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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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 Re:

Rookie,

Do you understand these scriptures?

Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Ephesians 1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Ephesians 3:3
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,)

Ephesians 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ

Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Ephesians 5:32

This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Ephesians 6:19
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

*****Colossians 1:26
Even the MYSTERY which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:*****
Colossians 1:27

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this MYSTERY among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

[i][b][size=small][color=FF0000]*****Colossians 1:26[/color][/size][/b][/i][b][size=small][color=FF0000]Ephesians 3:9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:[/color][/size][/b]

Rookie, are you trying to say we don't need Jesus Christ for salvation? I don't understand your point.

In Christ
Katy-did :-)

PS: John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him, will not parish but have eternal life.

This love was from the foundation of the world, spoken in Genesis 3:15 that God would send a redeemer. Abel's sacrifice was Abel's acknowledgement in that promise and by faith his sacrifice of a burnt offering signifying his faith in that promise was declared righteous by God.

 2007/6/25 6:41
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Jeff wrote,

I agree.

"""Scripture also says that Abel practiced righteousness""""

Practicing righteousness and being righteous because of the Christ in us are two different things.


Abel answered and said to Cain, there is judgment, and there is a Judge, and there is another world; and there are gifts of a good reward to the righteous, and vengeance will be taken on the wicked; and the world was created in mercy, and in mercy it is governed, for according to the fruit of good works it is governed; because that my works are better than thine, my offering is kindly accepted, and thine is not kindly accepted; and they both strove together in the field, and Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.''

In the Hebrew text in Ge 4:8; there is an extraordinary large pause, as if a discourse of this kind, which passeth between the two brothers, was to be inserted. Philo the Jew says6, that in the contention or dispute between Cain and Abel, Abel attributed all things to God, making him pleasing to God and Cain ascribed everything to himself; so that the controversy was about grace and works, as now; and as then Cain hated his brother upon this account, so now carnal men hate and persecute the saints, because they will not allow their works to be the cause of justification and salvation: and from hence also it may be observed, that a work may be, as to the matter of it, good, and yet as to its circumstances, and the end and view of it, by God, evil.

In the instance of Cain and Able, everybody thinks that Cain was just a satanic murderer and held no thought to what Able his brother was saying or had done. Cain went to talk with his brother and in talking he rose up and killed him. What could Able have said to cause this outburst? Possibly the end of his argument that God was pleased with his offering and not Cains, Which Able was bragging in his own write about the Grace of God. Just like now we have this terrible offense between brothers, Grace is sufficient, no it takes works with Grace. Like James, faith without works is dead. Then comes Paul Grace with works is not Grace at all.

It is both, but God is the judge of all of it and He is the one that knew that the works of the old testament were all evil, because it was of man. The only perfect works of any man were the works of Jesus Christ. Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That is why He has been made our righteousness. Even the good works of man are evil before God, even though God recognized Able's offering and not Cain's offering, before God there was still no Christ righteousness in either one of them. Or else there would be no reason to kill His Son on a Cross just to justify us in Christ's Righteousness.

Either God does not know what He is talking about and Able's symbol of Christ's sacrifice by the killing of a Lamb is what saved Able and condemned Cain or God knowing exactly what He is doing and knows us well enough to still have need of a substitute perfect righteousness in Christ for our pitiful counterfeit self righteousness in works. "Able practiced righteousness" but not the righteousness of Christ that brings us into the Kingdom as son's of God by the only begotten Son of God Jesus Christ in us, the "Hope of Glory".

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/6/25 18:56Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Hi LoveHim , What i am picking up is that osas is a fact and not a "position".
If this is true than any position other than yours is hearesy.
Do you think I am saved if I hold this "false " view that a saint could, through whatever circumstances, "loose" his salvation?
I am also picking up that anyone that holds the osas view believes those with other views are saying God failed to do his job.

Am i correct?....David

 2007/6/25 19:31Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Sis askes:

Quote:
Rookie, are you trying to say we don't need Jesus Christ for salvation? I don't understand your point.



No, I am saying that the mystery of Christ and fellowship with Him existed since the first man Adam came to be. All things are created by Him and for Him, nothing that was made was made without Him. Thus all who are born of God, the children of God are adopted out of the corruption that was allowed to enter into the world by means of Satan. Not only do the Gentiles need Him as Savior, but all generations needed Him for that is what Faith is meant to bring. The Light of Life also worked to open the ancient paths spoken of in the OT. Job knew Christ. Abraham knew Christ. David knew Christ.


This Scripture in Romans speaks to generations of people who were holy because the root was Holy.


Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."


All of the branches were fed by the "Root of Jesse" are holy.

Have you ever considered what Christ was doing before He was Man? Have you ever considered why Abraham needed the High Priest of God whose name is Melchiszedeck?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/6/25 21:28Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip quoted something from somewhere other than Scripture...

If Scripture says that Abel was a prophet of God and God spoke to Abel, and Abel obeyed, does this mean that Abel's actions were evil?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/6/25 21:41Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Am I a prophet if I tell you there is a heaven, there is a God and there is Judgement and there is a hell.

I did not say Able was a prophet, I simply gave an estimate of what could have happened between Cain and Able, by John Gill's exposition on the whole bible, and of Grace and self works.

Also, if Melchiszedeck was Abraham's Jesus, He must needs hang on a Cross for him.

John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

""Abel answered and said to Cain, there is judgment, and there is a Judge, and there is another world; and there are gifts of a good reward to the righteous, and vengeance will be taken on the wicked; and the world was created in mercy, and in mercy it is governed, for according to the fruit of good works it is governed; because that my works are better than thine, my offering is kindly accepted, and thine is not kindly accepted; and they both strove together in the field, and Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.''

In the Hebrew text in Ge 4:8; there is an extraordinary large pause, as if a discourse of this kind, which passeth between the two brothers, was to be inserted. Philo the Jew says6, that in the contention or dispute between Cain and Abel, Abel attributed all things to God, and Cain ascribed everything to himself; so that the controversy was about grace and works, as now; and as then Cain hated his brother upon this account, so now carnal men hate and persecute the saints, because they will not allow their works to be the cause of justification and salvation: and from hence also it may be observed, that a work may be, as to the matter of it, good, and yet as to its circumstances, and the end and view of it, evil.""

His assessment of Cain and Able is Mine also.

In the instance of Cain and Able, everybody thinks that Cain was just a satanic murderer and held no thought to what Able his brother was saying or had done. Cain went to talk with his brother and in talking he rose up and killed him. What could Able have said to cause this outburst? Possibly the end of his argument that God was pleased with his offering and not Cains, Which Able was bragging in his own write about the Grace of God. Just like now we have this terrible offense between brothers, Grace is sufficient, no it takes works with Grace. Like James, faith without works is dead. Then comes Paul Grace with works is not Grace at all.

It is both, but God is the judge of all of it and He is the one that knew that the works of the old testament were all evil, because it was of man. The only perfect works of any man were the works of Jesus Christ. Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That is why He has been made our righteousness. Even the good works of man are evil before God, even though God recognized Able's offering and not Cain's offering, before God there was still no Christ righteousness in either one of them. Or else there would be no reason to kill His Son on a Cross just to justify us in Christ's Righteousness.

Either God does not know what He is talking about and Able's symbol of Christ's sacrifice by the killing of a Lamb is what saved Able and condemned Cain or God knowing exactly what He is doing and knows us well enough to still have need of a substitute perfect righteousness in Christ for our pitiful counterfeit self righteousness in works. "Able practiced righteousness" but not the righteousness of Christ that brings us into the Kingdom as son's of God by the only begotten Son of God Jesus Christ in us, the "Hope of Glory".


In Christ: Phillip




_________________
Phillip

 2007/6/25 22:00Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

dear psalm1,

do you really believe that i think that all who don't hold to the doctrine of the perseverence of the saints are not saved?? c'mom man, you should know me better than that.. do i believe that you can lose your salvation? no, i do not believe a truly born again believer who has been placed in Christ will lose Christ.. not because the believer is good, but because God has placed His Spirit in us and He will cause us to keep His covenant (jer 32:38-40, ezek 36:26-27). His seed remains in us and we cannot sin (live a alifestyle of continual sin).

many here will agree with me and many here will disagree with me, but i would never consider someone who believes that you can lose your salvation to be a heretic.. c'mon psalm1, to say something like that is ridiculous..

about your salvation, who knows but God. can i look into your soul and see if you have been truly converted?? no. i would hope that you have the witness of the Spirit and that you're life would show the fruit of intimacy, love, repentance and obedience..

i do believe that God will continue what He started and that He is able to save us to the utttermost..

love you brother.

 2007/6/25 22:22Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Love Him I was truly asking only and not trying to infer what you believe.[I hve to watch that] but i do thank you for responding. I forgot what I was going to ask you but will think of it later, God bless you too.......David

 2007/6/26 0:25Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Quote:
It is both, but God is the judge of all of it and He is the one that knew that the works of the old testament were all evil, because it was of man.



This is not according to Scripture...


1John 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

All Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit speaking through men.

1Pet. 1:10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

Everything in the OT was written by men who had the "Spirit of Christ who was in them..."

Were these works evil?



In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/6/26 2:20Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Everything in the OT was written by men who had the "Spirit of Christ who was in them..."



OT Saints did not have the Spirit of Life in Christ that set them free from the law of sin and death.

That didn't happen until Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

OT Saints were in Abraham's Bosom AKA Paradise. When Jesus was on the cross, He said to the one theif...today you will be with me in Paradise. After 3 days, Jesus lead captivity Captive, meaning He took with Him those who were waiting in Paradise or Abraham's Bosom. Whese men are described in Hebrews 12...they are the spirits of Just men made perfect. Their percection came when Jesus rose from the dead.

In the OT, no one could come into the Holy of Holies. The veil had not yet been rent-opened. That veil, Jesus flesh torn also at the same time the veil in the Temple had been torn...signifying the way into the Holy of Holies had been opened. No one can come to the Father except through His SON.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

:-)

PS:Luke 16:22-24 And it came to pass, that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried (23) And in (hades) hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tourmented in this flame.

Spriros Zodhiates Hebrew Greek Key Study Bible pg 1261: "It is infortunate that the word hades is translated as "hell" in the KJV. It was the place for the disembodied spirits of the unrighteous and the righteous separated from the body at death up to the time of Christ's resurrection. Even the Lord's "soul" went there (Acts 2:27, 31) (See below scriptures). Consequent to Christ's resurrection, the believers go to be with Christ (II Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23)."
Scofield Reference Bible, NY Oxford Univ Press: Hades "the unseen world," is revealed as the place of departed human spirits between death and resurrection. It is the equivalent of the O.T. sheol.
Scofield's written Summary:
Hades before the ascension of Christ: The passages in which the word occurs make it clear that hades was formerly in two divisions, the abodes respectively of the saved and of the lost. The former was called "paradise" and "Abraham's bosom." Both designations were Tallmudic, but adopted by Christ in Luke 16:22, 23, 43. The blessed dead were with Abraham, they were conscious and were "comforted" (Lk 16:25). The believing malefactor was to be, that day, with Christ in "paradise." The lost were separated from the saved by a "great gulf fixed" (Lk 16:26). The representative man of the lost who are now in hades is the rich man of Luke 16:19-31. He was alive, conscious, in the full exercise of his faculties, memory, etc., and in tourment.
Hades since the ascension of Christ: So far as the unsaved dead are concerned, no change of their place or condition is revealed in scripture. At the judgment of the great white throne, hades will give them up, they will be judged, and will pass into the lake of fire (Rev 20: 13,14). But a change has taken place which affects paradise. Paul was caught up to the third heaven...into paradise (2 Cor 12:1-4) Paradise, therefore is now in the immediate presence of God. It is believed that Eph 4:8-10 indicates the time of the change. "When he ascended up on high he led a multitude of captives." It is immediately added that He had previously "descended first into the lower parts of the earth," i.e. the paradise division of hades. During the present church-age the saved who died are "absent from the body, at home with the Lord." The wicked dead in hades. and the righteous dead "at home with the Lord," alike await the resurrection (Job 19:25..1 Cor 15:52) See Mt. 5:22 note


Jesus descended into Hades Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Peter was preaching to the congregation. This is taking place after Jesus had been resurrected and returned to heaven. The Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost).

Acts 2:31 He, seeing this before, spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


 2007/6/26 7:15





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