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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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 Re:

Heavy charge there Katy-did.

This Ormly person asked you some questions that you didn't answer and I couldn't find fault in what he wrote above.
Been a "cult" watcher for 30 yr.s too. 8-)

We were created to come into the Image of Christ, not just get saved.

I think before you accuse much more, ya may want to hear all other posters out more, rather than just be a lone Pide Piper on someone else's thread. ;-)

If I believe post-trib, does that make me a SDA or WWCOG ?

Maybe there's something deeper in your contention with him friend ?

Maybe it's just the 'fresher' air down yonder here in N.C. :-D

Don't judge too quickly sis.

Thanks.
annie

 2007/7/1 21:39
JesusIsMyLrd
Member



Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 119
Iowa, USA

 Re:

Greetings to everyone again in Jesus' name! Our surity of hope in eternal life and peace with God!

i kind-of was shocked when i saw that this thread was still going... but then i had to get over my initial reaction, and realize that this is a real doctrinal issue that is very important to, i would think, all who have studied it, and discussed it. i must confess, since the doctrine has been settled in my mind, and i have not studied it out reicently, so that is why i was kinda suprised to see it still being discussed. :)

So, i guess i would like to say something to us who tend toward the Arminian side of things: when we discuss OSAS, we should remember that we are not discussing Calvinism (though it is closely related to this), so let's keep it to the discussion at hand- once we are saved, are we guarenteed that we will be granted entrance into heaven when we die, no matter what we do afterwards? Now, i read a post a minute ago, i forget by who, and they say that if people think that OSAS means that we can do whatever we want, after we're saved, and then get to heaven, that is not the true doctrine of OSAS (If i understood him rightly in his post). i'm not sure i understand that, because i can't see how it could be any other way, with the doctrine having that title. It implies that we could do whatever... but i think i can see the person's point. We often go so far in trying to de-bunk that doctrine that we say things that can be incorrect, ie, putting words into the other person's mouth... i havin't read all the posts, so i'm not sure if that is happening here... please just take a caution- that's all it is. ;-)

Now, here's one thing that i found to be incorrect in my doctrinal wording, in defending my position, that might shed some light on some minds, as it did mine, and may prove that we are in the same mindset as the other, yet don't realize it. It is that we often will say, "Are you kidding? Once you're saved it is possible to loose your salvation! You can't just expect God to let you in if you live like you want still!"
Therein lies a falsity that is in our theology, and saying thus, we turn off the others who see it for what it is. Well, it is more of a falsity in our wording, not nessesarily our theology. We say "loose" salvation. We mean well to say it, trying to communicate that we can give up our salvation, but we fail to say it correctly, and give a false impresion of our true thoughts, and thereby turn people off, because of our poor choice of words. Let's try to say things correctly, and not get stuck in a rut of terminology that is not consistant with our theology. :-)

There is a dear brother in our church that, before he became a member, he was not going to join if we didn't beleive the same thing about OSAS. When we discussed it with him, we came to find out that we believed the same thing, but just used different terminology. He didn't believe that people could loose their salvation, but we believed that you could. After discussing it, we found out that we were using the wrong word to define our theology on the subject. He believed that we could give up our salvation, but not loose it. It just isn't something that we can wake up in the morning and find gone, but something that we can willingly give up, by allowing sin into our lives, allong with compromise, etc. Well, after discussing it for a few hours, we stood corrected, and found a likeminded brother who was more correct in his wording than us!! :-)

Here is the crux of the matter- it is not so much an issue that you can or cannot give up your salvation after you are converted, but what are you living for right now? Is it for the glory of God, or is it for your own desires? Is the deep down motivation of living our lives on this earth for the Glory of God? For Christ who gave Himself a randsome for YOUR sins? For MY sins? What are we doing here, brothers and sisters? What are we doing here? It is for Jesus. Or, at least, it should be. Stand rebuked if nessesary, and repent of cold theological christian religiosity, and ask God for a heart burning for His passions and His heart desires. Let's get ahold of the heart of God, brotheren. It is of utmost importance. UTMOST.

For us to make it as Christians we must continue in the faith, and in the greatest commandment. Jesus was stern in His warning to the Church at Sardis, Revelation 3:1-6. It's there for a reason.

Thanks all for being very balanced and respectful in this forum. From what i've read, it is a good discussion, and there's not a lot of contraversy. Let's keep it that way... :-D


_________________
Nathan

 2007/7/1 21:41Profile









 Re:

GrannyAnnie:

Being conformed to the Image of Jesus Christ…I just posted, and have many times…1 St John and 2nd Corinthians. What did you think I was talking about. However I use Scripture , as scripture teaches scripture.

But the real issue here is:

Here are some nasty One hit wonders coming from Omley to not only me, but others on this post. Where were YOU then GrannyAnnie when this was going on, and now you feel you have a right to comment NOW? Sorry Dear, you’re a little late.


Omley to Katy-did:
I named Chambers. You named no one you plagiarized

Omley to katy-did:
That's three times by my count that you have posted from them....Why don't throw your biased/slanted commentaries away? They are doing you a disservice.
Omley to katy-did:
Those who understand what issues are, may they rebuke you.

Phil to Omley; “if you disagree with me or others, please do more than just quote us and then write a sentence in response. please lay out what you are trying to say so that simple people like me can understand what you are saying.


Omley to Phillip: Please don't misrepresent my words....or mis-apply them.

brother ormly,

Phil to Omley “i don't know why you would say that i wish all that was so. the bible does not lie and that is what the Word says. by faith, i believe the truth and the promises of God. it is and will be "actually" so..”

Oh how you wish all of that was "actually" so.

Omley to Phil “Oh how you wish all of that was "actually" so.”

Omley to Katy-did:

I have no doubt about anything except your ability to understand the scriptures,given your fixation on redemption and what you suppose you so cheaply inherit.


Again Omley to Katy-did:
Doubt?? About what? You believe son-ship is a given. The scripturs declare othewise.
I have no doubt about anything except your ability to understand the scriptures,given your fixation on redemption and what you suppose you so cheaply inherit.

Wow, what a slap in the face to God’s Grace, Jesus sacrifice on the cross.


GrannyAnnie, obviously you don’t have a problem with these comments. I do. They are un-Christlike.

I won’t go back and copy them all, but I do believe it is more than Pride that one has such wonderful knowledge ???, and uses that knowledge to act haughty over others who don’t have what he feels he has. This is not how the Body of Christ interacts with one another. :-(


Love in Christ
Katy Did




 2007/7/1 22:48
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

dear nathan,

i appreciate your post and what you are saying. i was the one who wrote that many (not all) people who oppose OSAS do so because they think that we are saying you can make a decision for Christ and then live anyway you want to. that is not what most people who believe in OSAS believe. as i mentioned earlier in a post, most people who do not believe that you can lose your salvation will call the doctrine "perseverence of the saints". we believe that a truly born again person will not fall away and lose their salvation. they will continue in the faith and persevere until the end because of Him who does the persevering within us.

we are simply working out what He is working within and through us. we who are saved have been born again of incorruptible seed, made a new creation, sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, and He who started is faithful to complete.

my question to those who believe you can lose your salvation is this "if hebrews 6 teaches us that we can lose our salvation, then why do people keep trying to preach and witness to "backsliders" who "lost their salvation"?? i say this because i only know of 1 person who believes that if one "falls away" and "loses their salvation", they cannot be brought back to repentance. but everyone else that i know who believes in "losing you salvation", they believe that one can come to God and get and lose salvation multiple times.. where is that in scripture?? i don't read that anywhere.

just some thoughts for those who look and still wonder why this post is going on..

 2007/7/1 23:03Profile









 Re:

GrannyAnnie: One last thing before I go to sleep here,

Phillip, Phil, Forrest, and myself, use the Word of God to establish truth...not commentaries. The problem with Commentaries is it is second hand knowledge. It's teh Word of God that is living and powerful and sharper than a two edge sword, not commentaries. It's the Word of God that God illuminates to the believer. Much ,if not all we have been saying to Omley is Scripture, that he scoffs at. He has on many occasions scoffed at the New Covenant sealed in the Blood of Jesus Christ.

THAT is a problem. Those who insult the Spirit of Grace, consider the Blood of the Covenant a common thing...HAVE trampled underfoot the Son of God.

That alone will bring the wrath and vengence of God. That is his doing, not mine.

Katy-did

 2007/7/1 23:12
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

dear brothers and sisters,

ok guys c'mon. were brothers and sisters here, so let's try to remember that when we post. i have seen some here write some kinda messed up things to each other and we need to remember most that what we write should always glorify God.

this issue does cause problems if we let it, but we don't have to let satan do that to us. we are brothers and sisters in Christ more than we are anything else, let's keep that in mind.

now this thread is about if a person can or will lose their salvation or not. if anyone has something that they would like to share, please do. but please share out of a heart that truly cares for the person on the other side of the post, not out out of a spirit that only is concerned for ourselves. are we not instructed to put on humility and esteem others better than ourselves??

if anyone would still like to discuss the issue of salvation, i'm in. but if there is just going to be name calling and "special revelation", than i'm out..

love you guys.

 2007/7/1 23:18Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

I don't know where this will go, but Why would the God and Father of Jesus Christ, put Him on a Cross and Kill Him? Why would God then take that resurrected Son and put Him in a person who believes that this Jesus is the Son of God?
Then tell us that this Jesus, before the world ever began was predestinated to this, being in those that believe? God knowing even before He created Adam that no man or woman could live up to His expectations of being a son to Him, including even and exhaled spiritual being who was number one, that is second only to God the Father, that is Satan.

God Knowing all this still had a plan and that plan was to put Himself in these people that could not become son's unless they had His own life in them. Now, comes the part that is obscured, How could this be accomplished and God be Justified in making son's for His house, without being accused of making robots with no free will to choose to love God, even though they had not the capacity to do it on their own.

The mystery, revealed to Paul? This mystery of another person, Jesus Christ being born again in a person who would believe on his own after being convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit and brought to the Faith that it has to be, to be able to believe That this Jesus is the only Hope of salvation.

Then God intending from before the foundation of the World to put the only begotten Person that is the Seed of God into these believers, as He promised by the Seed of Abraham, not seeds but Seed which Is Christ. That they would be born again of that Seed which is the only Incorruptable Seed that could make son's from sinners.

In doing all this, do you think that God would loose any that He put this Seed in? It is God who has made us son's, not the sinner. It is His will.

God's proof, if we believe what He says.

Ephesians 1:1-14 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

How can God go through all this then choose one that could loose what He has given and made each one the Wisdom, Righteousness, Sanctification and Redemption of Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:27-31 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Chosen in Christ, before the foundation of the world, redeemed in Christ, now; sanctified in Christ, being sanctified in Christ and will be sanctified in Christ, righteousness in Christ, now and future, wise in Christ, ordained and accomplished by God the Father to those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God:

2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us

2 Corinthians 1:19-24 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth. Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

In Christ: YEA Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/7/1 23:18Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:


dear phillip,

thank you for staying on track. thank you for your post. thank you for using scripture and reasoning from the Word.

ps. nice name my friend.

 2007/7/1 23:25Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved???

Quote:

JesusIsMyLrd wrote:
Greetings to everyone again in Jesus' name! Our surity of hope in eternal life and peace with God!

i kind-of was shocked when i saw that this thread was still going... but then i had to get over my initial reaction, and realize that this is a real doctrinal issue that is very important to, i would think, all who have studied it, and discussed it. i must confess, since the doctrine has been settled in my mind, and i have not studied it out reicently, so that is why i was kinda suprised to see it still being discussed...Now, i read a post a minute ago, i forget by who, and they say that if people think that OSAS means that we can do whatever we want, after we're saved, and then get to heaven, that is not the true doctrine of OSAS...Now, here's one thing that i found to be incorrect in my doctrinal wording...We say "lose" salvation... We mean well to say it, trying to communicate that we can give up our salvation, but we fail to say it correctly, and give a false impresion of our true thoughts, and thereby turn people off, because of our poor choice of words... After discussing it, we found out that we were using the wrong word to define our theology on the subject. He believed that we could give up our salvation, but not lose it. It just isn't something that we can wake up in the morning and find gone, but something that we can willingly give up, by allowing sin into our lives, along with compromise, etc. Well, after discussing it for a few hours, we stood corrected, and found a likeminded brother who was more correct in his wording than us!!



PRAISE BE TO GOD...SOMEBODY GOT THE DIFFERENCE!

Quote:
Here is the crux of the matter- it is not so much an issue that you can or cannot give up your salvation after you are converted, but what are you living for right now? Is it for the glory of God, or is it for your own desires?



Amen, and Amen.

Thank you for stating what I have been trying to since the day I started this thread.

Many blessings to you,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/7/2 0:18Profile









 Re:

Love in Christ.

O.K. Katy, here is the post I was referring to above. (or on the bottom of pg 19 if this flips a page)

Quote:
Hi Phil,

When one says:
1. We become as Jesus Christ was in the flesh/ and
2. That we are being restored back to what we were before the fall, knowing that doctrine is what Mormons, JW's and many cults believe, mingled with evolving into sonship... this is all cult teaching, mingles with truth.

What you all may not understand is those who know the lingo of cult teaching, can pick up on these things that go over the heads many are not familiar with.

In this day and age many are already being deceived even to the point of thinking Mormons are Christians. They use all the same words, lingo etc. But it's not the same.



That is what I said was heavy language.

I did read back some to where Omsly started posted almost and it seems he tried to say what he meant in longer posts that I could appreciate. But I'm afraid you basically blew him off the way you did to me.

I was a good friend or sister until I tried to share my views - then you let me have it too.

You said I wasn't preaching the Gospel, so I just bugged off of this thread, having served God in evangelism long enough to feel that wasn't the nicest reply you could have given me, just because I don't hold to UNconditional eternal security.

When I first came on this thread, I tried as hard as lifting weights to try to come to an understandable compromise with you, as I have with others on this subject, even my own Church.

Wherever we could agree I tried to point that out, feeling the unity on here matters more than a dispute that's been going on for over 500 years. Probably much longer.
Most have us have come to a peace between these differing opinions, but you.
Then, you can't possibly read the Classic Authors here who do not agree with you and that would be sad, because this Site is based on the Classics, etc, and not on "us".

I mentioned how the Authors that this Site carries are not all unconditional eternal security neither, yet even the Reformed Theology folks like their writings.
And I like the writings of Reformed Authors on here. But that still didn't appease you.

But you wouldn't have it. No peace, just attacks on those who didn't agree with you, as I said, about accusing me of trying to rob folks of The Gospel .... another heavy charge.

From what I saw, this latest guy wasn't heard either, so he gave up and just posted some one-liners. But they were no worse than what you've leveled at me or him now.

You have a LOT of energy, but it's not for unity or peace here ... unless the person agrees with you.

When I begged for unity and love here, you accused me of some Hippie-love at the expense of truth. Remember ?

You just asked "Where were YOU GrannyAnnie .... ?"

My answer is, after two reasonably hard insulting hits from you at me .... I was gone off of this thread.

Only came back to post that one message from T.A. Sparks and that's when I noticed the newcomer to the thread and read as much as I could.

Your only problem with him, is the same problem you had with me .... you just don't want to hear anything but yourself on this thread and only to the few who will follow you along.

Otherwise, you are pretty nasty to some of us ... me just for one.

I didn't stay and make a big deal out of it ... just left the thread, but to accuse someone of being a Mormon or the like, etc., is heavy.

When I said on here that I was now afraid to bring up "love and unity" after your cutting words, you didn't care. You just plowed on.

Un-Christlike ? you say ... how about how you treated me when I was bending over backwards to make friends and peace with you on here.
:-(

You cannot take correction in any way it comes at you, not even from someone who truly tried to be your friend and agree where we could for unity and peace. You basically made a "cult" reference to my Love and unity plea also.

Sorry friend, but maybe just this once, you may want to listen to the others here. Even if they don't follow you around agreeing with all you post. This is an open Forum and none of us needs to be accused of being "cultish" if our ideas are not in your agenda or plan for this thread.

I tried to be friendly with my first heads-up there about Omsly, who I saw as just one of the many teaching "being conformed into the Image".

If we don't put LOVE first, then what you're doing is "tinkling cybals and sounding brass" 1Corth13. What I tried to accomplish between us before you caused me to give up with your insults was to maintain that love.

Ho-hum.

If Ormsly or I weren't here for you to target, then I'm sure JesusIsMyLrd, would have gotten it next and I did see where Omsly used Scripture and not just commentaries and he only asked if you had written something yourself.

You mention Forrest, but she started this thread that you've taken over and does not by any means believe in OSAS.

I used Scripture too but 'you' scoffed. Others have used Scipture also against OSAS and you scoffed.

Only Phil and Philip can get along with you and only because they agree with you.
I have no problems with Phil and Philip, because as I told you early in this thread, I attend a Reformed Theology Church.

I told you from the beginning, that I don't feel this is worth tipping a whole boat of sisters and brothers over ... but you scoffed at that too.

Hey, if Omsly is a man - let him deal with this.

I had enough of your "cult" assinuations thrown at me to where I feared saying "Love".

You'll NEVER rob me of that.

Love in Him.

Annie

P.S. Personally, I think this thread should be locked.
There are too many good people and authors on here to ruin fellowhship over, just because of one throwing "cult" accusations at at least two folks now just for not going for UNconditional eternal security.
I'm going back and reading some of Forrest's posts and see what happened to hers, since she started this thread.
Freedom of speech doesn't exist on this thread.

Sleep well.

 2007/7/2 0:32





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