't looking, that I would get up, dust myself off, and try again to stay on the path. And then I'd fall, and we would start over again, though much of the time I didn't even know it was going on.

I went dangerously far from God. I don't recommend it...The devil was a hair's breadth away from winning in my life.

Yes, Jesus kept trying as long as I kept on responding. I don't want to think of what might have happened if I had said 'no' one too many times.

Blessings,

Forrest
Quote:


Page 9
Christinyou wrote:
"What I mean is this
I was saved-justification
I am being saved-sanctification
I shall be saved-glorification"

Conformation;

2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

Delivered, justified. Doth deliver, sanctification. Will yet deliver, glorification.

Notice this is not a question but a statement of fact.

For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
2Cr 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

In Christ: Phillip



Phillip, my dear one,

I am worried about the Laodiceans, who are so lukewarm about Jesus that He says he will vomit them out of His mouth.

Jesus talks about going back to their first love of Him, their initial belief not withstanding.

[color=993300]Rev. 3: 14. And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18. I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.[/color]

Jesus talks about overcoming, not about initial belief. This is about the straight and narrow path, and walking in it, working with the Holy Spirit, every day until death or the Rapture. Jesus speaks of repentence, not initial belief.

It says nothing about how the Laodiceans will be saved because they once believed. The problem is, they no longer believe enough to repent, or even acknowledge their sins! And hence, Jesus is nauseous at the very idea of them.

I am not talking about works of any kind but what Jesus tells us to do. He wants us to believe on Him, and love Him enough to walk the straight and narrow path with the help of the Holy Spirit. And if we love Him, and fall, He'll even pick us up and carry us for a time.

All of this relates to holiness of the mind and heart, and the consistant striving to get to Jesus. And if you don't keep going toward Him, you are going away from Him. And you can go too far away, just like the Laodiceans.

Yes, we can only repent because of His work in us, stay on the straight and narrow path by His living in us. But if we no longer believe, and will not repent, the original covenent is broken.

Blessings,

Forrest


Page 10
Quote:

lightwalker wrote:
Can you lose your salvation? Or do you have to walk away? One man's opinion

God's love is a MORAL love and a conditional love. "Relationship love" is NOT unconditional!
Many have taught that the love of God is an "unconditional" love in relationships: That we are to "love" those who have violated us without seeking justice or protection from that violation. "Unconditional love" as currently taught by the church imprisons people in bad marriages.


By Stephen Gola - Excerpt from the article on Love.
Word Picture:

God is love (1John 4:8), God is moral, God is just, and God does only righteous acts.

Love Himself sits upon a throne of authority.

His throne is positioned upon a foundation built of justice and righteousness.

This is WHO love is! He cannot vary in any way from being just, true and doing what is righteous.

This is WHY God cannot just "let things go—sweep them under the proverbial rug"—it is a legal thing. Because He is love, He is moral. Because He is moral, He is just. Because He is just, He always does righteous acts. Because this is who He is and we are made in His image, He gives us these same moral obligations through His commandments to guide our lives. This is the basis of a great relationship: whether that relationship is between man and man or God and man.

God loves everyone—sinner and saint alike! God who is Love: "demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). Even though God is love, He is just, righteous and true. Because He is just, righteous and true, it becomes a legal matter which demands a right response. If we do not respond to God's legal demands of justice we will not be legally "justified by His blood... (and)...saved from wrath..." (Romans 5:9). Therefore, we will endure the punishment of wrath because we have rejected righteousness, justice and truth.

Because God is love, He requires people to love, to be just, moral and true. Those who order their lives in the realm of hate, injustice, immorality with deceptions and lies will reap the penalty (or fruit) thereof. Those who order their lives in the realm of love, justice, morality and truth will reap the blessings (or fruit) thereof. Everybody is treated fairly—you reap exactly what you sow—no more, no less! Living a "holy" life is living out love, justice, righteousness and truth, simultaneously. This is what the Scriptures mean in 1 Peter 1:14-16: Be "as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts (strong pressures of the flesh)...but... be holy for I am holy."

Love without morals is to live under tyranny—which is an abuse of authority.

Love has boundaries, love has morals, and love is conditional!

All Rights Reserved, © Copyright 2006 by Stephen Gola

(All Scriptures taken from the King James Version Bible or the New King James version.)

******ALL TEACHINGS MAY BE USED WITHOUT PERMISSION TO TEACH AND TRAIN GOD'S PEOPLE. PLEASE KEEP THE COPYRIGHT INTACT.******



This is why I can love my ex-husband enough to pray for him, and his current wife, but I could not overlook the continung verbal abuse from his anger over my crippling accident, his subsequent desertion and adultery.

If he had repented while my other kinds of love were still active towards him, I might, and I say might, have been able to continue those types of love, but I would have needed a lot of repentance, change of behavior, and it would take a lot of time to re-establish trust.

God can tell if we mean something in our hearts, and still He asks for obedience as proof of our love. God still wants the fruits of the spirit to be made plain to Him. He doesn't want works, He wants proof of love.

God believed Abraham loved Him, but still God wanted the proof of Him giving up Isaac in full trust in Him to still make Abraham the father of nations through Isaac.

Works are always done for our own sake and pleasure. Obedience is done only to please God, not because it is our first desire. The longer we love God, the more this obedience is ingrained in us, and a habit, which is why God then sends very nasty trials to test if that love is still inviolate, still passionate towards Him. And if we are not loving enough to please Him, He has the Holy Spirit convict us of that lapse, that we might redouble our efforts to love Him on purpose, in agape, phileo, storge, and eros.

Blessings,

Forrest

Once Saved...Always Saved??? Revisited Part 3


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/7/8 23:57Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved??? Revisited


Page 10

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Eternal Security is not up to us. Just like a baby being born is not up to the baby. When God planned before the foundation of the world to have son's that are in Christ Jesus, he did not ask if the son's wanted to be born again. His birthing of His only begotten son in Mary was His choice not hers, all she did was agree with God. I think that is enough, if the Holy Spirit appeared to us and said God is going to birth the Incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ His Son in you all we can do is agree...Before by new birth the Holy Spirit was with me, and now He is In me. The all in all is now nature and all I want is to know Him and to be pleasing to Him by the birthing of His Son in me.

In God, In Christ, In the Holy Spirit and They in me: Phillip




My dear brother, I fully ackowledge our eternal debt to God for sending us Jesus.

But Jesus Himself asks for obedience...as a proof of love, not as works, nor to do works for works sake.

If all we do is fasten our eyes on Christ, and love Him in obedience, that is all we need do.

I am merely saying that some choose not to obey, and literally stop on the path to glory, turn around, refuse to obey for a long enough time that God want's a divorce, not because He does not love us, but because that person did not love Him back, nor show it in any way.

[color=993300] Phillipians 2:5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15. That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;


1 Peter 1: 5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8. Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9. Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
[/color]

Our salvation is a forever done thing if, and only if, we believe, and keep on believing.

In the scriptures it allows for our perpetual safety only if we set out faces like flint toward the Lord, and act on it.

The Once Saved, Always Saved position says we do not have to do anything past our initial committment, and indeed, are covered against all that we do in our body, mind and spirit.

I say that if our body does one thing, out of it's sin nature, while our mind, heart, soul and spirit still reach out for God, we are saved forever.

I also say if we stop reaching out for God, our mind, heart, soul and spirit will stop on the path to holiness, turn around, and join the body again, going back to death away from the Life of Jesus.

The Once Saved, Always Saved position promotes a belief that our soul is forever safe, even if we turn around, and walk away from Christ to the point where God can no longer handle it, and turns us over to our desires and our self, instead of His Self and His Desires. And this is why I am against this position being taught.

Blessings,

Forrest


Page 10
Quote:

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hello...

I think that a much more appropriate set of questions are:

Can a person who walks with God ever depart the faith?

If a person can depart the faith, what is the end of that person?

:-(

Some individuals believe that it is impossible for a true believer to ever "depart the faith." I believe that it is very much possible and very much a part of the Church. We are each being tempted daily to abandon our faith in Christ. What would happen if we were to give in to temptation and return to a life our vomit -- preferring a life of "vomit" above our relationship with Christ? I know several individuals who have done so. They are living in a sad state of being -- miserable in their sins and miserable at the height from which they have fallen. Most of all, they are miserable about the loss of the relationship that they had with Christ.

Sadly, I also know a couple of individuals who go about boasting of their salvation -- yet are willfully involved in gross fornicative lifestyles. Yet someone had the audacity to tell they that they are still "on their way to heaven." I fear for those individuals concerning their "day in court."....I think that the key to this topic is found in I Corinthians 11:12-13. When you are faced with temptation, what do you do? Do you resist it? Do you give in the the "escape" that the Lord provides? Or do you give up all resistance and partake into the lifestyle -- forsaking all that you hold dear from Christ? I know individuals who believe that it is possible to live a life of sin while still walking with Christ. We cannot hold both cups! While we will always be confined to a sinful body, we do not give in completely to our sinful nature. Those who do -- loving this present world OVER the life of Christ enough to have forsaken all that they have gained -- are in danger of "falling away."

If a person comes to Christ, walks with Him for years, even leading others to Him, yet sins -- I feel that God's grace is present to call this man back unto Christ. But what if this person IGNORES the call? What if a person is so entrapped in sin that they literally abandon the faith? What is the end for such a person?

Perhaps we need to distinguish between someone trapped in a sin but hating it while trying to overcome -- and those who willingly choose to live within the temptation?

:-(



Now you know why I worry, not for myself, nor for those on SI, who are so plainly ever-seeking, but those babes in Christ that are taught wrongly, and believe they are still safe if they desert God.

Blessings,

Forrest


Page 11
Quote:

GrannieAnnie wrote:
I love when this topic comes up and turns into a meeting of two minds.

I don't believe in UNconditional eternal security, as it's taught by some ... but the neat thing is that ... "the elect" will not lose their Salvation.

This is neat ~ Who are the elect ?

Those who GOD Foreknew from before the beginning - so to speak - that wouldn't 'fall away'.

He knows those which are His and who will "endure unto the end."

Whenever you see Him speak of the Elect in The Word - you find them "not being deceived" and in the verses where that title for them is mentioned, they are nothing but 'overcomers'.

There are tons of verses, like the parables of the sower and ground types and so on, that tell of those who make a profession of faith but as Charles Stanley said yesterday .... even believing in Christ, etc. does not make one "saved".

If you look in the N.T. Concordance under verses with "if you" alone, there are many-many "if's".

Our only difference in these two ways of thinking is that those who hold to OSAS say - that if a person has no sign of fruit or holiness
"they were never saved in the first place" and us others say .... they presently cannot be saved by their lifestyles ... but that's where we can agree .... that they "presently" are not saved.

Why argue if both argree on that ?....Most all of our Classic Authors we love so much believed Reformed Theology or Calvinism and I love those Authors best, but with that one point - God's foreknowledge of who the Elect are. He Knows those that are His - those who will remain faithful even unto the end.




Oooohhhh, GO Grannie GO!!!!

Blessings,

Forrest


Page 11
Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
This seems to fit with the discussion here, enjoy as this is the marrow of what we are getting at.

[i]The bent of the needle

(Thomas Brooks, "London's Lamentations" 1670)

"No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one
who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him." 1 John 3:6

A trade, a course of sin--is inconsistent with a state of grace. The best saints have sadly miscarried as to particular actions; but he who shall judge of a man's spiritual state by particular acts, though notorious bad, will certainly condemn, where God acquits. We must always distinguish between some single evil actions, and a serious course of evil actions. It is not this or that particular evil action--but a continued course of evil actions--which denominates a man wicked. Just so, it is not this or that particular holy act--but a continued course of holy actions--which denominates a man holy.

[b]Every man is--as his course is. If his course is holy--the man is holy. If his course is wicked--the man is wicked.

No man ought to conclude, because of some particular good actions--that his spiritual state is good.

No man ought to conclude, because of some particular sinful actions--that his spiritual state is bad.[/b]

A course of sinning is not consistent with a course of godliness. Though the needle of the seaman's compass may jog this way and that way--yet the bent of the needle will still be northward. Just so, though a Christian
may have his particular sinful joggings this way or that way--yet the bent of his heart will still be . . .
God-wards,
Christ-wards,
heaven-wards,
holiness-wards. [/i]




Oooooh, GO PATRICK!!!!

And to think I had you confused with a lady for a while, without checking. For some reason confused you with someone else - but blame my memory, please, not my heart. The heart works fine, even though the short term memory just won't put everything into longterm! My programming is good now, but my hardware needs Glorification!

Let it come soon!

Blessings,

Forrest


Page 11
Quote:

GrannieAnnie wrote:
I love when this topic comes up and turns into a meeting of two minds.

I don't believe in UNconditional eternal security, as it's taught by some ... but the neat thing is that ... "the elect" will not lose their Salvation.

This is neat ~ Who are the elect ?

Those who GOD Foreknew from before the beginning - so to speak - that wouldn't 'fall away'.

He knows those which are His and who will "endure unto the end."




God does know who overcomes...He is all knowing, and He stands outside our timeline, knowing the end from the beginning.

But WE do not know, and dare not assume too much.

I know I speak with the Holy Spirit, or hear Jesus because what is said matches with the Bible. I also know enough to check what I hear against the Bible, and to watch for the Evil One, who would so much like to fool me. And he's good at it. I still fall into His traps for bits of time. I am in fear lest it lead me the wrong way. I do not fear that Jesus doesn't guard me...He keeps allowing me in His permissive will to fall into these little traps from time to time to perfect me. Then He convicts me through the Holy Spirit, I get back up on the path, and WE keep on going.

The Devil, however, is really good at twisting things, just a little, like this Once Saved, Always Saved idea.

Very sneaky of Lucifer. He tricks the unwary into delight in sin.

Yes, there are many who are wary, and there are many who are babes in Christ, and need careful teaching, lest they stray from the path while they know nothing.

And babes are forever perfected in Jesus...they don't know enough to stray, and Jesus' holiness is in them, shining brightly, and the Holy Spirit is in them, working.

I just don't want any of them taught that they can do bad stuff, and it's still okay, because Jesus loves us.

He does, and He hangs on a long, long time, far longer than one would think. But I don't want anyone taking chances.

Guarding your salvation faith with obedience is rather more to the point.

Blessings,

Forrest


Page 12
Quote:

GrannieAnnie wrote:
HI Forrest and Katy-Did,

Right on. We are secure "as we abide in Him".

The misuse of the name "Elect" is the 'abuse' of the verses that speak of the security of the Elect.

The Elect are again, those who God, through Foreknowledge knows, will be faithful unto the end.

They will endure and by their desire to press on and love Him by pleasing Him only, that will set them apart as those who loved not their lives to the death - Etc.

The abuse of the OSAS belief is what has caused many that I've seen where I live to live self-centered lives instead of Christocentric.

Thank you for both of your posts. I enjoyed them.

Phil 3:7-14




Thank you. I am so relieved that there are others that see my point, not that the elect are not perfect in Christ, but that WE don't know if WE are the elect, and must keep believing, and acting in belief; loving God and one another, until the last day, ever pressing on in holiness of mind and heart and spirit.

Our sin nature is always a burden to us, and can pull us temporarily off the path, but as long as we keep our eyes on Jesus, and walk in the Holy Spirit, we will overcome, and find, that after all is said and done, that we are the 'Elect' of God.

It hurts to see new Christians led astray into thinking that their salvation is secure if they do nothing but what they have always done, and continue delighting in sin, when every mature Christian knows that we must walk out our faith in fear and trembling, always hopeful, always counting on the grace promised us, but not counting on ourselves to stay in righteousness in the heart, mind and spirit without a little effort!

But I will not know I am of the Elect until that final day, and I will not presume to think so, so I'm going to press on, and overcome, with Jesus' help.

Blessings,

Forrest


Page 12
Quote:

Katy-did wrote:
Hi GrannyAnnie: The Gospel that so many miss in scripture is that we are called to the fellowship of His sufferings. It seems those who are anchored in "these" truths are the ones that know it takes that fellowship to be conformed in the first place. Once we are resolved to this truth, knowing our life now belongs to the Lord, we don't fight it. We know we are no longer a part of this world system, and what the world has to offer...The fact is, when one TOTALLY SURRENDERS their life to the Lord, they have given it completely over to the Lord. It belongs to Him now. What we lose in this world, we have a million times over in the Riches that are in Christ Jesus.
God Bless! With Love in Christ
Katy-Did! :-)




Oh, Katy,

How much I wish that this were the case.

Yet Paul in Hebrews 6 speaks specifically to this:[color=993300]Hebrews 6

1. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3. And this will we do, if God permit.
4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.[/color]

Paul is stating that if one falls away, and by falling away, it is not the mere habits of the dead body that is still a part of us that is a falling away, but a going away from Christ. And to ask Christ to forgive it again is to crucify Him again.

Judas Iscariot was a true follower of Jesus, and it was only at the end that he fell away. His lust for money, and whatever disappointments he had in Jesus for not being the King in Glory Messiah, were overwhelmed by the knowledge of his injustice to Christ. Judas killed himself rather than risk asking Jesus for forgiveness for helping to put Him on that cross.

Would Jesus have forgiven the man whom Satan entered into? He was only a tool of the devil's after all. I cannot believe that Jesus would, for He said, [color=99300]Matt.26:24. The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.[/color]

Once Saved, Always Saved says that no matter what we do, Jesus will always take us back, no matter how far we stray.

Under this theory, one could take the mark of the Beast during the tribulation in sincere belief that one would be forgiven.

But as Hebrews shows, there is a point of no return, where if Jesus were to forgive such a betrayal, that He would have to suffer the crucifiction again.

I know that Jesus bends over backwards to keep us saved, because I have tested Him very far, yet in a way, I never entirely let go of Jesus' hand, nor He of mine, even when I was doing my worst sinning.

I sinned in ignorance, in foolishness, in fear, and because the devil tricked me well. And to a point, I enjoyed my sins. Who hasn't?

But I didn't knowingly or unknowingly turn my back on Jesus and walk away, diving into a life of sin, and deliberately and lasciviously luxuriate in sin, and teach it to others.

And there are those that were in the Church that have turned their back on Jesus, and have taught the Devil's lies, and Jesus will not take them back.

And to tell a babe in Christ that he is always safe, no matter what he does, is only going to encourage this kind of behavior.

How many souls have you told that all will be well, that are dancing with the devil, and can never come back? Will they blame you for false teaching? Will Christ?

I will not take that risk as a teacher, nor will I encourage anyone to believe that there is NOT a point for every person when Christ will become so sickened at their behavior that they are vomited out of the Church Corporate.

Once Saved, Always Saved is a lie.

The burden of teaching it be on the heads that do so.

In Christ,

Forrest
Once Saved...Always Saved??? Revisited Part 4


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/7/8 23:58Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved??? Revisited

Page 13

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
Judas Iscariot was a true follower of Jesus, and it was only at the end that he fell away.



Dear Forrest you have much insight into spiritual things and I am blessed by many things you have posted but I must ask you where in the Bible does it say Judas was a true follower of Christ?

We read these words of Christ
John 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: [b]and ye are clean, but not all.
John 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.[/b]



Patrick, you got me! I used a bad example to present a truly good point.

I don't usually study Judas, as he is so obviously damned.

I'll rewrite the post.

Thank you for pointing this out!!!

Blessings,

Forrest


Deleted - repetition of post.


Page 13
Hi Katy!

As you requested:

[color=993300]Hebrews 7:15. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16. Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18. For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
20. And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
21. (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
22. By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24. But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27. Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.[/color]

Christ is indeed OUR surety...He will never leave us, so long as we believe on Him. It is a conditional committment. We have to trust in Him. And we have to show it, by yielding to the Holy Spirit's teaching, and in due time, show fruit of that teaching.

But WE can leave Him.

WE can stop believing, stop walking the walk, turn in our tracks, go back down the narrow path, out the strait gate, and play slip and slide with all the others going to hell on the broad and easy way.

And telling a new believer that once he has believed on Jesus, he can never lose Jesus is perfectly true. Jesus will stick to us closer than a brother, but He's not going to drag us kicking and screaming the entire way to His father's throne.

That would invalidate our free will to say yes or no to the offer God makes us in Jesus.

Yes, like any adult with a baby, He's going to keep nudging us back on the the narrow path as we wander off of it, coax us along with favors and blessings, then as we grow in Him, He will begin to train us up in the way we should go. Trials will begin to come, to test the validity of our committment. And I'm sure you have noticed, the further you are along on the path, the more you get tested, because Jesus wants His Bride as perfect as possible when they enter their Glorified bodies.

But not everyone passes the trials. Some do look back, and go back, and the ones that do most easily are those that are assured that Jesus will love them no matter what!

Well, He will. But He'll love them all the way into Hell, sorrowing for the necessity of judgement, because someone, with good intentions, told them, Once Saved, Always Saved!

But we have to warn people not to betray Jesus.

How many of the people in America's churches believe the Once Saved, Always Saved Doctrine, and have Lucifer sitting in the front row, clapping and singing, and laughing at our gullibility?!!!

As I said in a post on another thread about divorce, God has divorced two nations already for faithlessness, Ephaim and Judah, and BETROTHED a third group, the Christian Church, by salvation through faith. But you know, we're not glorified yet, and we're not married yet, and God can still put us away, divorce us, for unfaithfulness.

God was perfectly willing to toss the entire 12 Tribes of Israel out, and start over again in the Mosaic Covenant with Moses, simply because God couldn't stand their whining, complaining, and ultimately, their treachery. And they only had to obey the outer Laws. They could sin all day long in their hearts and minds, and if they kept the Law, by making the proper offerings for any failures, would be considered righteous.

The above surety in Christ as our one time Passover Lamb satisfies the Law forever, and gives us OUR surety in Him as our Priest and Husband forever.

But it does so conditionally. We have to believe on Him, and act like we do!

It doesn't give us our surety in Him except by faith, to enter into the covenant, and even then, Jesus requires two things of us. We are to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength, and our brothers as ourselves.

That is our walk. That is the fruit Christ wants in return for His surety of our souls. He's done His part, now He wants us to do ours.

The New Covenant is a Blood Covenant, but a covenant is a contract, and can be broken.

[color=0000FF]Elwells Theological Dictionary
Topics: Covenant.

Text: A compact or agreement between two parties binding them mutually to undertakings on each other's behalf. Theologically (used of relations between God and man) it denotes a gracious undertaking entered into by God for the benefit and blessing of man, and specifically of those men who by faith receive the promises and commit themselves to the obligations which this undertakes involves.

In the OT. *txUniformly the word used to express the covenant concept is the Hebrew berit. The original meaning of this word was probably "fetter" or "obligation," coming from a root bara, "to bind." This root does not occur as a verb in Hebrew, but it does occur in Akkadian as baru, "to bind," and appears as a noun in the Akkadian biritu, which means "bond" or "fetter." Thus a berit would originally signify a relationship between two parties wherein each bound himself to perform a certain service or duty for the other. But some scholars prefer to derive this noun from the verb bara "to eat," which occurs in II Sam. 13:6; 12:17; etc., and thus interpret it as "a meal" or "food," with reference to the sacrificial meal which the contracting parties often ate together when ratifying their agreement before the diety who was invoked as protector and guarantor of the covenant. Still others trace it from a bara meaning "to perceive" or "to determine"; hence berit would involve the basic idea of "vision.
" But neither of these explanations commends itself as being so fitting or appropriate to the basic character of a covenant as the idea of "bond" preferred by the majority of scholars.

A general characteristic of the OT berit is its unalterable and permanently binding character. The parties to a covenant obligated themselves to carry out their respective commitments under the penalty of divine retribution should they later attempt to avoid them. Usually, although not necessarily, the promise of each was supported by some sort of legal consideration or quid pro quo. But where the one party to the agreement was greatly superior to the other in power or authority, the situation was a bit different: the ruler or man of authority would in the enactment of the berit simply announce his governmental decree or constitution which he thought best to impose upon those under him, and they for their part expressed their acceptance and readiness to conform to what he had ordained. Doubtless it was true even in this type of covenant that the ruler implicitly committed himself to rule for the best interests of his people and to contrive for their protection against their foes.

But in the case of the promulgation of a covenant by God with his chosen people, this one-sided aspect of the transaction was even more apparent, since the contracting parties stood upon entirely different levels. In this case the covenant constituted a divine announcement of God's holy will to extend the benefits of his unmerited grace to men who were willing by faith to receive them, and who by entering into a personal commitment to God bound themselves to him by ties of absolute obligation. The characteristic statement of this relationship occurs in the formula "I will be their God and they shall be my people" (cf. Jer. 11:4; 24:7; 30:22; 32:38; Ezek. 11:20; 14:11; 36:28; 37:23; Zech. 8:8; etc.). This signifies that God unreservedly gives himself to his people and that they in turn give themselves to him and belong to him. Thus they are his "peculiar treasure" (segulla, Exod. 19:5; Deut. 7:6; 14:2; 26:18; Ps. 135:4; Mal. 3:17).
His motive in adopting them as his own covenant children is stated to be "lovingkindness" or "covenant-love" (hesed), a term with which berit is often associated (cf. Deut. 7:9; I Kings 8:23; Dan. 9:4). (Compare also I Sam. 20:8, where Jonathan is said to exercise hesed when he enters into his covenant relationship with David.) This presents a remarkable contrast to the motivation attributed by the heathen Semites to their gods, who were uniformly depicted as entering into covenant relations with their devotees for the purpose of extracting service and nourishment from their altars, more or less like the feudal lords of human society who extract their support from the labor of their vassals.

One very important element in God's covenant relations with Israel lay in the dual aspect of conditionality and unconditionality. Were his solemn promises, which partook of the nature of a binding oath (cf. Deut. 7:8), to be understood as capable of nonfulfillment, in case of the failure of man to live up to his obligations toward God? Or was there a sense in which God's covenant undertakings were absolutely sure of fulfillment, regardless of the unfaithfulness of man? The answer to this much-debated question seems to be: (1) that the promises made by Jehovah in the covenant of grace represent decrees which he will surely bring to pass, when conditions are ripe for their fulfillment; (2) that the personal benefit, and especially the spiritual and eternal benefit, of the divine promise will accrue only to those individuals of the covenant people of God who manifest a true and living faith (demonstrated by a godly life).
Thus the first aspect is brought out by the initial form of the covenant with Abraham in Gen. 12:1-3; there is no shadow of doubt but what God will truly make of Abram a great nation, and make his name great, and shall bless all the nations of earth through him and his posterity (cf. Gal. 3:8). This is set forth as God's plan from the very beginning; nothing shall frustrate it. On the other hand, the individual children of Abraham are to receive personal benefit only as they manifest the faith and obedience of Abraham; thus Exod. 19:5 ("Now therefore if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me....And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation"). In other words, God will see to it that his plan of redemption will be carried out in history, but he will also see to it that none partake of the eternal benefits of the covenant in violation of the demands of holiness.
No child of the covenant who presents to him a faithless and insincere heart shall be included in its blessings.

This triumphantly enduring quality of the covenant of grace is especially set forth by the prophets in the form of the "new covenant." In the classic passage on this theme (Jer. 31:31-37) the earliest phase of the covenant (that was effected at Sinai) is shown to have been temporary and provisional because of the flagrant violation of it by the Israelite nation as a whole, and because of their failure to know or acknowledge God as their personal Lord and Savior. But there is a time coming, says Jehovah, when he will put his holy law into their very hearts, so that their cordial inclination and desire will be to live according to his holy standard. Moreover he shall beget within them a sense of sonship toward himself, so that they shall have a personal knowledge and love of him that will not require artificial human teaching. Furthermore the carrying out of this redeeming purpose is stated to be as sure as the continued existence of sun, moon, and stars, or even of the foundations of heaven itself.

In the NT. The term for covenant employed in the NT is diatheke, the word used constantly in the LXX for berit. Since the ordinary Greek word for "contract" or "compact" (syntheke) implied equality on the part of the contracting parties, the Greek-speaking Jews preferred diatheke (coming from diatithemai, "to make a disposition of one's own property") in the sense of a unilateral enactment. In secular Greek this word usually meant "will" or "testament," but even classical authors like Aristophanes (Birds 439) occasionally used it of a covenant wherein one of the two parties had an overwhelming superiority over the other and could dictate his own terms. Hence the biblical diatheke signified (in a way much more specific than did berit) an arrangement made by one party with plenary power, which the other party may accept or reject but cannot alter. Johannes Behm (TDNT, II, 137) defines it as "the decree (Verfuegung) of God,
the powerful disclosure of the sovereign will of God in history whereby he constitutes the relationship, the authoritative divine ordinance (institution), which introduces a corresponding order of affairs." There is just one passage in which the more usual secular significance of "will" or "testament" appears along with the covenantal idea: Heb. 9:15-17. A legal analogy is drawn from the fact that a testator must die before his will can take effect; so also in the enactment of the Mosaic covenant there was slain a sacrificial animal, representing the atonement of Christ, and it was the blood of that victim which was sprinkled upon the people and the covenantal document itself. But even here the predominant notion in diatheke is "covenant" rather than "testament." G. L. ARCHER, JR.

See also COVENANT, THE NEW.

Bibliography. G. R. Berry, ISBE, II, 727-29; A. B. Davidson, The Theology of the OT; G. E. Mendenhall, Law and Covenant in Israel and the Ancient Near East; G. Oehler, Theology of the OT; W. Oesterly and T. H. Robinson, Hebrew Religion; G. Vos, Biblical Theology; J. Behm and G. Quell, TDNT,II, 106ff.; G. Gurt, NIDNTT, I,365ff.; W. Eichrodt, Theology of the OT, 2 vols.; D. J. McCarthy, OT Covenant; K. Baltzer, The Covenant Formulary; D. R. Hillers, Covenant: History of a Biblical Idea; M. G. Kline, Treaty of the Great King. [/color]


The above passage in Hebrews 7:15-28 merely states that Christ will never be the one to
break that blood covenant.

It is always we who can do that. Sure, we pay the price of damnation for it, but we don't have to stay betrothed to Christ, walk the walk, and produce fruit in patience, kindness, joy, humility, and love. We can change our minds, or be tricked into doing so by the devil who perverts our teaching!

I do not want any newborn in Christ ever told that Christ will leave him.

I do want every newborn, toddler, youngster, adolescent and adult Christian taught frequently that they must walk forward, as a toddler toward his Daddy. They can pause on the path. I daresay they can literally sit down on the path, facing the throne of God in the distance, playing patty cakes with the dirt on the path, go no further than their first step to Christ, and Christ will honor them as they deserve...as babies. Saved, but just barely.

But having seen the Holy Spirit working in my newly saved Dad, no one really does stay completely still on the path. My Dad may never listen to a sermon, or read the Bible, but the Holy Spirit is in Him, and it shows. But I will never tell my Dad that he can sin and go on sinning, and still be saved, no matter what he does, because it is a lie. A lie of the Devil.

I have no objection at all to telling those newborns in Christ that they are going to break every law ever made, in their heart, and in their body, and Christ will not care, so long as they repent of it, and go forward on their walk, trying to get a little better at their walk in Christ every day of their life. I've seen my Dad do that with no other teaching than that of the Holy Spirit.

But we have a sin nature still attached to our newly made heart, and it will sin whether we want it to or not. But if we stop repenting, and join in with the sin nature, and start reveling in it, and then worse, teach it to others as being just fine with Jesus, as we see is being done in our churches today, the result is going to be very different.

The WHOLE truth must be taught to the newly born in Christ.

If anyone teaches a child he can get away with complete and total disobedience all their lives, flaunting their breaking of the covenent in Jesus's face, and still be saved, I tremble at the fate of the child, and the one who told them that foolish thing.

Once Saved, Always Saved is a doctrine of the devil, ment to lull people into disobedience.

Once Saved, Always saved is a lie of the devil, and should be seen as such, not fought as if I am trying to take people's salvation from them.

I want people to be saved, and stay saved, not just because Jesus loves them. Jesus loves everyone. It's His nature, because He is God.

But those that love Him back are those that will be in the kingdom, no matter how slight their obedience, no matter how mixed up their walk, no matter how limited their love, as long as they are headed toward Jesus.

It is the child of God who must be wary against the wiles of the devil, and the drag of that always sinning dead body that we lug around everywhere.

So I repeat, on the head of those that teach this false doctrine made up by the devil to be snare for the feet of the unwary, be the result of their teachings.

And yes, those that have taught this in error need only repent, and they will be forgiven. But they need to contact all they have ever taught the doctrine to, and say, Oh, by the way, that Once Saved, Always Saved business...it only works if you keep believing in God, and prove it with your obedience, because obedience is the only way to prove our love to God.

Blessings,

Forrest
Once Saved...Always Saved??? Revisited Part 5


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/7/9 0:00Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved??? Revisited

Page 14

Quote:

jimp wrote:
hi, there is no OSAS doctrine;



Oh, Jimp I wish this were true in the sense that no such teaching was ever taught to anyone. No, there is no doctrine that says Once Saved, Always Saved, but despite that fact, there are a lot of people who teach it, have been teaching it, and we are seeing the result in the churches even as we speak.


Quote:
it is the eternal security of the believer.It is called osas in ignorance.anyone who says that this doctrine says that you can live any way you want is also in error.



Oh, indeed, I agree! But again, the error is taught consistantly, people believe it, go back to their dead bodies, put them back on, and think they are going to be just fine come Judgement Day.


Quote:
what happens is your sins will find you out... if you are dead to this world and alive in Christ you still pay for the sins done in the flesh...in the flesh. i have seen this so often where a christian who is living a good life makes some bad choices(sin)and days later they are jobless,in jail,homeless,lose their family,you name it i have seen the results of sin and sometimes death.



This has happened in my live as well. I did a lot of sinning, and even though I kept coming back to Jesus, and He kept forgiving me, and giving me a fresh start spiritually, my life was forever changed by everything that I did that was wrong, and some of it is irrevocable.

I sorrow for the sins, and for the result they brought me, but the result is just. And I am saved, and closer to Jesus than ever before. But my life will never be the same, and frankly, it is a good reminder, as well as a testimony to what we can do to ourselves when we turn away from Jesus.

Quote:
still His grace is new every morning.jimp



Yes, and for all of us, without that, we would never be able to go on.

But because Once Saved, Always Saved is taught as a Doctrine, (Although it should be called Lucifer's Doctrine), people are being led astray. But it is not because Jesus will leave us, nor even let us go due to the sins of the old man that we drag around with us. That is why I am still saved, like many another.

But we can leave Jesus, although it takes the devil a lot of hard work and desception to pull it off, and you have to turn around and walk away from Jesus. Alas, you can see by one look at our churches that Lucifer's been using this one a lot.

Blessings,

Forrest


Page 14
Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Quote:

""Notice Christ does not say, "because you don't believe you are not my sheep", but rather, "you do not believe because you are not of my sheep""


I love this, Thank you for another apologetic for the eternal security of His sheep, and our Lambship in Christ.

I love it.

In Christ: Phillip



Wow!

When you see the next newborn lamb of God, are you going to tell him it's safe to play with the big bad Wolf?

Or that because he's a nice little lamb of God that the Wolf won't eat him?

Or that hanging around with the big bad Wolf will do him no harm, because of his eternal lambship?

Because that is what Once Saved, Always Saved is saying.



Or are you going to tell that nice little lamb to stay in the middle of the herd, where the Shepherd can protect him?

That is Once Justified, Always Justified.



They are not the same thing, yet so many think so that little lambkins are being preached to by the Wolf!


Blessings,

Forrest


Page 14
Quote:

rookie wrote:
Quote:
We have a higher calling than Adam and Eve ever did. They were of the dust of the earth, earthly, We are bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh, Co Heirs, seated with Christ in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus, we are His Body.



This is not according to Scripture...

1 Corinthians 15

47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

1Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

In the ressurection, we will be made perfect.

In Christ
Jeff




Thank you, Jeff! You put that point very clearly.

I said in a previous post along these lines that we are BETROTHED to Jesus, not Glorified and Married to Him.

It is only then that we will be safe from ourselves, which is my whole point.

Blessings,

Forrest


Page 14
Quote:

pastorfrin wrote on another post, and I've borrowed it:

If ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

What things? 2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises:

Through the scripture we have been given these promises. Why?

That by these ye might be partakers of the divine
nature. How? By faith; ”faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.”
Now to faith is added virtue, and to virtue knowledge ect...2 Peter 1:5,6,7

Vs 8 For if these things be in you, and abound,
they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor
unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb. 4:12 For the word of God is quick {alive)
and powerful (active), and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing
asunder of soul and spirit, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
2 Pe 1:9
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and
cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he
was purged from his old sins.

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not
hears only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in
a glass:24 For he beholdeth himself, and straight
way forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But
whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty,
(see John 8:31-32) and continueth therin, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Why? Because the scripture cannot be broken. John 10:35

Thus, if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
because the word of God says so.

For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.
Ps. 119:89

In His Love

pastorfrin




Pastorfrin,

Hope you don't mind me using your very nice post to other ends, particularly if you don't see a similar application here.

Do you?

Blessings,

Forrest


Page 14
Alas, I'm stealing quotes from others...please forgive me, HmmmHmmm...it's too good to resist, and I didn't think of it in this application:


2 Pe 1:3-10

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: {to: or, by} 4 Whereby are given [i]unto us[/i] exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 [i]For if these things be in you, and abound[/i], they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. {barren: Gr. idle} 9[u] But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.[/u] 10[b] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:[/b]


Which falling states there is a place to fall from, which I merely want people to teach against, instead of encouraging them to think you can never fall!

ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED IS A LIE!


Blessings,

Forrest


Page 21
Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Works without faith are dead, and that faith must be the faith of the Son of God to be works treasured up in heaven.

[color=993300]Galatians 2:16-17 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.[/color]

Born of God. [color=993300]1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.[/color]

In Him, Praise God we cannot sin for Christ is not the minister of sin.

The flesh can still sin, but we have an Advocate with the Father, [color=993300]"If we confess our sin, God is faithful and just to forgive our sin and cleans us from all unrighteousness."

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 1:7-9 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.[/color]

In Christ: Phillip




Philip,

Once Saved, Always Saved is to me a matter of poor doctrinal teaching, not because Christ cannot and will not hang on to us, but that we can, and are able to turn away from Christ.

For it is not Jesus's faith that saves us, but His action in dying on the cross for us, and our faith - our continuing faith in Him.

All along I have wanted people not to be hung up on this tag, 'Once Saved, Always Saved' that is so comforting to those that sin their way into hell, despite how long they walked with Jesus once.

And now, interestingly, you bring up faith.

Once, a while back I recalled we were discussing faith, and I looked around in the archives to see what I had said, and what you had said in regard to saving faith.

I said:

Quote:
My question would lean more to whether, since Jesus lives in me, does not His Faith, as in Godlike Faith, also live in me?

And if so, will not His Faith trump my poor faith as I lay gasping on the narrow path?
Quote:



Compliments wrote:

Quote:
This is Christwards and Sonlike faith, but it is not, I think, Christ’ faith instead of Paul’s faith.

I am having difficulty receiving that it's not "Christs' faith" that Paul is now living by.

It is without doubt that Paul reached perfection, and Jesus is the author and the finisher of our faith.

There is an end to our faith, to which it carries us thru the trials and temptations to where Christ is fully grown up inside of us. The SEED was not meant to sit in our lives and not grow, that SEED is Christ.
Quote:
[color=993300]1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.[/color]

He that endures to the end the same shall be saved, that end is your faith, not the end of the world, as our carnal minds think.

When Christ has become grown in us, then comes to past which was spoken of in Habakkuk:
Quote:
[color=993300]Habakkuk 2:4..... the just shall live by his faith.

It's no longer I that liveth.

[/color]



Phillip, are you saying now that we cannot turn away from Jesus under any circustance? Or that one can fall away, repent, and be forgiven, so long as we have not strayed too far?

Or will you fall back on that tired response again that one cannot possibly haved been saved if you fall away, when there are instructions in the Bible on how NOT to fall away?

Oddly, my purpose in starting this thread was to try and pound it into some thick heads that bad, deceptive teaching of the OSAS doctrine can lead people to stray if they are not taught at the same time, Once Faithing, Always Faithing.

[color=993300]"[b]Believe[/b] on the Lord your God"[/color]

[color=0000FF]Strong's Ref. # 4100

Romanized pisteuo
Pronounced pist-yoo'-o

from GSN4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):

KJV--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.



Topics: Faith
ELWELLS THEOLOGICAL DICTIONARY

Text: Noun corresponding to the verb "believe," for which the Hebrew is heemin, the hiphil form of aman, and the Greek (LXX and NT) pisteuo. The latter is a key word in the NT, being the term regularly used to denote the many-sided religious relationship into which the gospel calls men and women, that of trust in God through Christ. The complexity of this idea is reflected in the variety of constructions used with the verb (a hoti clause, or accusative and infinitive, expressing truth believed; en and epi with the dative, denoting restful reliance on that to which, or him to whom, credit is given; eis and, occasionally, epi with the accusative, the most common, characteristic, and original NT usage, scarcely present in the LXX and not at all in classical Greek, conveying the thought of a movement of trust going out to, and laying hold of, the object of its confidence). The Hebrew noun corresponding to aman (emuna, rendered pistis in the LXX), regularly denotes faithfulness in the sense of trustworthiness,
and pistis occasionally bears this sense in the NT (Rom. 3:3, of God; Matt. 23:23; Gal. 5:22; Titus 2:10, of man). The word emuna normally refers to the faithfulness of God, and only in Hab. 2:4 is it used to signify man's religious response to God. There, however, the contrast in the context between the temper of the righteous and the proud self-sufficiency of the Chaldeans seems to demand for it a broader sense than "faithfulness" alone, the sense, namely, of self-renouncing, trustful reliance upon God, the attitude of heart of which faithfulness in life is the natural expression. This is certainly the sense in which the apostolic writers quote the text (Rom. 1:17; Gal. 3:11; Heb. 10:38), and the sense which pistis, like pisteuo, regularly carries in the NT, where both words are used virtually as technical terms (John preferring the verb, Paul the noun) to express the complex thought of unqualified acceptance of, and exclusive dependence on,
the mediation of the Son as alone securing the mercy of the Father. Both normally bear this whole weight of meaning, whether their grammatical object is God, Christ, the gospel, a truth, a promise, or is not expressed at all. Both signify commitment as following from conviction, even in contexts where faith is defined in terms of the latter only (e.g., compare Heb. 11:1 with the rest of the chapter). The nature of faith, according to the NT, is to live by the truth it receives; faith, resting on God's promise, gives thanks for God's grace by working for God's glory.

Some occasional contractions of this broad idea should be noticed:

(1) James, alone of NT writers, uses both noun and verb to denote bare intellectual assent to truth (James 2:14-26). But here he is explicitly mimicking the usage of those whom he seeks to correct, Jewish converts, who may well have inherited their notion of faith from contemporary Jewish sources, and there is no reason to suppose that this usage was normal or natural to him (his reference to faith in 5:15, e.g., clearly carries a fuller meaning). In any case the point he makes, namely, that a merely intellectual "faith," such as the demons have, is inadequate, is wholly in line with the rest of the NT. For example, when James says, "Faith without works is dead" (2:26), he is saying the same as Paul, who says in essence, "Faith without works is not faith at all, but its opposite" (cf. Gal. 5:6; 1 Tim. 5:8).

(2) Occasionally, by a natural transition, "the faith" denotes the body of truths believed (e.g., Jude 3; Rom. 1:5[?]; Gal. 1:23; 1 Tim. 4:1, 6). This became standard usage in the second century.

(3) From Christ himself derives a narrower use of "faith" for an exercise of trust which works miracles (Matt. 17:20-21; 1 Cor. 12:9; 13:2), or prompts the workings of miracles (Matt. 9: 28-29; 15:28; Acts 14:9). Saving faith is not always accompanied by "miracle-faith," however (1 Cor. 12:9); nor vice versa (cf. Matt. 7:22-23).

General Conception. Three points must be noted for the circumscribing of the biblical idea of faith:

Faith in God Involves Right Belief about God. The word "faith" in ordinary speech covers both credence of propositions ("beliefs") and confidence in persons or things. In the latter case some belief about the object trusted is the logical and psychological presupposition of the act of trust itself, for trust in a thing reflects a positive expectation about its behavior, and rational expectation is impossible if the thing's capacities for behavior are wholly unknown. Throughout the Bible trust in God is made to rest on belief of what he has revealed concerning his character and purposes. In the NT, where faith in God is defined as trust in Christ, the acknowledgment of Jesus as the expected Messiah and the incarnate Son of God is regarded as basic to it. The writers allow that faith in some form can exist where as yet information about Jesus is incomplete (Acts 19:1ff.),
but not where his divine identity and Christhood are consciously denied (1 John 2:22-23; II John 7-9); all that is possible then is idolatry (1 John 5:21), the worship of a manmade unreality. The frequency with which the epistles depict faith as knowing, believing, and obeying "the truth" (Titus 1:1; II Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:22, etc.) show that their authors regarded orthodoxy as faith's fundamental ingredient (cf. Gal. 1:8-9).

Faith Rests on Divine Testimony. Beliefs, as such, are convictions held on grounds, not of self-evidence, but of testimony. Whether particular beliefs should be treated as known certainties or doubtful opinions will depend on the worth of the testimony on which they are based. The Bible views faith's convictions as certainties and equates them with knowledge (1 John 3:2; 5:18-20, etc.), not because they spring from supposedly self-authenticating mystical experience, but because they rest on the testimony of a God who "cannot lie" (Titus 1:2) and is therefore utterly trustworthy. The testimony of Christ to heavenly things (John 3:11, 31-32), and of the prophets and apostles to Christ (Acts 10:39-43), is the testimony of God himself (1 John 5:9ff.); this God-inspired witness is God's own witness (cf. 1 Cor. 2:10-13; 1 Thess. 2:13), in such a sense that to receive it is to certify that God is true (John 3:33), and to reject it is to make God a liar (1 John 5:10).
Christian faith rests on the recognition of apostolic and biblical testimony as God's own testimony to his Son.

Faith Is a Supernatural Divine Gift. Sin and Satan have so blinded fallen men (Eph. 4:18; II Cor. 4:4) that they cannot discern dominical and apostolic witness to be God's word, nor "see" and comprehend the realities of which it speaks (John 3:3; 1 Cor. 2:14), nor "come" in selfrenouncing trust to Christ (John 6:44, 65), till the Holy Spirit has enlightened them (cf. II Cor. 4:6). Only the recipients of this divine "teaching," "drawing," and "anointing" come to Christ and abide in him (John 6:44-45; 1 John 2:20, 27). God is thus the author of all saving faith (Eph. 2:8; Phil. 1:29).

Biblical Presentation. Throughout Scripture, God's people live by faith; but the idea of faith develops as God's revelation of grace and truth, on which faith rests, enlarges. The OT variously defines faith as resting, trusting, and hoping in the Lord, cleaving to him, waiting for him, making him our shield and tower, taking refuge in him, etc. Psalmists and prophets, speaking in individual and national terms respectively, present faith as unwavering trust in God to save his servants from their foes and fulfill his declared purpose of blessing them. Isaiah, particularly, denounces reliance on human aid as inconsistent with such trust (Isa. 30:1-18, etc.). The NT regards the self-despairing hope, world-renouncing obedience, and heroic tenacity by which OT believers manifested their faith as a pattern which Christians must reproduce (Rom. 4:11-25; Heb. 10:39-12:2). Continuity is avowed here, but also novelty; for faith, receiving God's new utterance in the words and deeds of Christ (Heb. 1:1-2),
has become a knowledge of present salvation. Faith, so regarded, says Paul, first "came" with Christ (Gal. 3:23-25). The Gospels show Christ demanding trust in himself as bearing the messianic salvation. John is fullest on this, emphasizing (1) that faith ("believing on," "coming to," and "receiving" Christ) involves acknowledging Jesus, not merely as a God-sent teacher and miracle worker (this is insufficient, John 2:23-24), but as God incarnate (John 20:28), whose atoning death is the sole means of salvation (John 3:14-15; 6:51-58); (2) that faith in Christ secures present enjoyment of "eternal life" in fellowship with God (John 5:24; 17:3). The epistles echo this, and present faith in various further relationships. Paul shows that faith in Christ is the only way to a right relationship with God, which human works cannot gain (see Romans and Galatians); Hebrews and 1 Peter present faith as the dynamic of hope and endurance under persecution.

History of Discussion. The church grasped from the first that assent to apostolic testimony is the fundamental element in Christian faith; hence the concern of both sides in the Gnostic controversy to show that their tenets were genuinely apostolic. During the patristic period, however, the idea of faith was so narrowed that this assent came to be regarded as the whole of it. Four factors together caused this: (1) the insistence of the anti-Gnostic fathers, particularly Tertullian, that the faithful are those who believe "the faith" as stated in the "rule of faith" (regula fidei), i.e., the Creed; (2) the intellectualism of Clement and Origen, to whom pistis (assent on authority) was just an inferior substitute for, and stepping stone to, gnosis (demonstrative knowledge) of spiritual things; (3) the assimilation of biblical morality to Stoic moralism, an ethic not of grateful dependence but of resolute selfreliance; (4) the clothing of the biblical doctrine of communion with God in Neoplatonic dress,
which made it appear as a mystical ascent to the supersensible achieved by aspiring love, having no link with the ordinary exercise of faith at all. Also, since the doctrine of justification was not understood, the soteriological significance of faith was misconceived, and faith (understood as orthodox) was regarded simply as the passport to baptism (remitting all past sins) and to a lifelong probation in the church (giving the baptized opportunity to make themselves worthy of glory by their good works).

The scholastics refined this view. They reproduced the equation of faith with credence, distinguishing between fides informis ("unformed" faith, bare orthodoxy) and fides caritate formata (credence "formed" into a working principle by the supernatural addition to it of the distinct grace of love). Both sorts of faith, they held, are meritorious works, though the quality of merit attaching to the first is merely congruent (rendering divine reward fit, though not obligatory), and only the second gains condign merit (making divine reward due as a matter of justice). Roman Catholicism still formally identifies faith with credence, and has added a further refinement by distinguishing between "explict" faith (belief which knows its object) and "implicit" faith (uncomprehending assent to whatever it may be that the church holds).
Only the latter (which is evidently no more than a vote of confidence in the teaching church and may be held with complete ignorance of Christianity) is thought to be required of laymen for salvation. But a mere docile disposition of this sort is poles apart from the biblical concept of saving faith.

The Reformers restored biblical perspectives by insisting that faith is more than orthodoxy, not fides merely, but fiducia, personal trust and confidence in God's mercy through Christ; that it is not a meritorious work, one facet of human righteousness, but rather an appropriating instrument, an empty hand outstretched to receive the free gift of God's righteousness in Christ; that faith is God-given, and is itself the animating principle from which love and good works spontaneously spring; and that communion with God means, not an exotic rapture of mystical ecstasy, but just faith's everyday commerce with the Savior. Confessional Protestantism has always maintained these positions. In Arminianism there resides a tendency to depict faith as the human work upon which the pardon of sin is suspended, as, in fact, man's contribution to his own salvation. This would be in effect a Protestant revival of the doctrine of human merit.

Liberalism radically psychologized faith, reducing it to a sense of contented harmony with the Infinite through Christ (Schleiermacher), or a fixed resolve to follow Christ's teaching (Ritschl), or both together. Liberal influence is reflected in the now widespread supposition that "faith," understood as an optimistic confidence in the friendliness of the universe, divorced from any specific creedal tenets, is a distinctively religious state of mind. Neo-orthodox and existentialist theologians, reacting against this psychologism, stress the supernatural origin and character of faith. They describe it as an active commitment of mind and will, man's repeated "yes" to the repeated summons to decision issued by God's word in Christ; but the elusiveness of their account of the content of that word makes it hard sometimes to see what the believer is thought to say "yes" to.

Clearly, each theologian's view of the nature and saving significance of faith will depend on the views he holds of the Scriptures, and of God, man, and of their mutual relations. J. I. PACKER

Bibliography. E.D. Burton, Galatians; B.B. Warfield in HDB and Biblical and Theological Studies; G.H. Box in HDCG; J.G. Machen, What is Faith? B. Citron, New Birth; systematic theologies of C. Hodge (III, 41-113) and L. Berkhof (IV, viii: 493-509); D.M. Baillie, Faith in God; G.C
. Berkouwer, Faith and Justification; J. Hick, Faith and Knowledge; O. Becker and O. Michel, NIDNTT, II, 587ff.; A. Weiser, TDNT, VI, 174ff.; D.M. Emmet, Philosophy and Faith.[/color]


Jesus warned us Himself of what it would be like for us in the Parable of the Sower:

[color=993300]Matthew 13

1. The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2. And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3. And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4. And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5. Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6. And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8. But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10. And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11. He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15. For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.[/color]

Phillip,

I think you know I dislike quarreling, although I will stand up for what I believe in. We have mis-understood each other before, but always come to some conclusion we can both accept.

My difficulty with Once Saved, Always Saved is not that God will not keep us, depite our sin nature, and our inability to remain in righteousness except through Christ, but that the doctrine as taught leads many to believe that they can sin deliberately, maliciously, lascivously, and teach others to sin as well, and still be saved. I don't want Once Saved, Always Saved taught to babes in Christ, and I would like the sons of God to stand up and be counted about this. And Election is not something that any of us can know about until we are with Jesus, so I dislike the use of those verses on predestination by God being taught to new-borns, or used to explain the OSAS doctrine, much less have it be used by the evil one to mislead new caught fish.

Faith, belief, is an on-going action. But how many babes in Christ ever reach the teaching in Roman's these days, much less the other books of the Bible? Babies do as they are told, and the Devil has been in charge of the Church Corporate for a very long time.

Please, my brother, read and ponder all of this carefully, defending not a tag line about belief, but the minds of the helpless. For if we do not stand up for them, and no one else does either, they are already lost.

Blessings,

Forrest
Once Saved...Always Saved??? Revisited Part 5


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/7/9 0:01Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved??? Revisited

Page 22
After all this wonderful discussion and display of scripture, I would like to get back to one particular point.

If we are Elect, we will not know it until our salvation is assured, either through a walk so holy and divinely inspired, so full of fruit of the Spirit that one simply knows that Christ is in him, and he is in Christ, or when we are with Christ, and past the travail of this life.

For it is travail, and we all of us, no matter our view on the extent of Pre-Destination, are working to walk out our walk in faith, and show ourselves approved of God.

Did we start there? Did we know how long and how hard a walk it would be, even knowing that Christ was living inside us?

Please, look again at the explanation of the Parable of the Sower, as laid out by the One who knew.

[color=993300]Matthew 13:18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.[/color]

This seed is dead before it hits the hearer, for the devil makes sure that it is never really heard.

[color=993300] 20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.[/color]

This seed begins rightly, but cannot get past the hard parts of the Christian life.

[color=993300] 22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.[/color]

This seed begins rightly as well, but the cares of this world and the lies of the Evil One overrun it.

[color=993300] 23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.[/color]

Ah yes, the Elect. But did they start that way?


I didn't.


When I look back at my life, I seem to have passed through all four sowings.

For those of you that don't know me, I was brought up in a household without faith, and without observance, and with an extreme distrust of God and the Church - RCC Mom & Protestant Dad.

The first sowing was snatched away by the devil...he used a Sunday School Teacher to indoctrinate me with the idea that perfection was needed to get into heaven. I came away without any knowledge of God except a memory of a blackboard covered in colored chalk representing a child's eye view of Hell, and a tendency towards perfectionism.

Fortunately, no one told me OSAS. I wouldn't have believed them.

My second sowing brought about a baptism, but the devil used a tongue-talkin' church to scare me into believing that they, the church, were evil, for in my 15 year old simplicity, I understood I wanted Jesus, but the tongue-talkin' church forgot to tell me about tongue-talkin', or that I was supposed to come out of the baptismal pool speaking in tongues.

No one told me OSAS. I woudn't have wanted to hear it. All I wanted was to get away from that church as fast as I could.

I got finely tricked by the devil, and went into the Occult. I became an expert at divination, with Tarot Cards, and Palm Reading. And I was good enough to scare people, and make money at it.

I got mad once at someone making fun of my abilities, got a deck of cards, and sorted them, red and black. The odds on doing that are about 30 million to one. I had a friendly demon helping me out. And yes, I scared the people who made fun of me. They shut up, and my boyfriend kept on bragging on my abilities! Gee, what nice friends I had. Thank God I didn't know about OSAS!

I slid into promiscuity like I was coming home.

And my parents were fine with all of this, so long as I got a good education, kept a good reputation to protect the family, and was a success!

So I did that too. The love of money...oh, isn't it so nice to have, and all that?

But you know, the baptism held. I had meant what I said, and Jesus was walking around with me, stuffing in a little unorthodox word here and there along with the classics, and psychology, and I got the real comparative religion along with fairly balanced history and literature because I started college in 1972. The hippies weren't professors and politicians yet.

They are now, and you can't get anything good taught you except at home, that is, if your parents care, and then can send you to a good Christian University.

And when I was 23, I met a guy named Dr. Gene Scott, of recent memory. Yeah, a weird guy, but a very sound scholar. Since he died last year, everyone is using his stuff. Hearing him teach on Romans gave me an education beyond price. His three different sermons on Psalm 84 are a blessing to watch, even if I do have to watch him change ages.

I skipped his playful UFO/British Israelite/Pyramids/Occult/Weird Religions stuff because I already knew as much as he did about that stuff, and maybe more. I didn't care that he said 'damn' and 'hell' since he never blasphemed, not that I would have known or cared! And since I smoked, and drank, I didn't object to him doing so.

Oh, and he taught Pre-Destination and the Perseverance of the Saints at the same time. No, not Calvinism and Armenianism. Just Pre-Destination and Perseverance...hand in hand, until death. Doc Scott taught faith, but he also taught tithing, and about the fruit of the spirit we must show, or be fakers. And he never once said anything about OSAS.

Life engulfed me, and the Word slipped away, and I was caught in the world. But I had God, even if I didn't like His Son's Name, and more scholarship than I knew what to do with. So, in between making money, and partying, I studied some more. And from time to time, I'd be back watching Doc Scott on the satellite because when he talked about God, I understood him. And I drank in years of his teaching, reading his booklist, and studying to see if what he said was really in the Bible. And I learned, right down to the little Greek and Hebrew Squigglies.

I'd been in a Sorority - I knew the Greek Alphabet. I studied Classics - got a bit more there. Hebrew...well, I at least know what a Yod is.

I always did have a scholarly nature. You should have seen my Occult library! And my Antique Tarot Cards! And if I'd really been into spell casting and demonology, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. But I knew enough about what I was doing to be scared of that. And that means I was in very deep.

And somewhere along the way I got real tired of the life I was living. And even though I was studying Zen on the side, I talked occasionally to God.

I got married and I was happy. Worldly, but happy. I stopped giving Tarot readings...not enough time. Oh, and I still managed to catch a fair amount of Doc Scott. I didn't bother sleeping. He was more interesting. And the more stressed out I got, the more I asked God for peace of mind and comfort of spirit, since I actually knew what that meant. Oh, and I finally asked it in Jesus' name too.


Uh oh, that car crash! Bye Bye career, and self, and husband, and sanity, and the ability to move without pain, or live without heavy duty meds. And I even have a high pain threshold!

Hello Peggy Thelan, a psychologist who happened to be a good Christian.


I got my 4th and final sowing along with the counseling to cope with the devastation of my life, the brain damage and the neurological damage you get from breaking your neck in a ditch.

But you know, she didn't tell me OSAS either, so when I collapsed after my husband left me, and hit bottom, hating what I had become, and all that I had lost, I reached out for Jesus. And I hated calling Him that, but eventually got used to all the Christianese. I never went to a church, so I never heard OSAS either.

And I finally fell in love. I was 42. I'm at the obsession point now, 10 years later. I've actually asked Him to use me however He would...that was wierd. He replied.

I don't mind being broken all that much, either, since I know if I was entirely fixed I'd be back out in that world, soaking in success, and sinning away. Because I don't know how to live in the world any other way.

And I'm covered in Christians, because my ministry is to the fallen away relations of church goers. So I meet them everywhere. I have fellowship everywhere, and pass out a few cards. And God's little website that I run for Him...people keep finding it, and more of them show up each week. They're actually starting to send some of what I write to others!

I don't set foot in a church except for Weddings and Funerals. I'm a woman, and I'm not allowed to rebuke the outrageous Pastors that are out there.

I have church wherever I go, because, being disabled, God puts the people He wants me to see in my way.

Well, that's all very nice for me.

But my dad's only been saved a year, and won't even open a Bible yet. It's fun watching the Holy Spirit teach him, because I'm not allowed to. I'm his daughter, even though I am an evangelist and teacher.

So, knowing that OSAS would have been deadly for me to hear, do you think I should tell my Dad?

I know that Election is only sure when you are dead, for I get attacked a lot by the devil, and it would be very easy to turn around in the path. Sin is very attractive when you've been away from it for a long time, and forget how deadly dull it is after a while.

No, I don't want to hurt Jesus, and I enjoy living in peace, and yes, I believe in Hell, and if it's hard for me, how much harder is it for a fresh caught fish in the hands of the modern Christian Church?

So, how many of you want me to start telling people OSAS?

When would it have been good for me to hear it?

I don't dare believe it now, much as I'd like to. Because I'm really good at sinning. Lucifer cried when I rededicated my life to Jesus.

So, if it's not safe for a reasonably well taught, walking the walk Christian to know, why are we telling anyone about it?

I know that grace is there for the sins of my bodily nature. But what about the deliberate ones I really would like to commit, because they're fun, or useful, or might be if I got mad, and had one of my guns handy around a politician...or a reporter!

Uh, Uh! No way! I know I have to watch my walk every day, and so do all of you, and those that say otherwise are lying to themselves.


Yes, I know that God knows who is saved, and will make it to the end in Christ, but none of us know that. From what I see, I'm probably there, but I don't know, not for sure, not enough to bet my salvation on it. What if I fail at the last moment during persecution? After all, it's coming soon to a city near you, and I'm not quiet about being a Christian.

I don't mind jail. I expect it will come to that even in America before I die or am raptured. And death? No problem, I'd love to go Home now, but I wander how well I'd face getting there the hard way?


So, any of you want to bet your salvation on OSAS?

Or teach someone else to?


In Christ,

Forrest

P.S. And for those that care, I got rid of the Antique Tarot Cards and the Occult Library when I asked the Holy Spirit for the gift of tongues. I don't use it much...only when I'm prompted to, but the gift is there, along with others that God uses from time to time.


Page 24
Katy,

I am not talking about what Jesus does for us.

We don't have anything without Him.

But to receive salvation, we must believe in Him.

The Election that men speak of is not handed out with the seed that is sown, but when it is received. And the Election that is given out is not necessarily to each one who says they believe.

Please, read the whole post, and do not fasten on any one part of it.

This is not a standard scriptural defense of opinion, but a complete statement in commentary for the specific purpose of the end concusion.

Please, think of this as only as an undefended thesis, and answer to the whole, or I will have wasted hours writing my post.

I am not debating Election, nor do I mean to seem to. I am talking about perception by the one who is initially saved, not their status in God's eyes.

Blessings,

Forrest


Quote:

And I finally fell in love. I was 42. I'm at the obsession point now, 10 years later. I've actually asked Him to use me however He would...that was wierd. He replied.

I don't mind being broken all that much, either, since I know if I was entirely fixed I'd be back out in that world, soaking in success, and sinning away. Because I don't know how to live in the world any other way.

And I'm covered in Christians, because my ministry is to the fallen away relations of church goers. So I meet them everywhere. I have fellowship everywhere, and pass out a few cards. And God's little website that I run for Him...people keep finding it, and more of them show up each week. They're actually starting to send some of what I write to others!

I don't set foot in a church except for Weddings and Funerals. I'm a woman, and I'm not allowed to rebuke the outrageous Pastors that are out there.

I have church wherever I go, because, being disabled, God puts the people He wants me to see in my way.

Well, that's all very nice for me.

But my dad's only been saved a year, and won't even open a Bible yet. It's fun watching the Holy Spirit teach him, because I'm not allowed to. I'm his daughter, even though I am an evangelist and teacher.

So, knowing that OSAS would have been deadly for me to hear, do you think I should tell my Dad?

I know that Election is only sure when you are dead, for I get attacked a lot by the devil, and it would be very easy to turn around in the path. Sin is very attractive when you've been away from it for a long time, and forget how deadly dull it is after a while.

No, I don't want to hurt Jesus, and I enjoy living in peace, and yes, I believe in Hell, and if it's hard for me, how much harder is it for a fresh caught fish in the hands of the modern Christian Church?

So, how many of you want me to start telling people OSAS?

When would it have been good for me to hear it?

I don't dare believe it now, much as I'd like to. Because I'm really good at sinning. Lucifer cried when I rededicated my life to Jesus.

So, if it's not safe for a reasonably well taught, walking the walk Christian to know, why are we telling anyone about it?

I know that grace is there for the sins of my bodily nature. But what about the deliberate ones I really would like to commit, because they're fun, or useful, or might be if I got mad, and had one of my guns handy around a politician...or a reporter!

Uh, Uh! No way! I know I have to watch my walk every day, and so do all of you, and those that say otherwise are lying to themselves.

Yes, I know that God knows who is saved, and will make it to the end in Christ, but none of us know that. From what I see, I'm probably there, but I don't know, not for sure, not enough to bet my salvation on it. What if I fail at the last moment during persecution? After all, it's coming soon to a city near you, and I'm not quiet about being a Christian.

I don't mind jail. I expect it will come to that even in America before I die or am raptured. And death? No problem, I'd love to go Home now, but I wander how well I'd face getting there the hard way?


So, any of you want to bet your salvation on OSAS?

Or teach someone else to?



In Christ,

Forrest
Once Saved...Always Saved??? Revisited Part 6


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/7/9 0:03Profile





©2002-2021 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy