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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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 Re:

Ephesians 1:

8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

We are Bone of His Bone and flesh of His flesh, referring to the Church. Ephesians 5

Adam was made out of the dust of the earth. Eve was not..Eve was created out of Adam's Rib. This being a type and shaddow of *US*, the Bride of Christ. We are God's Gift to Jesus Christ,John 17, Jesus prays, ***all that YOU, His Father, have given Me and *He* will present to Jesus Christ, the Church, His Bride, without spot or wrinkle.

Love in Christ
Katy-did
:-)

 2007/6/28 16:33









 Re:

Quote:

Katy-did wrote:
Ormly,
Quote:
The in-between is our responsibility. It is given to us to become as He was in His flesh.



Im not sure I understand what you are saying here. We cannot become as He was in the flesh. Fully God/Fully Man. Without sin.??? Is this what you are saying we become. I believe at Calvary our History in Adam 1 ended. Crucified with Christ. We are now a New Creation in Christ Jesus, old things pass away, all things become new. We "In Him" only have Righteousness, Christ who is our life. Anything else would suggest we are little gods...wrong. Nor did we exist before the foundatiuon of the world. Mormons believe they did, and much of Calvinism, taken from Mormonism or vice versa, believe this. The Church...the Bride, was from the Foundation..
Yes, God knows the beginning from the end, and who will and who won't. But to suggest we existed before the foundation of the world is incorrect. I do hope that is not what you are suggesting.

Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)



When, in your thinking, was the "beginning"?

 2007/6/28 17:03









 Re:

Ormly,
I'm still not sure what you are trying to say. But I do know 1 st John says,
We don't yet know what we will be but we know we will be like Him, for we shall see Him AS HE IS, *****not as He was.

Jesus now Glorified, which maybe only Paul didn't quite see, considering he was blinded by the Glory of His Brightness.....

But I don't believe we are re-incarnated. Or that we were little spirit babies just waiting to take hold of a body, as Mormons believe, and they got this partly from Calvinism and the elect kind of doctrine of pre-existing existance. Maybe this is what you believe, but I don't. I believe sin entered the universe via satan and fallen angels long before man was formed. God's plan of redemption was there as well. Romans says, even the earth groans within itself, waiting....(from when)

God is eternal, having no beginning of days or end of days who cannot die. Jesus said, I am the resurrection...


[u][i][b][color=CC0000]Romans 6:5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:[/color][/b][/i][/u]


Blessed are those who have part in the first resurrection, against such the second death hath no power. In Christ we say...Oh Death..where is thy sting? There is none to those IN CHRIST, and Christ IN YOU. We have been raised up together with Him and baptized into His Body AKA the Church. Whosoever will may come.

Love in Christ
Katy-did ;-)

 2007/6/28 18:23









 Re:

Well, I am not a Mormon or of the Calvinist persuasion. I see things more from God's perspective rather than man's view concerning the issue of redemption. It is only a part of the whole..

I thank you for your kind remarks and ask again, when do you believe our beginning was. Please feel free to search the scriptures. This is no trick question and has everything to do with our understanding the gospel to be God centered and not man centered.

 2007/6/28 18:53









 Re:

Ormly, I'll try to answer, if I understand the question...that may be the problem!!!

This is how I believe it to be, according to scripture.

From Hebrews, Jesus, took on the seed of Abraham, humbled Himself, broke the power of death Satan had over mankind. AKA Redemption.

But the greater story is, we In Christ are co-heirs...Jesus/God..higher than the angels, became for us, lower than the angels to bring us into a place never promised before to Adam and Eve. Even if Adam and Eve never sinned, they were never promised to be Glorified together With Christ, or Co-Heirs. Yes, this was God's plan all along..to have Children of free will, to love Him freely...He didn't want puppets.
In this great plan...(now I'm only wondering about this), (Just my thoughts on the subject here) God told Lucifer about this plan, and it really ticked him off...“How dare you”, he might have said, “children that would take my place, and actually be placed above us” ..…“come on guys, I'm mad as heck and I'm not going to take it anymore...who's coming with me". So Lucifer, as it says in Isaiah 14, set his thrown above the *stars*...stars meaning Israel/and or as God told Abraham, we shall be counted as more than the stars of Heaven (symbolically here only...we are not literally stars)...more than can be numbered...His Children. and in setting that throne above the stars, rebelled against this plan, and has wanted to destroy mankind from the very beginning at the Garden of Eden. Was God shocked or surprised? Did He call a conference and say...Oh No, now what do we do..he messed up everything...No!

But even with that Ormly, It says in 1st John

Children know there sins are forgiven
Young Men have overcome the evil one
and fathers have known Him from the beginning.

But I don't believe it means "we" existed in the beginning...I believe the thought of us and plan of us because God knows beginning and end existed from the beginning, and our understanding of this beginningness makes us mothers and fathers of the faith to bring children along and young men to carry on preparing them to become fathers of the faith holding to truth.

Paul said, though you have many teachers but not many FATHERS, be ye followers of Me, the way I am Of Christ. Paul grew into all the fullness of the wisdom and knowledge of Jesus Christ , the length, breadth, width and height Ephesians 3 that is IN Christ Jesus Only, an was the greatest Father of the faith, whom said he was the least of all apostles, may just find himself the greatest of all. He died for us as well, holding to the truth of GRACE plus nothing, being killed by the lawyers, not gentile heathens, because he would not conpromise teh truth. May we all grow into Fathers and Mothers of the Faith, for our children and this lost and dying world. The Church today is being corrupted and the message of the Gospel is being corrupted.


Love in Christ
Katy-did

;-)

 2007/6/28 19:23









 Re:

Quote:
Ormly, I'll try to answer, if I understand the question...that may be the problem.



Perhaps I can be more clear. When in the Heart/Mind of God, do you believe we, mankind, had our beginning?

I am trying to establish a proper starting point in our thinking.

 2007/6/28 19:47









 Re:

Ormly, Is there a clear cut verse that says when? I'm being a little silly here, but since I wasn't there I don't really know. Time is not with God as it is with you and me. I cannot wrap my mind around eternity past present and future. But you tell me, I would love to know. You say it will help in understanding redemption/eternal life? I hope we don't have to understand it to know we have it. Only a Child like faith is all that is needed. I believe we will not even know or understand all there is to know in the first million years with the Lord. I imagine that is what is going to be so awesome and exciting...having more to learn.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

 2007/6/28 20:01









 Re:

Omley, The weather is getting hostile here and I need to get off for a while. Back with you later!! I'm really enjoying our conversation here.

I want to know what you know!!!
Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

 2007/6/28 20:04









 Re:

Omley, You said,



Quote:
We were in Him at the First and will be in Him at the Last. Between the First and the Last we are in the world, to become [a son]. The First and the Last, He is responsible for being that. The in-between is our responsibility. It is given to us to become as He was in His flesh. Without a vision of the last, we will not become that which is purposed by the Father.




Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. Blessed are those who don't see but believe.

Omley, those two verses want to argue your statement here. We don't have to have visions of anything to understand the Gospel, which includes the beginning and end of our salvation. Jesus Christ is teh beginning and end, and we are Complete in Him. Also remember we are not to be moved away from the *simplicity* that is in Christ.

We don't become like Him the way He was in the flesh...we are not fully God and fully man...we were never born of a virgin, we are not sinless. We shall be like Him as He is, Glorified together with Him....changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. Paul said, that I may KNOW Him and the fellowship of His suffering, being made conformable to his death that I may attain to the resurrection...I press on...This being Paul's heart in instructing us ....

Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

PS: The only vision Abraham had was in the resurrection.
Hebrews 11

[i][b][size=xx-small][color=CC0000] 17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

[/color][/size][/b][/i]

 2007/6/29 6:51









 Re:

Becoming as Christ was in the flesh:

Romans 6:
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


1 Peter 4:
1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
Philippians 2: 5


Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


Hebrews 2:
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Hebrews 5:
8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


James 5:
10Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. 11Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.


2 Thessalonians 1:
4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:


James 1:
2My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 3Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.


Romans 5
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.


Omley, is this what you are talking about?

Love in Christ
Katy-did
;-)

PS: Abraham's faith was tested when he OBEYED God and offered Isaac upon the alter. Just to add a note....Isaac also became obedient unto death. Galatians says...Like Isaac was...so are we.

 2007/6/29 9:41





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