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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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PosterThread









 Re:

Let’s try to establish when the beginning was.

[i]"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men."[/i] John 1:1-4 (KJV)

[i]"He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.......".[/i] 1 John 3:8 (NKJV)

[i]"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,....."[/i] Ephesians 1:4 (KJV)

We can see from the above verses that the beginning was before this world ever came into existence. The last verse declares we, who are the "saints and [those] faithful in Christ", were chosen at that very same time (Vs.1)

[Emphasis added]

I believe all mankind was observed by God at that very same time else how could He make His selection[s]. [i]"Jacob I loved, Esau, I hated"[/i].

This is often argued/debated by them who have been persuaded that the part, redemption, is the whole of the message and reason for Christ coming to Earth. I have been persuaded otherwise simply because the scriptures testify to there being more to the message found in Jesus Christ than the salvation message and apart from the understanding of the whole of it, the Gospel will not sustain. Good folk are left with no revelation and consequently, no vision ... and no passion; no clear definition as to what "suffering for Christ", "living in Him", actuality means but rather embracing some other short-sighted understanding that leaves one devoid of the Faith of the Son of God..

[i]"My people perish for lack of knowledge”….. “Where there is no vision the people break loose, become unrestrained”[/i](Hos.4.6) (Prov.29.18)

Carefully consider this passage:

[i]"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaks unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
For whom the Lord loves he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives.
If ye endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chastens not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.'[/i] Hebrews 12:1-8 (KJV)

Again, speaking as from the "beginning" Paul says this:

[i]"For it became him, for [b]whom are all things, and by whom are all things[/b], in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. ["Revelation truth, vision, passion"]
For both [b]he that sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of one[/b] for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,"[/i] Hebrews 2:10-11 (KJV)

[i]"He that says he abides in Him ought himself also so to walk, [b]even as He walked[/b]."[/i] 1 John 2:6 (KJV) *[In His Flesh][i]"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that [b]we should be called the sons of God[/b] Therefore the world knows us not, because it knew him not."[/i] 1 John 3:1 (KJV) So much for the “CEO”, modern/post modern, church.

Properly understanding this, one must conclude heaven is no longer the goal for that one, "faithful in Christ", but rather, becoming like Him, as He was in His flesh, as being the intention of the Father He desires for us to understand and participate in. It is to recognized as the process of the "way of the cross". Not only for Adam was it given that he become "Christ filled", which he declined, but is now to all his offspring to enjoin.

We must understand that Jesus restored us to the human condition, before the fall. Where Adam had no hope for himself, or for his offspring, for forgiveness of his Sin for no man could be found worthy, because of Calvary we now do. We now have an advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus, Adam could only hope for and died waiting. The shed Blood for Adam's transgression that would [i]“make all things new”[/i] would not come for another four thousand years.

It was Father's intention, from the beginning, to fill the Earth with His Glory. Adam was to have begun the process of “Actualizing” the “Reality of the Father’s Heart”; the intention [i][b]of[/b][/i] Himself that would be summed up in Christ, filling the whole Earth in human form. When Adam transgressed, his transgression did not stop the process except now the Earth would be filled with corrupted seed to await redemption/reconciliation and restoration to what Father's original intention was to be about..... for the Christ of Himself.

Jesus, the last Adam, the only begotten of the Father in whom we move and have our being because [b]we were begotten “with” Him from the beginning and now are begotten again[/b] [see 1 Peter 1.3 KJV];Jesus, the “First of First Fruits”, accomplished the mission that we now, can and must accomplish ours if we are to participate in “Join-heir-ship”. [i]” "[i]For it became Him,[/i] [Christ] [i]for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation[/i] [Jesus] [i]perfect through sufferings.[/i] [Revelation Truth, Joy, Vision, Passion] [i]For both he that sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of one for which cause he is not ashamed to call them [us] brethren”[/i] Hebrews 2:10-11 (KJV) …If we indeed be willing to suffer as He suffered in His Flesh.

If it can seen that the message of the Gospel is God centered and not man centered, i.e., that we simply benefit from His ultimate intention, the Bible will read differently.

For one who is devoid of the complete understanding of the message of the gospel, he will not understand what suffering for Christ entails nor what it is meant to produce in us, for God.
[Emphasis added]



 2007/6/29 10:33









 Re:

So Ormly...does that mean you don't believe in whosoever will? Sounds like Calvinism to me.

Abel was counted Righteous by God because Abel believed God and put his faith in the coming redeemer, by that offered a sacrifice, signifying his faith in that promise.

Cain's works were rejected because he wanted to come to God another way, signifying pride, therefore his works were in God's eyes evil.

Jesus died for the sin of the whole world, not only for ours but for the whole world. Grace and sanctification are indeed a gift, but every man has the ability to repent, as it says in Titus...That Grace has been made known to ALL men.

I think this is the message we preach to the lost. How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the Gospel of peace and bring glad tidings of Good things.

Paul said, God forbid that I would preach anything but Christ and Him Crucified.

Love in Christ
Katy-did ;-)

 2007/6/29 11:08









 Re:

I feel sure you didn't read what I wrote. That's disappointing. But it's ok. Perhaps others will and see the "whole of it" that will turn their captivity. Sorry I couldn't be of more help to you.

[i]"Therefore My people go into exile for their lack of knowledge; And their honorable men are famished, And their multitude is parched with thirst."[/i] Isaiah 5:13 (

 2007/6/29 11:16









 Re:

Ormly, You use:

Quote:
believe all mankind was observed by God at that very same time else how could He make His selection[s]. "Jacob I loved, Esau, I hated".



This is what Calvinism or pre-election stand on. I am of a different understanding. Romans 9-11 cannot be saparated, and this in Romans 9 you cannot just take this verse and build a whole message around. You must at least start at the beginning of the Chapter...who was Paul talking about...
Not all Israel is Israel, but in Isaac will thy seed be called.

Isaac was the PROMISED Child. Holding this chapter up against Galatians, Paul teaches...that the Promise will come to the Gentiles, The Promise of the Spirit. The Children of the Spirit are hated by those of the flesh. Those in Christ...the Spirit of Life in Christ are hated by those still in bondage. This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 9.

Those who are crucified with Christ, raised up with Him are quickened with Christ...now having that PROMISE of the Holy Spirit....This Promise of the Spirit is as much the preaching of the Gospel as anything...and that Gospel is preached to the whole world. It is by this Sealing of the Holy Spirit, baptized into His Body, that we know we have etrnal life. This was the prophesy acout the New Covenant...and gentiles are partakers of the covenants of PROMISE. Ephesians

Esau represents earthly, like Cain. God did not create Esau so he could hate him. Paul is showing 2 different kind of peoples...those who have Christ and those who don't. Children of the flesh and Children of the Spirit ASA the Promise of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit promised by Jesus Christ before he went to be with the Father, said He would send. Paul Preaching in Acts, "Have you received the HOLY SPIRIT since you believed", talking to those who only knew about John the Baptist, baptism of water. Paul took them aside and explained the fullness of the Gospel message to them.

Onley, I know exactly what you are teaching, as I didn't miss the point. I just disagree with the intrepretation.

Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

God warns in Thess that the wrath of God is coming on all those who REJECTED the message of the Gospel. Now, who is doing the rejecting here? Sounds like man to me.

 2007/6/29 12:08









 Re:

Ormly, I also don't believe we are restored back to what we were before the fall. [i][b][size=xx-small][color=FF0000]Considering this is what JW's believe, I do believe the Garden of Eden is going to be awfully crowded, as I think they have overbooked as it is. [/color][/size][/b][/i]I believe we are a NEW Creation in Christ. No longer Jew, no longer Gentile, but a New Creation. Those who believe you are restored back to what Adam was before the fall don't understand Adam and Eve were NEVER IN CHRIST. We at Calvary ended our history in Adam 1.

To say one MUST understand these things or they will not Grow into all the fulness and stature is not true. Jesus said...Learn of ME. We learn of Christ through the fellowship of His sufferings, and at those times and fellowship the Lord imparts His life to us. This is known as the knowledge of Him.....not head knowledge. When we first get saved, we know Jesus as our help, but as we grow, we come to know Jesus Christ as our very life. This is personal relationship knowledge.. Ephesians says, that we may know the length, debth, height and width of the fullness and stature of Jesus Christ and it is the Love of God that passes this knowledge on to His Children....day after day after day, we are being changed from Glory to Glory. I learn new things every day, grow every day. We press on...

To say that one will not grow or have a desire to grow ***unless they first understand*** is not true. We come into the knowledge of understanding personal knowledge of Jesus Christ as we grow up into Him.

To say the in-between is our responsibility, denies the New Covenant promises and the Surety of those promises. God has put on our hearts to want to obey, to hunger and thirst after righteousness and to hunger and thirst after Him.

Love in Christ
Katy-did ;-)

 2007/6/29 14:03
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

dear ormly,

please let me know if i am understanding your posts right. are you saying that we need to be focusing, not on just salvation per se, but on what God's original intention was which is to sum up all things in Christ).

if so, then i am with you in that. salvation is hugely important, but it is not an end in itself. it is merely a beginning point in the process of realizing the eternal purpose of God.

but that is for another thread on another day..

 2007/6/29 14:18Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

dear katy-did,

that is exactly correct.. we are in Christ and that is why we are different than Adam and Eve..

we have the Holy Spirit living in us and that is why the truly born again believers will not fall away. we are not of the old covenant "if you will obey, then I will bless" , but under the new covenant "I will put my Spirit within you, I will cause you to walk in My ways".

beloved, we are born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible seed..

just some thoughts..

 2007/6/29 15:08Profile









 Re:

Quote:

LoveHim wrote:
dear ormly,

please let me know if i am understanding your posts right. are you saying that we need to be focusing, not on just salvation per se, but on what God's original intention was which is to sum up all things in Christ).

if so, then i am with you in that. salvation is hugely important, but it is not an end in itself. it is merely a beginning point in the process of realizing the eternal purpose of God.

but that is for another thread on another day..



Indeed! Absolutely! That is exactly what I am saying. If we can see that we were originally begotten of the Father in Christ, from the beginning of HIS existence, how would it ever be that should fall away from our relationship with Him if after entering into such union with Him with such intimacy, having been "begotten again" in Him; such tasting of the heavenly gift, to then fall away from it, I believe Hebrews 6.4-6 comes plainly into view and made applicable.

 2007/6/29 15:30









 Re:

Ormly, much of what you say sounds good, but it seems to be *mingled* with other statements that concern me.
1. Going back to what we were before Adam & Eve's fall,
2. Becoming like Christ in the flesh...since Christ died in the flesh and we identify with him in the likeness of that, putting off our old adam 1, being now a New Creation in Christ, SEATED WITH HIM IN HEAVENLY PLACES, Heaven now is our home.

This is what Colossians 3:1-4 is about...this earth and anything attqched to it, including our relationship to adam 1 in any way no longer holds for those in Christ.

Can you explain this further?
Thanks
Katy-did

 2007/6/29 15:39









 Re:

What you fail to grasp is the Father's ultimate intention for His creation.

 2007/6/29 15:51





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