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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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PosterThread
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

dear forrest,

like i've said before, i completely understand your position, i just respectfully disagree with it.

i was listeening to a sermon on the radio and this brother was explaining john chapter 10. and he said that the puritians used to say "the sheep of God are branded with 2 marks. much like cattle is branded with a mark, so God's sheep are branded with 2 marks. one mark is on their ear and another mark is on their feet." my sheep HEAR My voice and they FOLLOW Me. these are the marks of true believers in Christ. because they have been given Christ (eternal life), they HEAR God's voice and they FOLLOW Him. that is the difference between real believers and false converts. many may hear His voice but do not follow and many follow in actions, but do not hear Him nor know Him. but true born again of the Spirit believers are placed in union with him, identified with His death and resurrection, seated with Him in heavenly places, born again of incorruptible seed, given the Spirit as a guarantee and branded for Christ on their ears and feet; that we may hear His voice and follow Him.

"every good tree produces good fruit and every bad tree produces bad fruit"

"not everyone that says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father"

"everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice are like those whose house if founded upon the rock.. but everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like one who built their house upon the sand."

i quoted these scriptures to show you that Jesus is telling us that true believers WILL produce good fruit, they WILL do the will of the Father, they WILL hear his voice and put them into practice.

true believers WILL do these things because they have been truly born again and His Holy Spirit lives in them CAUSING them to walk in His ways. He works through our faith (as imperfect as it is) and continues to lead us to the Father.

much like a regular shepherd, the Good Shepherd knows His sheep. He has marked us and given us eternal life and we will never perish. no one can or will snatch them out of His hand.

love you guys.

 2007/7/7 10:24Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Katy-did wrote:
Quote:
How do we keep our faith? The Holy Spirit tests you in your faith by asking you to please Him by obeying Him. And to be sure you understand each stage of your spiritual growth, He keeps pressing the pace until you fail.



Quote:
If you fail the test, He'll keep testing you. If you keep failing long enough, He will stop picking you up, dusting you off, explaining it all again to you, and leave you in your failure.




Forrect, do you have any scripture to back this up. I don't want to see OT scripture though. What we have and what they had are not the same.

There is more than enough NT scripture to disqualify what you are saying.

Jesus Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith. He is our Alpha and Omega, First and Last and Beginning and End of us. We are complete In Him, which include the middle part, that some say is up to us.

James says the testing is for our perfecting or maturity.

Peter says the testing and fellowship is to pour acid on our old flesh nature, habits, and attachments to this world. *1st John qualifies these(the pride of life, lust of the eyes, and lust of the flesh) is of the world.

Paul says in Galatians, those who are Christs have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Abraham failed miserably in his test of waiting 75 + years for God's promise of the promised child, and went about with Sarah's hand maiden and produced his own child, thinking he had to fulfill that promise in his own flesh and own way. He failed, failed, failed. Did God give Abraham up? NO! Did Abraham and Sarah in fact have that PROMISED Child, Isaac...a total miracle, seeing Sarah was past age and barren?

God has to bring us to the complete end of ourselves, our pride, self effort, in order to show in us,and reveal in us and to us , His power, His Life, and His Promises that are unfailing. God cannot lie. When we fall totally flat on our face, and just can't do it anymore....Praise God...Now that you are out of the way...He can and He will.

Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)



If you don't understand what Forrest said I would question my knowledge of Jesus Christ, if I were you. You obviously have no revelation of him to say we are to be out of the way because to be in "The Way" is His purpose for out lives ---- that we become as He is. You wish to understand our salvation to be some magic wand God passes over us and wallah, we ae changed and the sins we then commit are no more to be concerned about. Thats nonsense. It doesn't work that way.

To all: this will be also willfully ignored by Katy. I expect it will be. However, perhaps there are others who may benefit, from what Forrest has attempted to say with regards to the sanctification process.. We are saved to be made Holy. That's the process of becoming a son, the "way of the cross". No one who correctly reads their Bible should have questions about that.

 2007/7/7 10:25









 Re:

Ormly said:

Quote:
If you don't understand what Forrest said I would question my knowledge of Jesus Christ, if I were you. You obviously have no revelation of him to say we are to be out of the way because to be in "The Way" is His purpose for out lives ---- that we become as He is.



Omley,
Why did Paul Say, When I am weak, He is strong?
Why did Paul say, No LONGER *I* BUT CHRIST?
Why did Paul say, PUT OFF the Old man and Put on the New?

Do you believe God is re-constructing our old sin nature, our old man?

Do you believe we are a NEW Creation in Christ?

Do you think both you and Christ can occupy the throne in your heart (giving yourself Glory for His work in you?).

It is you my friend who does not understand.

Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

 2007/7/7 11:26
JesusIsMyLrd
Member



Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 119
Iowa, USA

 Re:

Quote:
Forrect, do you have any scripture to back this up. I don't want to see OT scripture though. What we have and what they had are not the same. There is more than enough NT scripture to disqualify what you are saying. Jesus Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith. He is our Alpha and Omega, First and Last and Beginning and End of us. We are complete In Him, which include the middle part, that some say is up to us. James says the testing is for our perfecting or maturity. Peter says the testing and fellowship is to pour acid on our old flesh nature, habits, and attachments to this world. *1st John qualifies these(the pride of life, lust of the eyes, and lust of the flesh) is of the world. Paul says in Galatians, those who are Christs have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Abraham failed miserably in his test of waiting 75 + years for God's promise of the promised child, and went about with Sarah's hand maiden and produced his own child, thinking he had to fulfill that promise in his own flesh and own way. He failed, failed, failed. Did God give Abraham up? NO! Did Abraham and Sarah in fact have that PROMISED Child, Isaac...a total miracle, seeing Sarah was past age and barren? God has to bring us to the complete end of ourselves, our pride, self effort, in order to show in us,and reveal in us and to us , His power, His Life, and His Promises that are unfailing. God cannot lie. When we fall totally flat on our face, and just can't do it anymore....Praise God...Now that you are out of the way...He can and He will. Love in Christ Katy-did




i would like to comment on a few things said here.

1. Katy said that she didn't want to see any OT from Forrest. She then went on to quote some from the life of Abraham. Please check your consistancy. You should not use methods of debate that you will not allow the other to use. i would also disagree with you on them "having somthing different" than us today. If the writer of Hebrews thought the way you did, we wouldn't have half of the book. Yes, they didn't see the promise, but they believed God and it was counted to them for righteousness.

2. You said that Forrest didn't have any scripture to back up what she was saying. That is not true. Though Forrest didn't give chapter and verse, i will here. i have brought up twice in this forum these verses, but they keep getting ignored. i have added some more since then: hear the Word of the LORD, as it is writen, and so speaks truth into the compromising heart:

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Ti 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

There is a falling away that can happen, after we resist, through selfish lusts and compromise.

If you think that we will be continually going onward if you have been converted, with no way of falling back into perdition, you can leave this website right now, because you don't need the preaching on it about revival, and walking with God. There would be no need for most of the NT if it were thus.

3. Those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh... this does not say that the Christian is eternally secure. If there is a Christian that falls away, of course he is not going to be Christ's, nor will he be crucifying the flesh. Think about that for a while, and give an honest answer.

4. You said,
"Peter says the testing and fellowship is to pour acid on our old flesh nature, habits, and attachments to this world. *1st John qualifies these(the pride of life, lust of the eyes, and lust of the flesh) is of the world."

What is the point of this if we don't need to be kept from falling away?

4. To be out of the way doesn't mean we are inactive. It simply means that our will is given over to Him. Our purposes are given over to Him. Our will is given over to Him. Yes, there needs to be a point when we realize that in our own strength, there is nothing that we can do of ourselves. i'm not saying we do nothing. We must act in God's strength, not in ours.

5. Ormly, you wrote:
To all: this will be also willfully ignored by Katy. I expect it will be. However, perhaps there are others who may benefit, from what Forrest has attempted to say with regards to the sanctification process.. We are saved to be made Holy. That's the process of becoming a son, the "way of the cross". No one who correctly reads their Bible should have questions about that.

i would like to comment on the statement you made about why we are saved. It seems to me that when we are saved, we are saved for the purpose of restoration to God. He desires to make our relationship with Him like as it was in the Garden of Eden, though not exactly. We are saved, ultimately, for God's glory. We were created for thus. Then through this, we are made holy, we are made a witness for Him to the world. So, what do we make the focus of our life? The focus, seeing these things that we have talked about already in this paragraph, should be to know Him, and to be found in Him. Once we personally know the God of heaven, the Saviour of creation, and the Holy Spirit of truth, all else will fall into place. That is to be our main focus. Not our only, but our main. At the root of evangelism, there is the relationship with God, our heart beating with His. At the root of holiness, there is the relationship with God, our desire to please our Father. Etc.


God bless. Please, look to Jesus, and take no offense, for His sake.

Thank's for reading.

All to Jesus, Jesus to all,
-nathan


_________________
Nathan

 2007/7/7 11:36Profile









 Re:

JESUS IS MY LORD SAID:

Quote:
1. Katy said that she didn't want to see any OT from Forrest. She then went on to quote some from the life of Abraham. Please check your consistancy. You should not use methods of debate that you will not allow the other to use.




I apologize for not clarifying that. Thank you for that correction.

I do however want to show that Abraham is in the NT, not just the Old. And our connection to Abraham in faith... That was my point. I guess I failed to connect and now I will do so.



Isaiah 41:8
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Isaiah 51:2
Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.

Matthew 1:1
The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Matthew 1:2
Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

Matthew 1:17
So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
Matthew 3:9
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Matthew 8:11
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:26
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Luke 1:55
As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

Luke 1:73
The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

Luke 3:8
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Luke 3:34
Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,

Luke 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Luke 16:22
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 16:25
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luke 16:29
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Luke 16:30
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luke 19:9
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

Luke 20:37
Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

John 8:33
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

John 8:37
I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

John 8:39
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

John 8:40
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

John 8:52
Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

John 8:53
Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

John 8:57
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

Acts 3:25
Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Acts 7:8
And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.


Acts 7:32
Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

Acts 13:26
Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

Romans 4:1
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? ****NOTHING…ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:9
Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Romans 4:12
And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Romans 4:13
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 9:7
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Romans 11:1
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 Corinthians 11:22
Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

Galatians 3:6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Galatians 3:9
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Galatians 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 4:22
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Hebrews 2:16
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Hebrews 6:13
For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,


Hebrews 7:5
And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Hebrews 7:6
But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

Hebrews 7:9
And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Love in Christ
Katy-did



:-)

 2007/7/7 12:13









 Re:

I believe the better phrase is if saved always saved!!!!

 2007/7/7 12:24
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

brother nathan,

i appreciate you posting your questions, scriptures and comments. i m not one who knows it all, but maybe i can answer some questions for you. you may not like the answers, as i didn't agree with everything you wrote, but please hear me out and then respond.

rev 3- who is this promise adressed to?? to him who overcometh right. next the question would be, who is he that overcometh??

1 john 5:4 "for whatever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith".

1john 5:5 "who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God"

so we see that he who is born of God overcometh the world and he that overcometh will not have His name blotted out. why? because he overcometh.

now about demas. brother nathan can you say that demas was truly born again?? he was a professed believer who was helping paul, but do we know that he was truly converted. i say that because he reminds me much of a judas type that looks right, but his turning back made manifest that he was one of them at all. (i john 2:19)

i posted this in another thread, but it applies.

if we lived in the day of Jesus, we would have probably said about judas...

* he must be so close to God to walk with God's Son and be his disciple.

* did you see how judas and the others casted out demons, healed the sick, and preached the good news.

* wow, judas is so faithful that Jesus made him His treasurer. he's gotta be saved.

and yet Jesus said, "did I not choose you 12 and yet one of you is a devil".

a devil, brother nathan, a devil. Jesus called judas a devil.

now brother nathan, should i leave this website because i believe that a true believer will persevere to the end?? that God will through His Holy Spirit, cause the born again believer to persevere to the end and overcome?? if that is the case, we should not have men like spurgeon or finney or johnathon edwards on this website. i would never ask that someone who believes that a believer can lose their salvation to leave the website, come on brother..

if you want, i can address hebrews 6 in my next post, but i don't want to make this an extremely long post that no one will want to actually read. but i will pose this question to you brother. if hebrew 6 means what you think it means, then why do you or others try to "bring back to salvation" the "fallen christian" that has "lost his salvation"?? and how do you know where the line is between backsliding and losing their salvation??

thank you so much nathan for your questions and scriptures. i can only hope that i may have answered them (even if you don't like my answers). love you man.

dear ormly,

we talked before about present adoption and future adoption, maybe we should explore this on a new thread. i would like to talk to you further about it, if you will tolerate my ignorance :-)

love you guys.

 2007/7/7 12:26Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
I believe the better phrase is if saved always saved!!!!



yes, moe-mac, maybe it is. :-)

 2007/7/7 12:30Profile









 Re:

The proof is in the pudding.

Circumcision on the "8th day" was a sign,(the putting off of the flesh) then hidden, now revealed. The 8th day is the Day of Jesus Christ...The New Creation. Jesus said of Abraham in John...Abraham rejoiced to see *MY DAY*, he saw it and was glad. What did Abraham see? He saw the resurrection in a vision when he was about to sacrifice Isaac. Hebrews 11.



John in Revelation 1 says, I was in the Spirit on the *LORDS DAY*. Not to be confused with "The day of the Lord, which is the day of wrath.

Colossians 2:3In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

5For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

********11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

********12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

 2007/7/7 12:44









 Re:

Quote:

JesusIsMyLrd wrote:
Quote:

5. Ormly, you wrote:
To all: this will be also willfully ignored by Katy. I expect it will be. However, perhaps there are others who may benefit, from what Forrest has attempted to say with regards to the sanctification process.. We are saved to be made Holy. That's the process of becoming a son, the "way of the cross". No one who correctly reads their Bible should have questions about that.

i would like to comment on the statement you made about why we are saved. It seems to me that when we are saved, we are saved for the purpose of restoration to God. He desires to make our relationship with Him like as it was in the Garden of Eden, though not exactly. We are saved, ultimately, for God's glory. We were created for thus. Then through this, we are made holy, we are made a witness for Him to the world. So, what do we make the focus of our life? The focus, seeing these things that we have talked about already in this paragraph, should be to know Him, and to be found in Him. Once we personally know the God of heaven, the Saviour of creation, and the Holy Spirit of truth, all else will fall into place. That is to be our main focus. Not our only, but our main. At the root of evangelism, there is the relationship with God, our heart beating with His. At the root of holiness, there is the relationship with God, our desire to please our Father. Etc.


God bless. Please, look to Jesus, and take no offense, for His sake.

Thank's for reading.

All to Jesus, Jesus to all,
-nathan



Why would Jesus say, "Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect"? Is Holiness not included in being made perfect?

 2007/7/7 19:52





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