Hey LoveHim,

Thanks so much for your reply. i really appreciate your tactful ness in answering. i lack that sometimes, as you could see. :-)

i see, reading back over my post, that i took too strong of an approach to what i was saying. i'm sorry for being to dogmatic. Though i still believe what i said, it was not right of me to write in that way. i appologise again.

Well, i can see your point in the Revelation Verses. i would see it as somthing that is addressed to, yes, he that overcometh. But it is one of those "if" promises (if you know what i mean...) That is just how i would veiw the immediate context. :-)

One statement that i would like to clarify, if not withdraw, is the one about leaving SI... :-) That was one of those bang-slam-crash kinda statements that i thought might inspire some thought, but it did the opposite, so i want to say sorry for that too. i guess i just don't see how we can have all the warnings in scripture about falling from grace, and falling away, etc. and not think that it is possible. It just seems to me to be pretty clear, but i'm not an authoritative voice! :-D

i don't think you have any more evidence to say that Demas wasn't a true believer than i would to say he was, except that Paul mentions him in another epistle as a fellow laboror: Philemon 1:24

It would seem clear to me that if he is mentioned with the others, he is as the others.

Now, all of this would have not bearing, and you would be able to say that he was not a believer, if the scriptures do indeed say that a true believer would never turn back. Again, it would make a difference if they say that a true beliver could turn back. So, this point is not worth debating, if neither foundation is agreed upon! :-) i wish i would have realized this sooner, or i wouldn't have brought it up in the earlier post... Lord, help me to think these things through before i post them!

About those who have truly backslidden away (Hebrews 6), the verses later on, about the ground drinking in the rain, and bringing forth plants, explain when you know a person has fallen away to the point of no return. If there is not fruit, that means they have fallen away. But if there is no good growth even after the living water is poured upon it, and it continues that way, you know that it is too far, if i could put it in such terms. Perhaps i'm wrong there. i would definitely lokve to hear your veiw on this chapter. Maybe email me, if you don't want to post it onto a thread. i'd like to see it!

God, who's Spirit does move us to action, will not force us to do what we are unwilling to. If we admit that we can sin, because of selfish desires that we make, or being decieved, then it would harken to me that this is a smaller scale of what could happen if we continue in it. If we "fall from grace" Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. The book of Galations is written to believers, not to unconverted souls. His warning is that Christ is become of none effect to them. They needed to repent.

As for me "not liking" your answers, it is not that i don't like them, i simply don't have the same view! :-) i really appreciate your heart there. Thanks.

Ormly, sorry, i must've wrote wrong, because i agree with what you said about Holiness. i agree with what you said. But i just had a caution that we should seek the One who will make us holy, not the holiness He births in us. i believe in sanctification. i should've been more clear.


Thanks all for your replies and reminders. i need the brotherhood.

In Christ,
-nathan

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Nathan

Ormly Wrote

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Nathan

And the beat goes on :-)
Yaw folks be nice now Jesus is watching. ;-)
And by the way some here say Jesus can't change well he changed my life so he can still change. :-)

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Bill

Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

Who was justified?

New testament;
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Old testament;
Hsa 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Old, destroyed

New, grow

What is the difference? New; The Holy Spirit as teacher, Jesus Christ Himself in you.

In Christ: Phillip

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Phillip

I did not take the time to read all of the previous posts on this subject.


But this is a quistion that you can niether lean to hard on the "once Saved Always Saved" nor on the side that you can loose your salvation.

I Like the line: Once sved obviosly saved!

For is not it true when Christ is in us we will not be able to hide it?

Why would we want to pardon the evil of the world but at the same time protect them who are weak/sensitive among us.

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James Hargett

dear nathan,

let me just start out by saying thanks for being able to disagree about this subject like brothers in the Lord should be able to. thanks for not acting like your view is the only view and everyone else is stupid or ignorant for belieeving something else (there are some that do that ya know). :-)

i understand about how you wrote that post. when you believe something passionately, then words tend to be dogmatic and aggressive. i totally understand brother. it is no problem..

now about the "if" statements. what those "if" statements show me is what the difference is between real and false converts. think about it. the NT epistles were written to churches mostly. how will one be able to, as much as it is possible, to distinguish between a real believer and a false convert??? by them continuing in the faith or falling away. for we cannot know a man's heart.

a quick story. tonight i was talking to a man about Jesus. i asked Him who Jesus was to Him and he said "my lord and savior". so i asked "so, how is Christ living His life through you?" the man had no answer. he said that he went to church sometimes and he knew what to say, but it was clear that the man did not know Jesus. those "if" statements help me to discern if a person who prefessed Christ may be a true believer or not.

once again, don't worry about the SI comment. i'm sure that you meant it well.

about demas. i understand what you mean. i say he wasn't saved, you say he was. who knows right?? that is why i used 1 john 2:19 on that one. he was among them, but his going away made it manifest that he was not one of them. that's just my take on it.

about hebrews 6. i will try not to write a super long explanation about it. i believe that this is talking about people who have seen the truth of God (been enlightened). they have tasted the heavenly gift. on the cross, Jesus tasted the wine mixed with gall, but did not drink it. in the same way, i believe this person tasted the heavenly gift, but did not fully "drink it". a partaker of the Holy Spirit. this word can either mean a close campanion or just an associate. i believe that the people described were the latter. they were ones who had heard the truth. they were maybe participators with true believers and so they had seen the Holy Spirit work in lives. they had tasted of it, but did not drink it. they were ones who may have even had the Lord do things in their life, but were not saved. here is why i believe this. in the NT, people who bear no fruit are always referred to as false believers (matt 3:8-10; matt 7:15-23; matt 12:33-35). the verses immediately following this passage say that there was the ground that bore fruit and the ground that bore thorns and briars (no fruit) whose end is to be burnt with fire. i believe that this is showing us how when God does His work, the true believers will produce fruit (john 15) and the ones who don't produce any fruit, but rather bad fruit (thorns and briars) and have no life in them, they will be cast away to the fire. they are false believers.

i understand that some will agree with this and some may not. the question is nathan, are you looking at it with a motive?? are you making it say what you've always assumed it did or always wanted it to say?? (i hope the questions are not coming out mean. i am just asking)

i used to preach for 5-6 years that believer could fall away and walk away from salvation. personally, after really having no ulterior motive, i simply read and prayed and studied and let the Lord do whatever He wanted to in my heart. i am not saying that anyone who disagrees do not know God or that thay are not listening to Him. i am just saying, continue to read the word with no other motive than to listen to His voice and follow Him (the 2 marks of His sheep).

finally, about galatians and "falling from grace". what paul was telling them was that in their life, they had given into the judiazers and were putting themselves back under the law. he was saying that if one puts themselves back under the law, then in their life, they have fallen from grace. he did not say that they were unbelievers, on the contrary, he continues to call them brothers (5:11,13). i have personally done that and many believers have as well. we start out born again, trusting simply in Christ for His righteousness and holiness. then little by little we begin to put ourselves back under the law in our lives (gal 3:1-3; 4:9-11). then the Lord has to open our eyes again to see the true riches we have in Christ, what was done and accomplished on the cross, how wretchedly we are in the flesh and that only through Him living His life through us can we truly walk in the Spirit.

i hope that i did not bore you to death brother, but i wanted to actually answer some questions a little better than just a quick response.

once again, love you man.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

He is the only One that can make us Holy. Not what we do but what He does in us to give us the wisdom to be what God wants from son's of God. To love Him the way Jesus loved Him. In loving Him we are Holy, for Christ fulfilled the whole Law because He loved His Father. That is what Christ in us can do through us if we trust in His wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, (Holiness) and redemption. (the Cross and His resurrection power) Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

In Christ: Phillip

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Phillip

Quote;

"For is not it true when Christ is in us we will not be able to hide it?"

Nor change Fathers, No man can change biological fatherhood. No man can change The Fatherhood of God either, by the Seed of the Father and Jesus Christ in us we are son's. That was up to the Father, not the child. My earthly father is still my earthly father no matter what I do. The same is for God the Father, we may try to change names, be adopted legally, run away, but that does not change the Seed. The Father's Seed is not something He takes lightly, look what He did to make it possible to put that Seed in ones of His choice. We are but the receivers of that Seed and we who are of the Father and His Spirit, will come forth in Christ in those that believe and are chosen. In Fatherhood the Father chooses the time and place, the bride is the receiver and agrees.

In Christ: Phillip

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Phillip