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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved???


elected wrote:
UniqueRevWeb wrote:
We do not know if we are among the Elect. We can't. We are not in a position to know.

I dont believe in election according to the interpretation of calvinists but i wholehearted believe what the bible says about predestination and election, even though i cannot understand it.

Redi, I haven't finished my study of Calvinism yet, but so far as I can say at this time, I can't believe what Calvin says either.

And yet, I too acknowledge that some of mankind are predestined to become the elect of God.

But who are they? How do we know we are one of them?

[color=993300]Matthew 24:22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 24:31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:20. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mark 13:22. For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:27. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 18:7. And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
8. I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Romans 8: 33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Romans 9:10. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11. (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Romans 11:1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace:
otherwise work is no more work.
7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Romans 11:26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31. Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.[/color]

Everyone of these statements were made by Jesus to Jews, or by Paul to the Jews in Rome. Even the argument of predestination is made to the Jews at Rome, and indeed, are not the Jews the Elect of God?

But later on, when it is declared that there is no more Jew or Gentile, Bond or Free, the Elect suddenly includes those that believe through Jesus.

[color=993300]Colossians 3:11. Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13. Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
15. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
16. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

1 Thessalonians 1: 3. Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
4. Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
6. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:[/color]

Yet even are the Angels elect!

[color=993300]1 Timothy 5: 21. I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.[/color]

And finally, to making sure of the elect, that they may obtain salvation.

[color=993300]2Timothy 2: 7. Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
8. Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9. Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
10. Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.[/color]

It would be nice to say that anyone who believes in Jesus as his Saviour is automatically of the elect, but there are so many verses riddled throughout the New Testament that appear to say that we must make our election sure.

And we do this not by works, but by a continuing belief in Jesus' ability and willingness to take our sins, once and for all. And this releases us to a life of grace, where our old nature may very well sin, but it doesn't matter because our hearts and minds are fixed on obedience to Jesus.

[color=993300]John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him[/color]

Obedience doesn't come easily to any of us, and certainly not just after we have have asked Jesus to be our Lord.

Paul continuously speaks of the need to press onward, to not be discouraged, to fight one's own self to obtain the great prize of salvation by disciplining oneself, and to work with the Holy Spirit to be conformed to the Image of Jesus.

Fo Paul himself states that the elect are not the Elect we seem to think exists, or he would not have said:

[color=993300]Titus 1:1. Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2. In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;[/color]

And Peter? He calls himself one of the Elect, but goes on to recommend faith.

[color=993300]1 Peter 1: 1. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4. To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.[/color]

And the Cornerstone of our faith is Jesus, a Jew, one of the Elect, on whom belief alone is sufficient.

[color=993300]1 Peter 2: 6. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.[/color]

And to the church at Babylon, which was Jewish?

[color=993300]1 Peter 5:6. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7. Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
8. Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9. Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
10. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
11. To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
12. By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.
13. The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.[/color]

And Peter speaks to Jews, not Gentiles, in the main, for it was Paul that was sent to the Gentiles.

[color=993300]2 Peter 1:3. According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7. And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:[/color]

And finally, in John, the word elect is merely a term of praise, or of category, of those that believe.

[color=993300]2 John 1. The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2. For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
3. Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
4. I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
5. And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6. And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11. For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
12. Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.
13. The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.[/color]

But when you are considering becoming a Christian, all of this is so far beyond your understanding that it is foolishness to teach it. So I don't. I don't want those on the brink of making a committment to Christ to be tortured with doctrine and dogma.

I want people to start in the simplicity of Grace, and not worry about the rest of it, for in the end, Grace is sufficient.

[color=993300]John 1:9. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Acts 15:1. And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3. And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4. And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9. And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11. But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.[/color]

Does a seeker need to know at the time of decision that there are questions in the entire Church of Christ that we more knowledgable Christians don't agree on?

No one believes that we, to become a Christian, do not have to do anything at all to gain that Grace, or there wouldn't be any resistence to the idea. The simplest child that can understand the basic Word of God knows instinctively that we have to do something to become a Christian.

And they are right. We have to believe that Christ is the Son of God, who lived a perfect life, then died for us, so that we would not have to suffer from the imperfection of our built in sin nature.

And after we decide to believe, and take Jesus as our Lord, we know we have to do something to maintain our belief. Yes, the Holy Spirit gives each of us a portion of faith, and stands ready to work with us through all the struggles of trying to be holy when we are in a sinful body that we cannot be rid of before death. And yes, we do have to avoid sinning deliberately, whih means living not in the world, but being called out from it.

And this is why Jesus commanded us to love God, and to love each other.

[color=993300]Matthew 22:37. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38. This is the first and great commandment.
39. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

John 13:34. A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.[/color]

And loving God requires obedience, as our proof of our love of God.

And the struggle to love each other, to be patient with each other, and kind, and walk in humility, and endure each other's bad moments, and to practice loving each other until it becomes less of a struggle for us, as we hope for the time when loving each other will be no struggle at all.

And in this love and struggle I see no proof of election. I see the proof of man trying to maintain a relationship with God by doing what He says. I believe we may be of the Elect, but that we will not know until we have run our course, and find out from Jesus that we were a good and faithful servant.

And so I keep placing the question before you, and all my brothers and sisters at SI. What do we tell the seekers and the brand new believers in Christ? Election, or Grace?



Forrest Anderson

 2007/6/15 21:15Profile


Forrest, not arguing here with you at all. Like to think none of us are.

May I just put this before you ?
I know I've posted it before, but it's hard to read all of these many pages again.

In order to have Predestination - freewill has to go, if you really think it through.
IF we're predestined, than we're going to make it 'no matter what we do'.

The Elect are those Who GOD knew/knows by Foreknowledge, would be faithful unto the end - 'by their own freewill', because they love(d) HIM and because of that, fulfilled the "law of Love" which is "the Law of The Spirit and of Christ and of the prophets" and "loved not their lives unto death" and because they loved Him they kept "His commandments" to love.

By Him allowing freewill, HE blackens Satan's hateful accusing eye.

Just putting this out there. I said from the start, that as long as folks teach Love as Holiness, as unto The LORD, I won't argue this. This is all I want to post on this thread
This Site obviously does preach Holiness.

His Love.

 2007/6/15 21:41

Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US


dear forrest,

you placed the question " what do we tell the seekers and brand new believers in christ??

i would tell them to seek to know Jesus more everyday. to hunger and thirst for Him..

i would tell them that if they have truly been born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, then He will lead them and giude them through the many trials that they will emcompass..

i would tell them that the Lord is their righteousness and salvation and sanctification.. that He is all they need and only He will continue to satisfy their deepest desires..

when dealing with losing / not losing salvation, i would not even bring it up so soon, but i would hold out the words of Paul before them

phil 3:12 not as though i had already attained, either were already perfect: but i follow after, if that i may apprehend that for which also i am apprehended of Christ Jesus

Phil 3:13 brethren, i count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing i do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before

phil 3:14 i press on toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.


phil 2:12b work out yoursalvation with fear and trembling

phil 2:13 for it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

 2007/6/15 21:44Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710


Election or Grace?

Both. Or no one would be, or have faith to believe.

Ephesians 2:1-22 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Understand this and election is sure. Are these elect saved? Yes or they would not be elect unto Christ. Not by the Law but by Grace through faith. Saved through faith not by faith.
That Faith being the Faith of the Son of God.

Gal 3:1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Gal 3:10 ¶ For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:15 ¶ Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though [it be] but a man's covenant, yet [if it be] confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.

Gal 3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed

Revealed and sure. 1 John 5:1-13 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

We can know we are elect, the eternal life of the Christ in us. We have the record inside us. It is the Spirit of Christ and by Him we know we have eternal life and why we believe on His Name. The Spirit bears witness with out spirit that Christ is in us.

Are we elect in Christ, not the elect of Israel. We are the elect of Christ and that is witnessed By the Holy Spirit that makes it true in our hearts. We are the son's of God.

In Christ: Phillip


 2007/6/15 22:33Profile

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


Farewell to God: My Reasonsfor Rejecting the Christian Faith by Charles Templeton.

There are those that one can not ignore as Charles Templeton:
The more he read, the more he found he was beginning to question the essentials of the Christian faith, because he could no longer believe God’s Word beginning with Genesis.

Templeton’s struggles affected others, too. As Templeton wrestled with the ‘demonstrable fact’ of evolution which made it impossible for him to believe ‘the biblical account of creation’, he sought out his close friend, Billy Graham. This caused Graham as well to grapple with tough questions that shook the very roots of the faith he professed and preached daily — namely, ‘was the Bible completely true?’

With ‘science’ pulling Templeton one way and the Bible seemingly pulling him in an altogether different direction, he resigned from his position with the National Council of Churches and took over the Department of Evangelism of the Presbyterian Church USA.

Finally, however, the doubts about everything he stood for became too great and he decided to leave the ministry.

One can not deniy that C. Templeton was a christian. In 1936, Templeton had a religious that was unmistakably real and could only be ascribed to God.

You can look up his biography on line and see the fruit of his ministry.
However, my point, of being decieved to eventualy deny the faith, can not be dismissed by anybody on this forum who dwell in reality.

 2007/6/15 23:22Profile

Joined: 2006/5/13
Posts: 22
Milwaukee WI


We are saved by God's grace, through faith in Him. He regenerates our hearts and sanctifies us so that we can become His children eternally:

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Titus 3:5: “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit.”

Hebrews 10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Those who have been born of God by His Spirit, are His children eternally, and heirs to His Kingdom:

John 10:27-29 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

John 6:37-40 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears MY word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS ETERNAL LIFE, and does NOT come into judgment, but HAS PASSED OUT OF DEATH into life.

Romans 8:1 “There is therefore NOW NO CONDEMNATION for those who are IN Christ Jesus.”

Romans 6:23; 11:29 “For the wages of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord. …for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”

You will know whether you HAVE eternal life by your fruits:

Matthew 7:16-23 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So then, you will know them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

1 John 2:3-6 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

1 John 3:4-10 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

In summary, those who have been born of God through the regeneration and sanctification of His Spirit, HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, because we are His children through being born of Him. We will know if we have been born of Him by our fruits. Those who practice sin are not His children and have never been known by Him, but are actually children of the devil. Those of us who have been born of Him will inherit His Kingdom as heirs and can never be snatched out of His hand.


 2007/6/16 0:37Profile


Logic, You wrote:

"Farewell to God: My Reasonsfor Rejecting the Christian Faith by Charles Templeton."

I thought about this post all night, and there are two answers in the Bible for this happening. Don't be surprised to see more and more of this going on as we get closer and closer to the return of the Lord.

1. Satan can turn himself unto an angel of light "AND A PREACHER OF RIGHTEOUSNESS"

2. Jude has the answer to the rest of your post.

You know, Satan knows and has always known he had only so much time before his end will come. He has been preparing and planning for his grand finally to deceive and take as many with him as possible.

People are being so primed to worship anti-christ.

What I know for a fact in the Bible is, there is a FLAWLESS GOSPEL! From Genesis to Revelation, the Gospel message has never scientifically been disproved. Do you believe Jesus Christ, the Word of God became flesh, dwelt among us, took our sin upon Him, rose from the dead? Paul said, God forbid that I would preach anything except Christ and Him Crucified.

Jesus was seen by over 500 witnesses after He rose from the dead.

Keep your eyes on the Lord, and not man. If you follow man, you are worshiping man. Romans 1&2 say, they knew God, but then turned the Creator into a creature. In other words, they brought God down to their level and lost conscienceless of Him all together. That is what happened to C. Templeton.

Christ lives in our hearts, and those who know the Lord, know the Risen Lord. C. Templeton had a form of Godliness, but denied the power. From such turn away!!! C. Templeton was never saved to begin with. Plain and simple. The more I read about Billy Graham, the more I say, “beware of another” !

Just because these imposters live and deny Christ, should be no surprise to anyone. That is not a reason to cause others to doubt . But it is a reason to discern the signs of the times. We are warned of a great apostasy. When we put our faith in people and not in Jesus Christ, When we worship ministries, and not Jesus Christ, we’ve brought God down to a creature…and that creature is described in 2 Thessalonians, someone who will exalt themselves as though he were god. …and those who follow that creature are said to have not received the Love of the Gospel that they would be saved. God also said, he will send them strong delusions that they would believe the lie. Now that’s a fact, not based on scientific evidence, but God’s Word.

Words of warning and Comfort to God’s Saints.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

*******15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.*******


Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

 2007/6/16 11:08

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710


This is Mr. Templeton's plight. It is God who destroys and unbeliever. Deuteronomy 28:62-68 And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God. And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it. And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind: And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life: In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see. And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.

Christ has bought all slaves back, if they only believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That belief even being given to them by God, as with Peter. Matthew 16:15-19 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Of course Peter is not the Rock, but the Revelation of the Father that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, that is the rock foundation Jesus Christ will and is building His Church, The Body of Christ Upon.

Not evolution of Mr. Templeton's ministry, a cohort of Darwin, Whom God has turned over for destruction on His terms not theirs.

Their question at the Great White Throne Judgement of God will be, Not why did you turn away from the Gospel, but why did you not believe in my Son that I gave for you from the first and the power of His Resurrection.

I never New you.

In Christ: Phillip


 2007/6/16 11:34Profile

Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US


i guess on regard to mr. templeton i would regard him like a judas.. one who LOOKED like he walked with Jesus, one who LOOKED like he knew Jesus, but in the end he showed that he did not truly know Him or was not known by Him.

"if they had been of us, they would have remained with us, but they went out from us that it might be MANIFEST that NONE of them were of us" (1 john 2:19)

there always were many in Jesus day and there will continue to be many in our day that walk by Jesus, seem to follow Him, but will turn away showing that they were not of Him in the first place..

love you brothers and sisters,

 2007/6/16 11:34Profile


FAITH is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. By faith we believe.

When Moses went into Egypt, God said "I will" be with you, "I will" put my words in your mouth. Many today want to scientifically explain away all that happened in Egypt. Explain away the parting of the sea.

I love Psalms 105. Even if we weren’t there, even if this is OT, it is a mighty Psalms to remember.

When we get at our lowest point, when satan comes along and wants to steal away your faith, as he must have in Israel at that time, it caused David to write one of the most uplifting Praises to God, and His Power.

At one of my lowest moments, thinking how impossible things were at that time in my life, the Lord brought this to me. It taught me that : reason, scientific evidence, logic, human understanding and so on could not diminish in any way, How Great our God is. It’s actually in our lowest moment, and when all human reasoning and strength is spent, that our faith is built on God alone, and His Word, and His promises. Paul said, when I am weak, then I am strong, that the “power of God” would rest upon me.

Psalm 105
1O give thanks unto the LORD; call upon his name: make known his deeds among the people.
2Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him: talk ye of all his wondrous works.
3Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD.
4Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.
5Remember his marvellous works that he hath done; his wonders, and the judgments of his mouth;
6O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.
7He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
8He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
9Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
11Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance:
12When they were but a few men in number; yea, very few, and strangers in it.
13When they went from one nation to another, from one kingdom to another people;
14He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes;
15Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.
16Moreover he called for a famine upon the land: he brake the whole staff of bread.
17He sent a man before them, even Joseph, who was sold for a servant:
18Whose feet they hurt with fetters: he was laid in iron:
19Until the time that his word came: the word of the LORD tried him.
20The king sent and loosed him; even the ruler of the people, and let him go free.
21He made him lord of his house, and ruler of all his substance:
22To bind his princes at his pleasure; and teach his senators wisdom.
23Israel also came into Egypt; and Jacob sojourned in the land of Ham.
24And he increased his people greatly; and made them stronger than their enemies.
25He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.
26He sent Moses his servant; and Aaron whom he had chosen.
27They shewed his signs among them, and wonders in the land of Ham.
28He sent darkness, and made it dark; and they rebelled not against his word.
29He turned their waters into blood, and slew their fish.
30Their land brought forth frogs in abundance, in the chambers of their kings.
31He spake, and there came divers sorts of flies, and lice in all their coasts.
32He gave them hail for rain, and flaming fire in their land.
33He smote their vines also and their fig trees; and brake the trees of their coasts.
34He spake, and the locusts came, and caterpillers, and that without number,
35And did eat up all the herbs in their land, and devoured the fruit of their ground.
36He smote also all the firstborn in their land, the chief of all their strength.
37He brought them forth also with silver and gold: and there was not one feeble person among their tribes.
38Egypt was glad when they departed: for the fear of them fell upon them.
39He spread a cloud for a covering; and fire to give light in the night.
40The people asked, and he brought quails, and satisfied them with the bread of heaven.
41He opened the rock, and the waters gushed out; they ran in the dry places like a river.
42For he remembered his holy promise, and Abraham his servant.
43And he brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen with gladness:
44And gave them the lands of the heathen: and they inherited the labour of the people;
45That they might observe his statutes, and keep his laws. Praise ye the LORD.

Look at how many times David said …
He gave,
He did,
He brought,
He remembered,
He opened,
He smote,
He spake,
He turned,
He sent.

Love in Christ

 2007/6/16 14:15

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