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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


Katy-did wrote:

You see, when Jesus rose from the dead, he broke the power of sin and death Satan held over mankind. It's the Spirit of Life in Christ that sets us free from the Law of sin and death.

Based on what you wrote, is God asking too much of Cain when He speaks to him...

Gen. 4:6 So the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

God said to Cain, "but you should rule over it."

Apostle John writes:

1John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

1John 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

What covenant was Abel under according to John?

In Christ

Jeff Marshalek

 2007/6/22 0:29Profile

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


Katy-did wrote:

Did Job understand at the time what was going on? No, but he did say a couple very interesting things, and how did he know these things? Don't know how he knew, we do know that he did.

Job 33

23 “If there is a messenger for him,
A mediator, one among a thousand,
To show man His uprightness,
24 Then He is gracious to him, and says,
“Deliver him from going down to the Pit;
I have found a ransom’;
25 His flesh shall be young like a child’s,
He shall return to the days of his youth.
26 He shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,
He shall see His face with joy,
For He restores to man His righteousness.
27 Then he looks at men and says,
“I have sinned, and perverted what was right,
And it did not profit me.’
28 He will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit,
And his life shall see the light.
29 “Behold, God works all these things,
Twice, in fact, three times with a man,
30 To bring back his soul from the Pit,
That he may be enlightened with the light of life.

Have you ever considered this precept above? What covenant gives man "His righteousness."

What covenant enabled Eliju to be "enlightened with the light of life."

In Christ

Jeff Marshalek

 2007/6/22 0:39Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710


The general truth that God was merciful, and that the repentance of the sick man would be followed by a release from suffering, was all that can reasonably be supposed to have been understood at that period of the world. Now, we know the reason, the mode, and the extent of the ransom that was to come, and taking the words in their broadest sense, we may go to all sufferers, and say, that they may be redeemed from going down to the dark chambers of the eternal pit, for God has found a ransom. A valuable consideration has been offered, in the blood of the Redeemer, which is an ample reason why they should not be consigned to hell, if they are truly believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is the ransom paid. Long after Job was dead was the ransom paid and only by the Mercy of God can Job have any chance to take part in this ransom that he knew nothing about.

God's promise was not to seeds of Abraham but to the Seed Himself Jesus Christ that would be that ransom for sinners slain, by the Lamb that was slain, and that before the foundation of the world, the mystery revealed to Paul, that is, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory."

In Christ: Phillip


 2007/6/22 1:25Profile


Goodmorning GrannyAnnie! So wonderful to hear your post this morning. I think the sad part of (some) Christian teachers I grew up hearing...Don't let anyone know you are hurting. Keep a stiff upper lip, don't let the unsaved know, bla bla, bla. Maybe at first they judge and mock, but when something happens in their will be the first they call. (Not all Granny I know, but even when one comes along who heard through the grapevine, it makes it all worth while.)

Love ya Granny Annie!!!
Katy-did :-)

 2007/6/22 6:22


Goodmorning Rookie:

From the very beginning of Genesis 3:15 God promised a redeemer. This is the beginning of the Everlasting Covenant. The fulfillment will be when Satan is thrown into the lake of fire for all eternity...Within the Everlasting Covenant are many other Covenants, but nothing negates the "Everlasting" Covenant".

God clothed Adam and Eve with animal skins, a type of covering of Christ's Blood....(something had to die) right.
Abel offered a sacrifice of BLOOD...Cain offered self effort and works from the ground that had been cursed.

Job sacrificed for his sons, so we know he knew of the Redeemer as He said he did. He was included in the Everlasting Covenant Promise.

Blood is from the Beginning of Genesis to Revelations...God said...not without blood.

The problem today is we are preaching a bloodless salvation, or a perverted doctrine on the Blood. Even false doctrine now is sprinkling a little blood on it to sanctify what they are saying. Beware! You need to know God's Word. Especially Hebrews. It's the best book in the Bible to uncover cults and false teachers. Just ask teh Lord to enlighten you. Read it over and over. Hebrews 10 has been permanently grafted on my heart and mind from the very beginning of my salvation. I never knew why the Lord did that until now. It's built in radar.

12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

The Lord asked me to post this in Timothy. Don't know why, but He did.

C Templeton DENIED the Lord, OPENLY BEFORE THE WHOLE WORLD. He didn't just have a moment of weak faith as we all do from time to time.

Love in Christ


 2007/6/22 6:47

Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


Katy-did, Are you talking about salvation or "if im saved i have to stay that way"?
I have a question for you,If those christians that are not martered by anti-christ{ beecause they renounce Jesus}...Were they ever saved?
I think if you do a study on "broken covenant" it will be very interesting to you.
I understand covenant and i know exactly what you are talking about. I know the book of hebrews.And if I was to taake your position, itt would be on covenant. I have looked extensively into the 2 positions.
If i put the "OSAS' hat on I now have way too many scripturess to deal with.
I dont say yuor position is not viable.but only i personally take the other.
Make sense?

 2007/6/22 11:09Profile


Psalms1 or David:

I will let Andrew Murray take it from here concerning the two Covenants and Jesus our Surety of the New Covenant. He has done an excellent job, and one better than I could on this subject. I don't believe it because he says so, but because I KNOW so.

The New Covenant or Everlasting Covenant was ands is based on God saying I WILL. Regardless of Abraham's failure's at times, nothing can thwart the plan and purpose of God.

Those written in the LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE do not take the mark of the beast. That's a fact! Those if the 12 tribes of Israel in Revelation ALSO overcome the beast, and sing the song of Moses. They never took the mark, the Bible says they OVERCAME. We overcome through the Blood of the Lamb.


"And inasmuch as it is not without the taking of an oath: by so much also hath Jesus become the Surety of a better covenant. Wherefore also He is able to save completely them that draw near unto God through Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.” Heb. 7:20, 22, 25.

"A surety is one who stands good for another, that a certain engagement will be faithfully performed. Jesus is the surety of the New Covenant. He stands surety with us for God -- that God's part in the Covenant will faithfully be performed. And He stands surety with God for us, that our part will be faithfully performed too. If we are to live in Covenant with God, everything depends upon our knowing aright what Jesus secures to us. The more we know and trust Him, the more assured will our faith be that its every promise and every demand will be fulfilled, that a life of faithful keeping of God's Covenant is indeed possible, because Jesus is the Surety of the Covenant. He makes God's faithfulness and ours equally sure.

We read that it was because His priesthood was confirmed by the oath of God, that He became the Surety of a so much better Covenant. The oath of God gives us the security that His suretyship will secure all the better promises. The meaning and infinite value of God's oath had been explained in the previous chapter . "In every dispute the oath is final for confirmation wherein God, being minded to show more abundantly unto the heirs of the promises the immutability of His counsel, interpose with an oath, that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have a strong encouragement." We thus have not only a Covenant, with certain definite promises; we have not only Jesus, the Surety of the Covenant; but at the back of that again, we have the living God, with a view to our having perfect confidence in the unchangeableness of His counsel and promise, coming in between with an oath. Do we not begin, to see that the one thing God aims at in this Covenant, and asks with regard to it, is an absolute confidence that He is going to do all He has promised, however difficult or wonderful it may appear? His oath is an end of all fear or doubt. Let no one think of understanding the Covenant, of judging or saying what may be expected from it, much less of experiencing its blessings, until he meets God with an Abraham-like faith, that gives Him the glory, and is fully assured that what He has promised He is able to perform. The Covenant is a sealed mystery, except to the soul who is going without reserve to trust God, and abandon itself to His word and work.

Of the work of Christ, as the Surety of the better Covenant, our passage tells us that, because of this priesthood confirmed by oath, He is able to save completely those who draw near to God through Him. And this, because "He ever liveth to make intercession for them." As Surety of the Covenant, He is ceaselessly engaged in watching their needs, and presenting them to the Father, in receiving His answer, and imparting its blessing. It is because of this never ceasing mediation, receiving and transmitting from God to us the gifts and powers of the heavenly world, that He is able to save completely to work and maintain in us a salvation as complete as God is willing it should be, as complete as the Better Covenant has assured us it shall be, in the better promises upon which it was established. These promises are expounded (Heb. 8:7-13) as being none other than those of the New Covenant of Jeremiah, with the law written in the heart by the Spirit of God as our experience of the power of that salvation. Jesus, the Surety of a better Covenant, Jesus is to be our assurance that everything connected with the Covenant is unchangeably and eternally sure. In Jesus the keynote is given of all our intercourse with God, of all our prayers and desires, of all our life and walk, that with full assurance of faith and hope we may look for every word of the Covenant to be made fully true to us by God's own power. Let us look at some of these things of which we are to be fully assured, if we are to breathe the spirit of the children of the New Covenant.

There is the love of God. The very thought of a Covenant is an alliance of friendship. And it is as a means of assuring us of His love, of drawing us close to His heart of love, of getting our hearts under the power of His love, and filled with it -- it is because God loves us with an infinite love, and wants us to know it, and to give it complete liberty to bestow itself on us, and bless us, that the New Covenant has been made, and God's own Son been made its Surety. This love of God is an infinite Divine energy, doing its utmost to fill the soul with itself and its blessedness. Of this love God's Son is the Messenger; of the Covenant in which God reveals it to us He is the Surety; let us learn that the chief need in studying the Covenant and keeping it, in seeking and claiming its blessings, is the exercise of a strong and confident assurance in God's love.

Then there is the assurance of the sufficiency of Christ's finished redemption. All that was needed to put away sin, to free us entirely and forever from its power, has been accomplished by Christ. His blood and death, His resurrection and ascension, have taken us out of the power of the world and transplanted us into a new life in the power of the heavenly world. All this is Divine reality; Christ is Surety that the Divine righteousness, and the Divine acceptance, that all sufficient Divine grace and strength, are ever ours. He is Surety that all these can and will be communicated to us in unbroken continuance.

It is even so with the assurance of what is needed on our part to enter into this life in the New Covenant. We shrink back, either from the surrender of all, because we know not whether we have the power to let it go, or from the faith for all, because we fear ours will never be so strong or so bold as to take all that is offered us in this wonderful Covenant. Jesus is Surety of a better Covenant. The better consists just in this very thing, that it undertakes to provide the children of the Covenant with the very dispositions they need, to accept and enjoy it. We have seen how the heart is just the central object of the Covenant promise. A heart circumcised to love God with all the heart, a heart into which God's law and fear have been put, so that it will not depart from Him. Jesus is the Surety for all this under the oath of God. Let us say it once more: Surely the one thing God asks of us, and has given the Covenant and its surety to secure--the confident trust that all will be done in us that is needed--is what we dare not withhold.

I think some of us are beginning to see what has been our great mistake. We have thought and spoken great things of what Christ did on the Cross, and does on the Throne as Covenant Surety. And we have stopped there. But we have not expected Him to do great things in our hearts. And yet it is there, in our heart, that the consummation takes place of the work on the Cross and the Throne; in the heart the New Covenant has its full triumph; the Surety is to be known not by what the mind can think of Him in heaven, but by what He does to make Himself known in the heart. There is the place where His love triumphs and is enthroned. Let us with the heart believe and receive Him as the Covenant Surety. Let us, with every desire we entertain in connection with it, with every duty it calls us to, with every promise it holds out, look to Jesus, under God's oath the Surety of the Covenant. Let us believe that by the Holy Spirit the heart is His home and His throne. Let us, if we have not done it yet, in a definite act of faith, throw ourselves utterly on Him, for the whole of the New Covenant life and walk. No surety was ever so faithful to his undertaking as Jesus will be to His on our behalf, in our hearts.

And now, notwithstanding the strong confidence and consolation the oath of God and the Surety of the Covenant gives, there are some still looking wistfully at this blessed life, and yet afraid to trust themselves to this wondrous grace. They have a conception of faith as something great and mighty, and they know and feel that theirs is not such. And so their feebleness remains an insuperable barrier to their inheriting the promise. Let me try and say once again: Brother, the act of faith, by which you accept and enter this life in the New Covenant, is not commonly an act of power, but often of weakness and fear and much trembling. And even in the midst of all this feebleness, it is not an act in your strength, but in a secret and perhaps unfelt strength, which Jesus the Surety of the Covenant gives you. God has made Him Surety, with the very object of inspiring us with courage and confidence. He longs, He delights to bring you into the Covenant. Why not bow before Him, and say meekly: He does hear prayer; He brings into the Covenant; He enables a soul to believe; I may trust Him confidently. And just begin quietly to believe that there is an Almighty Lord, given by the Father, to do everything needed to make all Covenant grace wholly true in you. Bow low, and look up out of your low estate to your glorified Lord, and maintain your confidence that a soul, that in its nothingness trusts in Him, will receive more than it can ask or think.

Dear believer, come and be a believer. Believe that God is showing you how entirely the Lord Jesus wants to have you and your life for Himself how entirely He is willing to take charge of you and work all in you; how entirely you may even now commit your trust, and your surrender, and your faithfulness to the Covenant, with all you are and are to be, to Him, your Blessed Surety. If thou believest, thou shalt see the glory of God. What Christ has undertaken, you may confidently count upon His performing.

In a sense, and measure, and power that passeth knowledge, Jesus Christ is Himself all that God can either ask or give, all that God wants to see in us. "He that believeth in Me, out of him shall flow rivers of living water."
Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

 2007/6/22 11:37

Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


Katy-did we are Definately NOT connecting here. I dont need teacing on salvation. I know who my redeemer is . I have read the book of hebrews.I have studied the priesthood under dick reuben and philogos. and i dont think andrew murrey takes the OSAS position [but maybe he does]
You are welcome to take any position you like on ANY suject.
It appears , however you dont afford others the same privilige.
we agree on salvation.
It perplexis me that you think salvattion teaching somehow fortifies your doctrine.
I believe that doctrine Is called "eternal security" [but im not sure] [no pun intended] LOL
I aactually take your covenant teaching farther than you do. BUT scripture is the rule, so my position remains
.........does this make sense?

 2007/6/22 12:48Profile


Psalms 1,
You said:
Have you ever considered this precept above? What covenant gives man "His righteousness."

Doesn’t the New Covenant also the Everlasting Covenant declare that the Righteousness of God has been imputed to us…we are justified by His Blood. Correct? We are teh righteousness of Christ...His righteousness.

We are saved by His life.

And we do not add to the finished work of Christ. This work was finished from the foundation of the world.

The Covenants are what teach us about that finished work.

In the OT, Hebrews 11, they were saved by putting their faith in the coming redeemer. They looked forward to the Cross. We look back. In the New Covenant was the promise of the *spirit*. Hebrews 11 says these OT Saints died without the *promise*…not the promise of salvation, but the Promise of the indwelt Holy Spirit. There is only ONE Gospel and there always will be.

I apologize for not understanding your question or point. If Jesus doesn’t save to the utmost…who will, certainly not yourself.

Again, it’s scripture that Teaches these Truths. You want ANOTHER truth based on what? Isn’t this blog called OSAS??? The New Covenant sealed in the Blood of Jesus, made from or before the foundation of the world , THAT Covenant made between the Father Son and Holy Spirit, is not a conditional Covenant as the Old Covenant. The New Covenant WE RECEIVE as a GIFT, the Old Covenant was conditional, and they could never keep anyway.

People tend to forget mankind was lost the moment Adam and Eve sinned...not the Jews not keeping the Old Covenant!

Psalms 1, I really don’t understand your point. My intention was not as you have made here, but if you are not blessed by it, I know others will be.
Love in Christ

 2007/6/22 13:27

Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US


dear psalm1,

dear brother, you are able to take any opinion on this subject that you would like, but what katy-did was trying to show you was that because of what actually happens at conversion, because of what God does when bringing a new believer into the new covenant and being the surety of it, that is why she does not believe that a true, born-again believer can fall away and lose their salvation..

katy-did, please correct me if i am wrong about what i'm saying, but that is what i got for why you posted what andrew murray beautifully wrote..

 2007/6/22 13:30Profile

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