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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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 Re:

Quote:

4christalone wrote:
I did not take the time to read all of the previous posts on this subject.


But this is a quistion that you can niether lean to hard on the "once Saved Always Saved" nor on the side that you can loose your salvation.

I Like the line: Once sved obviosly saved!

For is not it true when Christ is in us we will not be able to hide it?

Why would we want to pardon the evil of the world but at the same time protect them who are weak/sensitive among us.



Indeed, is not the sword for cutting? Cutting hurts.

 2007/7/8 7:19









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Phil, What you just said here to Nathan is excellent! AMEN! You are a gifted teacher.

Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

 2007/7/8 7:26









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Phil, if we can't "change Fathers" how can we go from being children of the devil to being children of God, from having our Father be the devil to having our Father be God?

Scripture clearly says you can "change fathers", otherwise sinners could not repent and saints could not backslide.

 2007/7/8 7:28









 Re:

I am curious to know how the OSAS crowd handles this passage.

Romans 6:15-23
15 What then? Shall we commit an act of sin because we are not under law, but under grace? Certainly not.
16 Do you not know that when you surrender yourselves as slaves to any one to obey him, you are his slaves whom you obey; whether it be sin, whose end is death, or obedience, whose end is righteousness?
17 But God be thanked that you who were once the slaves of sin have obeyed from your hearts that type of teaching to which you were appointed;
18 and being set free from sin, you became the slaves of righteousness -
19 I speak in these homely figures because of the weakness of your fleshly nature - just as you once surrendered your faculties into slavery to impurity and to all lawlessness, so now you must surrender your faculties into slavery to righteousness, unto deeds of holiness.
20 For when you were the slaves of sin, you were under no subjection to righteousness.
21 What harvest-fruit then had you at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and become slaves of God, the harvest-fruit which you are reaping tends to produce holiness, and it ends is life eternal.
23 FOR THE POOR WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH, BUT THE FREE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS, OUR MASTER.

 2007/7/8 8:15









 Re:

The believers conditional security:

Pauls preaching of the Church at times was encouragement to “continue in the faith” (Acts 14:22) and to “continue in the grace of God”. (Acts 13:43)

Some disciples have backslidden completely and followed Christ no more. (John 6:66)

Paul told Christians, “For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall life.” (Romans 8:13)

Paul warned Christians, "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (Rom 11:21-22)

And again Paul told Christians, “For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end.” (Heb 3:14)

Paul warned the brethren, “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.” (Heb 3:12)

And again Paul speaks of the punishment of a Christian who falls from sanctification, “Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Heb 10:29)

James says, “For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.” (2Pet 2:21)

And James speaks of Christians, “Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that ye which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.” (James 5:19-20)

The only way one of the Brethren, that becomes a backslider, can escape the death of his soul, is by being reconverted unto obedience to Christ. For Jesus told His disciples, that only repented sins were forgivable sins. (Luke 13:3)

 2007/7/8 8:25









 Re:

Quote:

Lazarus1719 wrote:
The believers conditional security:

Pauls preaching of the Church at times was encouragement to “continue in the faith” (Acts 14:22) and to “continue in the grace of God”. (Acts 13:43)

Some disciples have backslidden completely and followed Christ no more. (John 6:66)

Paul told Christians, “For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall life.” (Romans 8:13)

Paul warned Christians, "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (Rom 11:21-22)

And again Paul told Christians, “For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end.” (Heb 3:14)

Paul warned the brethren, “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.” (Heb 3:12)

And again Paul speaks of the punishment of a Christian who falls from sanctification, “Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Heb 10:29)

James says, “For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.” (2Pet 2:21)

And James speaks of Christians, “Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that ye which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.” (James 5:19-20)

The only way one of the Brethren, that becomes a backslider, can escape the death of his soul, is by being reconverted unto obedience to Christ. For Jesus told His disciples, that only repented sins were forgivable sins. (Luke 13:3)



Makes sense to me, Laz, except your use of the word "reconverted". I would rather read "repent" and return to your first Love ala Jesus to the churches in Revelations..Otherwise, right on.

How one can say the Bible speaks otherwise speaks not from Christ, in my estimation? That is why OSAS doctine is a dangerous doctrine to the believer as well as the unbeliever.

 2007/7/8 8:56









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I am glad someone has posted a real live example that we might discuss. I hope those who respond to this will do so with integrity.

Quote:
now about the "if" statements. What those "if" statements show me is what the difference is between real and false converts. Think about it. the NT epistles were written to churches mostly. How will one be able to, as much as it is possible, to distinguish between a real believer and a false convert??? By them continuing in the faith or falling away, for we cannot know a man's heart.


Indeed and nor can we know God's dealings with those we presume to have errored in the way; fallen away [?].
Was the "Prodigal" still not a son? Did he not error? What was his last state?
Quote:
a quick story. Tonight I was talking to a man about Jesus. I asked Him who Jesus was to Him and he said "my Lord and Savior". So I asked, "So, how is Christ living His life through you?"


So you presumptuously bring the man under condemnation with your judgmental remark inferring he didn't live for Christ. Since we all walk in the light we are given, I would have liked to ask you the same question and watch you stumble over it in reply. Most Christians walk in very little light. Some in none at all. Most don't know enough about God's intention for man to even care how much light that have to walk in and what they possess is sufficient.
Quote:
the man had no answer.


Of course not. As long as he sits still you will have your opportunity to bring correction to him, right? While not overlooking the parable of the sower which places some responsibly on the receiver of God’s word, OSAS doesn't teach one needs to change. He might probably still be waiting for Christ to change him, as you are. After all, you say Jesus will do that and yet give no reasons why one needs to mature in Christ except it be for God's pleasure, maybe. And His pleasure you can't explain either. It isn’t taught what His pleasure is by the OSAS crowd. It is given for everyone to just wonder about and guess at. Besides that, you keep wondering when Christ is going to change you and only hope He does so you won’t be left out when he says those words. “ Well done good and faithful servant”. Go figure, He is going to do it and that you don’t have to learn by way the way of the Cross; that you don’t have a responsibility to learn as a child, to become like His Father. But He will say in that day, "well done"? I don’t think so. How can that be?
Quote:
he said that he went to church sometimes and he knew what to say, but it was clear that the man did not know Jesus.


And what would have persuaded you he did? What yardstick are you measuring by? That's my concern. You say Jesus does it all and then expect something from him to convince you?
Quote:
...those "if" statements help me to discern if a person who professed Christ may be a true believer or not.


Unless you have the “Gift of Discernment, a Pentecostal thing which you probably also reject, I don't believe that is your call to make.

Because of the incomplete gospel being preached, many see no urgency to advance in Christ, they are NOT taught its reason or necessity. Christians neglect their salvation because of a belief that Christ will, regardless of the degree of unfaithfulness and lack of seeking with the whole heart, redeem them in that day. They are fools in their thinking, made so by their own uncrucified disposition and a preaching that accommodates their presumption..
Quote:
about Demas. I understand what you mean. I say he wasn't saved, you say he was. Who knows right?? That is why I used 1 john 2:19 on that one. He was among them, but his going away made it manifest that he was not one of them. That’s just my take on it.


By that you indeed must believe in the “Magic wand” of God that one can’t ever recant their profession of faith. That's just more from an error ridden doctrine. Paul infers Demas was a Christian by calling him a “fellow laborer”. Surely Paul would know, eh? Perhaps Paul was confused? Many were the Christians who later recanted when times got tough. Can you deny that? Can you not see the necessity of the need for the WHOLE gospel message to be preached; the knowledge of the WHOLE Armor of God to be clothed in? How will the neglectful escape in that day?
Quote:
About Hebrews 6. I will try not to write a super long explanation about it. I believe that this is talking about people who have seen the truth of God (been enlightened). They have tasted the heavenly gift. on the cross, Jesus tasted the wine mixed with gall, but did not drink it. In the same way, I believe this person tasted the heavenly gift, but did not fully "drink it".

What!!!?? That’s gross distortion! For beginners, how in the world would anyone equate the Holy Spirit with GALL and VINEGAR??!
Quote:
....a partaker of the Holy Spirit. This word can either mean a close companion or just an associate.


No, IT CAN"T! A close associate doesn’t ever partake ever of the Holy Spirit. Show us a “close associate of the Holy Spirit” in the scriptures, maybe I am wrong. Perhaps you have a proof text?

Sorry, I can’t go on……….. its too wrought with the results of error in doctrine.

I would like to know what books you have in your library, Phil.

 2007/7/8 12:58









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Omley said:

Quote:
No, IT CAN"T! A close associate doesn’t ever partake ever of the Holy Spirit. Show us a “close associate of the Holy Spirit” in the scriptures, maybe I am wrong. Perhaps you have a proof text?



Phil, the proof text is in the beginning of Hebrews 3&4, that will take you back to coming out of Egypt and going into the promise land.

Remember Hebrews is talking to Jews in a language Jews understand.

The Manna, the water coming from the Rock, the Parting of the Sea, were not ALL those who came out of Egypt partakers and companions of the Power of the Holy Spirit in these things? The GLORY of the Lord filled the Temple, but did not indwell the people. Were they all partakers, and Baptized into MOSES...Not Christ. Yet, when it came right down to it, how many were not allowed to enter the Promise land...to us Christ Himself? How many DIED IN THEIR SIN in the wilderness. After seeing ALL those miracles, and partaking of those miracles...did not all eat and drink? Yes they did, but because of teh hardness of their hearts and because they did not have faith to enter in, they were forbiden to enter. Hebrews 3&4 say, they were preached the Gospel as we, yet because they did not have FAITH, they did not enter in.

(All scripture is for instruction, reproof, in rightly dividing the word of truth).

All those NOW who enter into the Holy of Holies, through the Blood of Jesus Christ, crucified with Christ (parallels the Jordan Cross)our cross from death to resurrection life...enter in. Do you know what immediately happened afterword? They were all circumcised....representing Colossians 2,
We now are Baptized Into The Body of Christ, by that same self spirit who raised us up with Christ when we were Born Again. And through the Blood of the Everlasting Covenant, verse 9 in Hebrews 6 say we have "better" things to accompany US in our salvation...Christ in you, the Hope of Glory!!!


Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

 2007/7/8 13:51









 Re:

Quote:

Katy-did wrote:
Omley said:
Quote:
No, IT CAN"T! A close associate doesn’t ever partake ever of the Holy Spirit. Show us a “close associate of the Holy Spirit” in the scriptures, maybe I am wrong. Perhaps you have a proof text?



Phil, the proof text is in the beginning of Hebrews 3&4, that will take you back to coming out of Egypt and going into the promise land.

Remember Hebrews is talking to Jews in a language Jews understand.



Therefore none of what is written in the book given as instruction for us, right?

Quote:
The Manna, the water coming from the Rock, the Parting of the Sea, were not ALL those who came out of Egypt partakers and companions of the Power of the Holy Spirit in these things? The GLORY of the Lord filled the Temple, but did not indwell the people. Were they all partakers, and Baptized into MOSES...Not Christ. Yet, when it came right down to it, how many were not allowed to enter the Promise land...to us Christ Himself? How many DIED IN THEIR SIN in the wilderness. After seeing ALL those miracles, and partaking of those miracles...did not all eat and drink? Yes they did, but because of teh hardness of their hearts and because they did not have faith to enter in, they were forbiden to enter. Hebrews 3&4 say, they were preached the Gospel as we, yet because they did not have FAITH, they did not enter in.



Nonsense!!! You probably also suppose they went to hell? What books are your getting this from, old girl?

Quote:
(All scripture is for instruction, reproof, in rightly dividing the word of truth).



OH, now it is for us and not just the Hebrews? I see.

Quote:
All those NOW who enter into the Holy of Holies, through the Blood of Jesus Christ, crucified with Christ (parallels the Jordan Cross)our cross from death to resurrection life...enter in. Do you know what immediately happened afterword? They were all circumcised....representing Colossians 2,
We now are Baptized Into The Body of Christ, by that same self spirit who raised us up with Christ when we were Born Again. And through the Blood of the Everlasting Covenant, verse 9 in Hebrews 6 say we have "better" things to accompany US in our salvation...Christ in you, the Hope of Glory!!!



What a convoluted mixer of irrationality. This because of OSAS persuasion; picking and choosing the scriptures what suits them.


 2007/7/8 14:19









 Re:

Ormly,

Quote:
Therefore none of what is written in the book given as instruction for us, right?



It's absolutely written for us. Remember 1st, salvation is *OF* the Jews, not for the Jews. Please know the difference. Gentiles are PARTAKERS of the Covenants of promise...Remember?

Hebrews from beginning to end is all OT, a pattern made with hands, who is Christ made without hands. OT reveals the NT, NT fulfills the OT.

Quote:
Nonsense!!! You probably also suppose they went to hell? What books are your getting this from, old girl?



Ormly, are you saying you don't believe anyone will go to hell? Where was Lazarus in speaking to those on in Abraham's Bosom, saying...it's as hot as Phoenix over here, go warn my family! Where was he?

Quote:
OH, now it is for us and not just the Hebrews? I see.



Can you climb over another way? Can you come in to the Holy of Holies another way? Did Jesus die for your sin too? Of Coarse it is. Why was Paul an Apostle to the Gentiles.....so they could hear the Good News too I hope!

Quote:
What a convoluted mixer of irrationality. This because of OSAS persuasion.



Ormly, the Word of God is not irrational. God has laid a wonderful foundation of truth from Genesis to Revelation.

There are wonderful truths in Joshua, the land of Milk and Honey, Christ Himself. He drives out the ITES...He goes before and we follow. Just as He said in the Gospels, Follow Me.

I'm sorry Ormly you have the pride of the Amorites& **Edited (Look in strongs Hebrew 567&559) still eating away at you. Please let the Lord drive them off an out of your attitude. Surrender your pride and attitude to Him, humbling yourself and admit that YOU don't have all the answers. And that those who don't say things EXACTLY the way you want them to say and understand as you do, you scoff and hiss and insult. May God break that pride off your back. In Jesus Name AMEN!

Love in Christ
Katy-did :-D

 2007/7/8 14:57





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