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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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 Re:

Quote:

GrannieAnnie wrote:
Ormly, there's an Art Katz sermon below but I can't listen to it, because my computer is so strangely set up, that I cannot get audio or videos ... very unfortunately.

Have you heard it ? I wonder if someone wouldn't have a transcript of it ?

Sorry again for the large URL.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=10819&commentView=itemComments



Katz is good. I have several downloads of Him. I believe him to be a Universalist. That keeps me on guard and I am careful to know my Bible when weighing his words.

 2007/7/5 5:55
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Here is another section of Scripture which shows us Christ leading a generation of people prior to His incarnation...


Isa 5:1 NOW let me sing to my Well-beloved


A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:


My Well-beloved has a vineyard
On a very fruitful hill.
Isa 5:2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
He built a tower in its midst,
And also made a winepress in it;
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.

Isa 5:3 "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
Isa 5:4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?

Here Scripture points to the fact that Jesus planted the vineyard and everything that could be done was done to make it fruitful, yet it brought wild grapes.


Isa 5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.


When Jesus speaks of the parable of the vinedresser and the vine we see this played out in Isaiah 5.

God is the same always...and He works the same always to preserve a remnant...

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/7/5 7:08Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Here is another example given to us in Scripture which points to how God works in an individual...just like Cain and Abel.

Isa 7:10 Moreover the LORD spoke again to Ahaz, saying,
Isa 7:11 "Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above."
Isa 7:12 But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!"
Isa 7:13 Then he said, "Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also?
Isa 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.[fn2]
Isa 7:15 "Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 "For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.

This section of Scripture is speaking of a Child given to King Ahaz as a sign that God brings to bare what He says...

Before Ahaz's son Hezekiah is old enough to "know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the kings of Syria and Samaria will be overrun by another king.

Do you see the same precept illustrated here? To know good and to know evil is given to all men since Adam and Eve's fall...God requires of men to refuse evil and choose the good.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/7/5 7:17Profile









 Re:

Deleted by me

 2007/7/5 7:57
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

dear forrest,

i completely understand your position. however to stress that the evil one is waiting there always to devour you no matter how closely you've walked with Christ seems almost to me that such a life seems lived more out of fear than by faith. i am not saying that you don't have faith, please i hope you don't get that. it just seems from your post that maybe some who believe that true born again believers can give up their salvation live their life maybe more out of fear to not lose salvation.

i agree that we should be pressing on to the heavenly prize that Christ Jesus has called us to. we should be seeking Him each day, but not out of fear, but from faith. we should continue in the faith, and that continuing and persevering will make manifest that we are children of God. for anyone who believes in persevering of the saints and does not accompany the doctrine with the idea of pursuing and continuing in the faith has only stressed one side.

but along with that, i believe that scripture shows that Christ will not lose those whom the Father has given Him. no one can snatch them out of His hand. you may say, well what if they want to walk away? (1) do we know if they are truly saved? (2) can we look into their soul and say 100% that such a soul was truly born again, or did they have a false conversion and a false faith?? (3) will not God discipine and correct His children??

here is the beauty of the new covenant. He gives us a new heart and a new Spirit within us that CAUSES us to walk in His ways. so many times we could've all said "if only He wasn't there this one time" or " if i woiuld've taken 1 more step", but dear brothers and sisters He was always there and He will continue to work through our faith (as little as it is) and CAUSE us to persevere. yes on our side, we do persevere. "take heed to yourself and to your doctrine. continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you" (1 timothy 4:16). but let us always remember that if we are born again and filled with His Spirit, we do not have to fear walking away or giving up anything, because He will hold us and guide us, rebuke us and encourage us. there is no fear for those who are in Christ Jesus.

so this is what i stress to new believers. that we are to pursue God and trust Him to do the work in us and through us. i tell them of the wonderful blessings and amazing things the Lord has done for us believers and tell them that the word says that if they are truly born again, then they will continue in the faith. that if they are truly born again and converted, He will persevere them through their faith and they will like Christ said "he who endures to the end shall be saved".

 2007/7/5 9:00Profile









 Re:

Quote:

LoveHim wrote:
dear forrest,

i completely understand your position. however to stress that the evil one is waiting there always to devour you no matter how closely you've walked with Christ seems almost to me that such a life seems lived more out of fear than by faith. i am not saying that you don't have faith, please i hope you don't get that. it just seems from your post that maybe some who believe that true born again believers can give up their salvation live their life maybe more out of fear to not lose salvation.



Did Jesus live His life out of fear or faith while in the wilderness? Did not Satan desire for Him to fail?

Quote:
here is the beauty of the new covenant. He gives us a new heart and a new Spirit within us that CAUSES us to walk in His ways. so many times we could've all said "if only He wasn't there this one time" or " if i woiuld've taken 1 more step", but dear brothers and sisters He was always there and He will continue to work through our faith (as little as it is) and CAUSE us to persevere. yes on our side, we do persevere. "take heed to yourself and to your doctrine. continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you" (1 timothy 4:16). but let us always remember that if we are born again and filled with His Spirit, we do not have to fear walking away or giving up anything, because He will hold us and guide us, rebuke us and encourage us. there is no fear for those who are in Christ Jesus.



But He doesn't give anyone a new heart, remember? We still have our old one to deal with; to be changed as we learn of Him. see 1 Pet.1 as a re-cap of past posts stating this.
Quote:
so this is what i stress to new believers. that we are to pursue God and trust Him to do the work in us and through us. i tell them of the wonderful blessings and amazing things the Lord has done for us believers and tell them that the word says that if they are truly born again, then they will continue in the faith. that if they are truly born again and converted, He will persevere them through their faith and they will like Christ said "he who endures to the end shall be saved".



Whatta mean IF they are truly born again, they perservere? Can't you see contradiction in your own words??? Think man!!

 2007/7/5 9:24
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3350
Texas

 Re:

I feel once saved always saved is up to us personally and our "personal" relationship with God, only God knows our hearts so we could discuss this until the rapture and lay every scripture in the Word out here and I feel personally it's in vain, Why? because you or I will never know what God can do or will do "unless of course you can read his mind" by laying out scriptures here your saying hey it's in the Word and God cannot go beyond the Word and make whatever decisions he wants.
If your telling me that the God we serve is limited to his Word only and "must" go by his inspired Word and could not ever make a decision beyond his Word I would have to disagree, Why? because he is Almighty "GOD" trust me he can do what he wants that's my personal belief.


_________________
Bill

 2007/7/5 10:40Profile









 Re:

Quote:

MrBillPro wrote:
I feel once saved always saved is up to us personally and our "personal" relationship with God, only God knows our hearts so we could discuss this until the rapture and lay every scripture in the Word out here and I feel personally it's in vain, Why? because you or I will never know what God can do or will do "unless of course you can read his mind" by laying out scriptures here your saying hey it's in the Word and God cannot go beyond the Word and make whatever decisions he wants.
If your telling me that the God we serve is limited to his Word only and "must" go by his inspired Word and could not ever make a decision beyond his Word I would have to disagree, Why? because he is Almighty "GOD" trust me he can do what he wants that's my personal belief.



I'll tell you you are wrong. God is bound His word. How could anyone believe in a "variable' God. Search the scriptures and prove me wrong, if you can. "He is the same yesterday, today, and forever".

 2007/7/5 10:46
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Ormly,

maybe you could help me understand what you believe the terms born again, new creature in Christ, given a new nature, born of the Spirit, born of incorruptible seed and having the old man crucified with Christ mean for the believer. I can only speculate that these terms are what are meant when someone says we get a new heart at conversion notwithstanding your differences to the application of Ezekiel 36:26 to the individual believer.

 2007/7/5 10:47Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3350
Texas

 Re:

Quote:

Ormly wrote:
I'll tell you you are wrong. God is bound His word. How could anyone believe in a "variable' God. Search the scriptures and prove me wrong, if you can. "He is the same yesterday, today, and forever".



2 Timothy 2:9, reads, " . . . the word of God is NOT BOUND.


_________________
Bill

 2007/7/5 11:11Profile





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