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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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PosterThread









 Re:

Quote:
I believe if someone "falls away", then they were never truly saved to begin with.

Then why all the warnings given by Jesus, Paul, James, Peter and others?

 2007/5/19 8:42









 Re:

Mahoney said:

Quote:
See, my contention with this whole debate is that people argue that Christians must do this and that and must be this and that, in order to REMAIN SAVED.

It's not a matter of "remaining saved", thats not really the issue. The issue is remaining righteous before God. Our salvation is based entirely on the finish work of Christ. That my friends is what we need to contend for. We can slip into works very easily and have our minds deceive us into thinking that our works is what made us righteous.

Someone might say, "Do we do nothing then?", No! Exibiting faith in Christ is a chore all it's own. We wrestle with principalities and powers, wicked spirits in high places, trying to convince us that we are not righteous before God by simple faith, that we need to do more on top of that. If we do more on top of that, it's a clear indication that we have not reckon ourselves to be dead unto sin.

Once we recognize that we are dead and that becomes a reality in our soul and spirit, there will be a resurrection.
Quote:
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

 2007/5/19 9:08
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Here it is.


Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

"Not justified by the works of the law" Not justified by anything or anyone except Jesus Christ. God has made this Christ In us our justification and righteousness, for justified is;
Strong's Greek Dictionary
1344. dikaioo
Search for G1344 in KJVSL
dikaiow dikaioo dik-ah-yo'-o
from 1342; to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent:--free, justify(-ier), be righteous.
Christ is our justifier, that is the Christ that is birthed in us by Incorruptable Seed, regenerating, sanctifing, the believer from the nature of Satan to the nature of God by the Christ in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus , who of God is made unto us wisdom , and righteousness , and sanctification , and redemption :

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1343. dikaiosune
Search for G1343 in KJVSL
dikaiosunh dikaiosune dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay
from 1342; equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification:--righteousness.

Sanctification, this is our new nature by the Christ in us: Strong's Greek Dictionary
38. hagiasmos
Search for G38 in KJVSL
agiasmoV hagiasmos hag-ee-as-mos'
from 37; properly, purification, i.e. (the state) purity; concretely (by Hebraism) a purifier:--holiness, sanctification.

Satan out, Christ In, old nature, Satan's, New Nature, God's in Christ Jesus.

Not a people of God but of Satan.
But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:


1Pe 2:10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This is our mercy. "Created in Christ Jesus", "His workmanship" "Grace and Faith" and that not of ourselves, "it is the Gift of God"

What is "it"? Strong's Greek Dictionary
1435. doron
Search for G1435 in KJVSL
dwron doron do'-ron
a present; specially, a sacrifice:--gift, offering.

It is all Christ our all in all that we are in Christ Jesus our Glory. Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

His working, not ours, and His works work in us "mightily". We have now been given the irreversible Gift, for God is not an Indian Giver, is He?

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/5/21 0:43Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved???

I care nothing about works.

I care nothing about how one gets saved.

I am asking, if you stop believing, after you have believed, are you still saved. Does grace extend that far?

For that is what once saved, always saved is stating.

And telling me that if someone stops believing, they were never saved in the first place is not to the point.

OSAS says once saved, always saved. If it not's true in and of itself, please, just say so!

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/21 3:15Profile









 Re:

I just wanted to interject what I believe about what Forrest said. All the OSAS people that I've come across use that very same excuse, "They were never saved in the first place." It is definitely a very small world!

If this excuse is true then I challenge them to admit that they doubt the very Word of God that says...

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

There aren't any qualifers as to who can call upon the name of the Lord and who can't, nope, it's "WHOSOEVER"!!

 2007/5/21 5:55









 Re:

Quote:
I am asking, if you stop believing, after you have believed, are you still saved. Does grace extend that far?



If all you are looking for is an answer to your question, then on the face of it, as stated, I would have to say, no!

But I have a problem with the question because it is a false dichotomy, and, once again, it bases our security in Christ on the strength of man rather than the faithfulness of God.

Quote:
I will re-quote myself with emphasis on the particular words that you all might see that what I said was not subjective at all, but under a specific condition.



The reason it is subjective is because you are placing the security of a believer upon something that is ever-changing, at times wavering, and at sometimes in this walk, can even seem non-existent (even in the greatest among us...Elijah, Moses, Peter, David...). The subjective thing IS OUR FAITH.

I do not like the term OSAS because these days it has a negative connotation. Everybody brings their own perspective into the discussion based upon their own experience within the church.

So the real question is:

Is there security for a believer? And what is the foundation of that security?

I will make it personal.

I believe, according to the scripture, that I am eternally secure in Christ. I am His and He is mine. He is a faithful Husband that will never leave His bride, even if she is unfaithful. He is bound by a covenant the He Himself fulfilled. That is why it is not based upon my faithfulness. He has already fulfilled both sides of the covenant.

I am kept not by my own power or might, but by the Power of God. He will chasten me if I turn aside because He is my Father and I am His son. He will chasten me even if I do not turn aside because I still have a deceitful fleshly nature, and He has promised to conform me into the image of His Son.

I am dependent upon Him for everything...even the knowledge of my sin. My heart is deceitful and wicked and I cannot no know it...He must expose my sin in the light of His Word and through circumstances, situations, and relationships.

The foundation of my security is not based upon my faith in Him, but upon His Great and Precious Promises. Faith is generated in my heart as I read/ hear of His Promises to me. Like Lazarus I am brought, by Him, to places of death, where everything that I am comes to naught. It is at that point that the Promises of God become great and precious.

It is not the amount, or maturity, or greatness of my faith that matters, for, according to Jesus, all that is needed is faith the size of a mustard seed. No, faith would be nothing were it not for the Promises of God.

He is the Alpha and Omega...the Beginning and the End. He is the Author and Finisher of my faith.

He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, etc. All imperfect, sinful, and at times, faithless men, who, at the end of their lives, championed the Grace, Mercy, and Faithfulness of God.

I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. (Ecclesiastes 3:14)





 2007/5/21 9:56
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"""
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

There aren't any qualifers as to who can call upon the name of the Lord and who can't, nope, it's "WHOSOEVER"!!"""

There is a qualifier, it is God that must call before any man can call on Him. Just like Love of God, we cannot love unless He loves us first.
"and in the remnant whom the LORD shallcall."

Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

No love unless He loves us. We cannot be saved unless He saves us. Just like Jesus said He has not lost any that the Father gives Him except the son of perdition to fulfill the scriptures.

God will not give any to Christ then takes them back because of their puny attempt to get away from God. Hebrews 10:38-39 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The saved of the Lord are not those that draw back, neither can they.

Once saved, always saved, for it is not up to man to be saved and those saved will not be lost. John 17:15-17 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

They are kept by the Word of God, that is Jesus Christ Himself and He will loose none.

John 17:12-14 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Was the lost one saved or even believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God.

In Christ: Phillip

Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.





_________________
Phillip

 2007/5/22 3:16Profile
JesusIsMyLrd
Member



Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 119
Iowa, USA

 Re:

Quote:
No love unless He loves us. We cannot be saved unless He saves us. Just like Jesus said He has not lost any that the Father gives Him except the son of perdition to fulfill the scriptures.



God has already loved us in sending His Son... *EDIT* His Love is to all. (John 3:15-17) And as for the "limitation" of Him having to call people before they come to Him, i fully believe it, except for this one thing- mainly- that He calls ALL men:

Joh 12:32
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

So we see that not only is it the Father that draws men, but the Son does to. And herein lies a promise to all, that God has opened the door of salvation for all men to be saved, for He is not willing that any should perish, but accourding to His foreknowledge, He has predestined us to be conformed to His will in obedience...

Now, after we are born again, are we good till death no matter what? i cannot bring myself to believe that. We can give up that gift of God, just as we could take it...

Here is a GOOD sermon by John Wesly that i would reccomend to all:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=6211]On Grieving the Holy Sprit[/url]

God bless you all.
-nathan

*EDIT*= i remvoved a strong statement after considering it, and finding it more offensive than nessesary to the conversation... my appologies to anyone who read it! God bless!


_________________
Nathan

 2007/5/22 8:40Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re: More thoughts on OSAS

Quote:
OSAS says once saved, always saved. If it not's true in and of itself, please, just say so!



If those who will be saved were foreknown from the foundation of the earth, then, by necessity, they were from God's vantage always saved by His grace.

I believe it is summed up well to say that [b]the method which God has chosen to preserve His saints is [i]persevearance[/i][/b], and that being sustained by Himself and cooperated with by His saints.

Falling away altogether would be a demonstration that one had not been cooperative with the Spirit of grace, and would therefore have never received a regenerated nature that is in the sight of God both child, heir, and bride to Him.

The best I can see it, the saved are saved at all times from eternity, while in linear time the "unrevealed saved" are brought out from destruction by the calling to repentance. They are proven by perseverance and declared at the judgment.

How all of this works in federation with human responsibility, I don't know, but I can say this much: no one who abandons faith altogether is called "saved" in scripture; no one who was predestined can ever be lost.

I feel I've added nothing to this discussion. :-(

 2007/5/22 12:48Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4587


 Re:

Hello...

I typically try to avoid such discussions about doctrinal issues that are so hotly debated. There are scriptures on both sides that seem to indicate the validity of each point. We must remember that pure "truth" does not contridict itself.

Have you ever met a person who walked wholeheartedly with the Lord and then fell into a life of sin? Have [u]YOU[/u] ever been tempted to fall into a life of certain sin?

What is the end result for an individual who departs the faith and enters back into the world?
Was that person ever truly saved?
What is the spiritual condition of such an individual?

To claim that a person can live in sin while walking [u]with[/u] Christ is dishonest to the faith. They CANNOT walk together if this person is living in sin. I don't believe that an individual can even HONESTLY PRAY while living in blatant, unrepentent sin. An individual (including a pastor) may pretend that all is well, while they are actually dying on the inside.

Regardless of whether we want to use/justify the term "once saved/always saved" or "once justified/always justified", the Word of God is expressly clear about the end of an individual living in sin. If you are living in blatant, unrepentent sin -- you shall [u]not[/u] inherit the Kingdom of God. To say otherwise is to insult the Spirit of Grace (Hebrews 10:29). The Word of God is also clear that it is indeed possible to depart the faith and run ahead of the Lord (II John 1:8-9).

What is the bottom line in such a discussion?
- Don't die in sin.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2007/5/22 13:07Profile





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