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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Quote:

"""Do you want me to tell these people who know nothing of doctrines or famous theologists that if they ask Jesus into their heart, that they can never, under any circumstances, be tricked into walking away from Jesus? That the Devil is not seeking to devour them when it is written that he is?"""

...Yes tell these people that they cannot lose their salvation, it is of God, but the devil will seek to deceive and devour them to that their witness for God is trampled under his feet. It is God that Satan is after and just uses us to get at Him. But, that does not mean that we can loose our salvation, Christ in us is the Hope of Glory and God wins with every person that has Him in them.
That was the victory at the Cross. Amen

Satan not only wants to destroy our witness but also to destroy our faith given by Christ through Grace and get us to believe that we are still in control of our salvation and can loose it by our actions and works of sin, which Christ cannot forgive.

Either you have the Spirit of Christ or you do not. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Maintaining all the commandments is not our responsibility or the Law would still be in effect. Maintaining is up to the Christ that is in us and by His resurrection power and His Cross, not ours, are we able to know that our salvation is secure. No man can keep the commandments of God or Christ would not have had to come and go to the Cross. So all of the, ifs, whens, if nots, and will be's, are our responsibility only knowing that the Christ in us is the only one that can do them and we must depend on Him for our life and we will never loose it, if we don't we will and can loose it. "Christ in you the Hope of Glory is the only answer to all these questions, for He is the only One that can keep them and us by the sealing of the Holy Spirit of God into Christ, which make us quite secure, for I know no one that can snatch us our of His hands.

In Christ our all in all and our life and security in our salvation God has given by His will and choice: Phillip




Dear Philip,

I thank you for being the first one to actually answer the question I have been asking all along - what do I tell these dear people to do when the devil has a good grip on their shoulders, and is going to fight tooth and nail against Jesus?

I disagree with you about telling anyone their salvation is assured when Paul himself would not leave off striving for the prize.

I have no doubt that the sins of my flesh are paid in full by the Blood of Christ.

But the Devil also seeks our minds and hearts, and will have our own Brother's and Sister's in the faith twist and turn what is a matter for God to know, ie. that our salvation was unto Election, and that Christ will forever keep us.

I do not doubt that Christ stood at my side and fought to keep me for 27 years from the devil after my baptism, knowing I had been deceived.

But I will not tell an unbeliever or a babe in Christ that you can walk in sin, and Christ will live with it until you come to your senses, even though I have experienced it myself.

I don't want to give the Devil that much help!

If Paul can be consistantly doubting his salvation, and he is an Apostle of God, I think that I too, and all others need to look to their laurels, and fight the good fight to the end, striving always for victory in this life, and a "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" from He whom we serve.


Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/6/15 2:21Profile









 Re:

Good Morning Jeff,
You were asking:

"Isn't Paul stating that the Gentiles were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants, having no hope...

Scripture teaches that there has always been a remnant saved by grace and not of works"

I think we are talking about two different things, or you are seeing something other than.

There is only ONE GOSPEL OF GRACE. No one was saved by the law...correct.

The Everlasting Covenant(Promise) was first announced in Genesis 3:15...the promise of a Redeemer, and the total crushing of Satan. Hebrews 11 starts from Abel on about faith......but it's faith in Jesus Christ. The OT Saints looked forward to the cross.

God covered Adam and Eve in animal skins, the first to signify the shedding of blood to cover sin. Abel's sacrifice was accepted, Cain, a bloodless sacrifice was not.

Continue to read what Paul says in Ephesians 2.

The Mystery of the "Church" that was kept secret was Jew and Gentile becoming a "New Creation".

The Mystery is not, as some want to believe, that Gentiles would be saved. That is not the Mystery Paul is talking about. In Genesis, God told Abraham he would be the Father of many nations...so Gentiles getting saved was not a mystery.. The Mystery is Christ in you, One New Man. ( Read John 17 Again) The OT Saints were not indwelt with Christ in You, or indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 11 said they died without the "PROMISE"....not the promise of salvation, but the Promise of the Spirit. The New Covenant Promise....I will put my Spirit in you Covenant. That couldn't happen until Jesus rose from the dead. The Spirit of Life in Christ that set you free from the Law of sin and death (original sin)is the quickening life that the Risen Lord gives. Remember Paul said, we are justified by His blood, and Saved by His life...His risen life.

I hope that hasn't totally confused you.
In Hebrews 13, these "just" men in the OT are now called the spirits of Just men made perfect...Their perfection came when Jesus rose from the dead. Our perfection is here and now...because Christ is in you NOW, and we are being conformed to His image. OT saints were not Cricified with Christ....WE ARE.


PS Look in Galatians too where Paul said,Cursed is everyone who hangeth on a tree that
the *PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT* CAN COME ON THE GENTILES. It gets really deep.

The real point I was trying to make is, there is only One Gospel, and that is based solely on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Blood of the Covenant is that SAME blood that washed away our sin. You can't separate.


Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

Just added, and very important

Genesis 3:15 is not a covenant...but a promise to be fulfilled in the Covenant.
The Covenant promises were to Abraham Isaac and Jacob.. This is what Paul is talking about in Ephesians...the Covenant"s" of promises.
When Abraham brought Isaac to the Alter to sacrifice, he saw the resurrection in a vision( Read Hebrews 11
In John 8 Jesus said...Abraham rejoiced to see "my day" The Day of Jesus Christ...he saw it and was glad... He saw the promise of the Redeemer, the Lamb of God...Not the King the Pharisee's, who rejected the Redeemer, Lamb of God, were waiting for. There are 2 comings of Christ in the OT, one of King and one of Redeemer. The Promise of the King..Kingdom Reign is still waiting to be completely fulfilled in the EVERLASTING Covenant...( Read (*Acts 1:6&7 and *Isaiah 14)one of the Kingdom Reign and those promises to Earthly Israel, and the end of satan. Only during the 1000 years will he be bound, and then loosed again. Then his final end. So, because many people don't believe this, this is why many scriptures are not clearly understood. Actually Matthew was written to the Jews concerning the 1000 Year Kingdom Reign...It's all legalistic. That is why, too, many don't understand Grace, if trying to mix Kingdom Age teachings in it. Grace and Law don't mix. Just ask Paul and read Galatians! I am crucified to the world and the world is crucified to me said Paul. This is the Calling of the Church...we have a Heavenly Calling..Colossians 3:1-4...not earth!

*** Just added PS: The reason you see so much prosperity teaching is because many cannot distinguish between these Two kingdoms.. I call it the Clash of the Kingdoms. We've been translated out of this present evil age into the Kingdom of His Dear Son. Those into prosperity teaching, believe the OT promises of "earthly blesings" for obedience now belong to the Chruch. There is a warning in Hebrews concerning Esau....who sold his birthright for a morstel of food. That same warning is to the Church...don't sell your Birth Right of your Heavenly Calling and run after earthly blessings. This is the Apostasy and the turning away from the Gospel of Grace.


 2007/6/15 6:42
elected
Member



Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK

 Re:

UniqueRevWeb wrote:

Quote:
We do not know if we are among the Elect. We can't. We are not in a position to know.



I dont believe in election according to the interpretation of calvinists but i wholehearted believe what the bible says about predestination and election, even though i cannot understand it.

Why did Paul say to the Ephesians believers that they were predestined if that was not possible for him to know?
"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will" (Eph 1: 11)
In the same passage He said, "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."
So the ephesians who were predestined were sealed with the Holy Spirit who was their garantee. The assurrance of salvation is posible in this life ( Rom 8), the witness of the Holy Spirit is the greatest assurance that we as the children of God can have.Since assurance is a possible reality for us, so is possible of knowing without doubt that we are elected by Him.

If we are assure of our salvation, then we are assure of our election.In 1Peter1:10 the believers to whom the letter was originally adressed were exhorted to make their calling and election sure.Peter would not say to them such a thing if that was not a possibility in this life.

"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy" 1 Peter 2: 9-10
Those christians to whom Peter wrote had received mercy and they became a chosen race.He didnt say, " you may became a chosen race or in heaven you will know for sure if you are a chosen race".he wrote in present tense, "you are".

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life" (1John 5: 10)

Conclusion
If we believe in the Son of God as our Lord and Savior we can have eternal life, and we can know it NOW before we go to heaven, so those who believe and obey God are those who are chosen by him.If Christ is our ROCK then we are secure in such a firm foundation.

Blessings,

Redi


_________________
Redi

 2007/6/15 8:07Profile









 Re:

Elect, you just asked:

"Why did Paul say to the Ephesians believers that they were predestined if that was not possible for him to know?"

The Mystery kept secret was Jew and Gentile becoming "One New Man"...this was Kept Secret,until Jesus rose from the dead. It was the Church, His Body , the Bride that was predestined. We do have little glimpses in the OT about this. In Genesis, the Picture of Adam and Eve. Eve was Bone of His Bone and Flesh of His flesh. When Eve sinned, Adam laid down his own life out of love for Eve. Adam knew exactly what he was doing. That is a picture or Type of Christ, of Jesus laying down His life for His Bride. Even though it was hidden in these Types, it was still there, not fully revealed.

There is a verve in 1 Corinthians 2 that says,
If the princes of this world had known, they never would have crucified the Lord. The Princes of this world were and are satan and the fallen angels...The prince and power of the air. Had satan known that through Jesus death and resurrection that he would lose all power over death as he has. I believe this is why it was kept secret. Now there are no more secrets.

Love in Christ
Katy-did
:-)

Just added: I have to add this so it all makes sense. Adam and Eve were of the earth...earthly. They were Never considered co-heirs with Christ. We the Church are. The New Creation, that was predestined and predetermined before the foundation of the world was that God, wanting to bring many sons in to share His GLORY. We are seated with Christ in Heavenly places. This was never promised to earthly Adam and Eve. Think about it, if Adam and Eve had NEVER sinned, what would they be today? Still earthly, made out of the dust of the earth. The New Creation is that our history in the first earthly Adam and Eve ended at the Cross, and we are a New Creation In Christ...we are flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone. This is the Church. Read the End of Ephesians 5.

Thanks for listening!!

 2007/6/15 8:38
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re: OSAS

dear forrest,

i am new here, but i've been following the discussion for the last couple of days.. i guess my question would be "When was Paul constantly doubting his salvation?? i don't see that. i see paul urging us to see the great riches of Christ. to see how we are His and He is ours..The Bible tells us that he who has the Son has life. it says that if we have received Christ than we have the Spirit of Christ in our hearts..I see where Paul urges us to deny ourself and to be living sacrifices, but now where he was afraid of losing his salvation.. if you could please clear that statement up for me, i would be very appreciative..

ps. sorry, i don't know how to take someone's post and show them what they said..still trying to figure some of this computer stuff out..thanks.

 2007/6/15 8:42Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

i think one thing we have to be reminding ourself is that if one is TRULY born again, than they have the TRUE TEACHER and 1 John 2 tells us that they have an annointing from the Holy One that abides in them..as He has done with all of us, He will lead us and protect us and keep us pursuing Him..He will put a hunger in our heart for Him because we are truly a new creation.. just something to think about.. thanks you guys, i appreciate all that you guys have written to provoke new thought..

 2007/6/15 9:14Profile









 Re:

1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

We would be lost without the Holy Spirit who teaches, and enlightens us.

Hebrews says God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek HIM. And James says, when we need wisdom, ask God, and He will give to us. I know this is true. It’s the Word of God that is living and powerful and sharper than a two edge sword. It cuts right to the heart of truth. It cuts between soul and spirit, bone and marrow. By Faith, we Believe what God says is true. Maybe we don’t have full knowledge of everything, but we don’t disregard His Promises because we don’t understand them. And our failure to understand doesn’t annul the Promises. Look at Abraham and the Promise of Isaac. Now they waited over 75 to 99 years…something like that, and figured maybe they were to bring that promise in themselves. In doing so, Ishmael was born. That was not the promise. But Abraham and Sarah’s human failure did not annul the Promise of the Promised Child…Isaac.

The Promises of God are Yes and AMEN!!! Stand on those Promises, and tell the devil to take a hike!

Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

 2007/6/15 9:55
Psalm73
Member



Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 60
Arkansas

 Re:

Is the Lorde which is health unto the gentiles, make you mistake your un-salvation obtained through men's precepts and commandments?
I presist inthe fact of that is more blessed to give than to recieve, yet no unshatterable trueth is obtained of why that purports to money
Lucre is not godliness, and thorow covetousness they shal make merchandise of any?
Would any of the disciples of Christ come at you today in the disguise of broad phylactries who as wolves in sheeps clothing are trying to rob you out of land, through O.Roberts, B.Hinn, M.Hickey,C.Dollar,Parsely,BoastfulHagee, and being blinded by B.Graham's "Circumision of cleanness and supposed goodness"
Yea, the scriptures back up that the Lord's doctrine carries no such bondage or griveous landen burthens.
Profess unto them Depart from me, I never knew you, ye workers of inquity

Romans 1:16 is still salvacion in the Tyndale orignal translation as well as all others
Yet healing thorow the laying on of handes by the holy ghost is refused by all ye having no spirit from GOd due to John's baptismofwater

Php 2:12 Wherefore my dearly beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not when I was present only, but now much more in mine absence, even so perform your own health with fear and trembling

2Ti 2:10 Herefore I suffer all things, for the elects’ sakes, that they might also obtain that health which is in Christ Iesu, with eternal glory

Brethren fear not when they deliver you up to councils for your believe, for wherefore by their fruits ye shal know them.

Despise not propheciyings, quench not the spirit, and let brotherly love continue. Neither be ye liars againste the truth
(1537-2007 English O.T)
Jeremy 20;¶ O LORD, thou makest me weak, but thou refreshest me, and makest me strong again. All the day long am I despised, and laughed to scorn of every man:
8 because I have now preached long against malicious Tyranny, and shewed them of destruccyon. For the which cause they cast the word of the LORD in my teeth, and take me ever to the worst.
9 Wherefore, I thought from hence forth, not to speak of him, nor to preach any more in his name. But the word of the LORD was a very burning fire in my heart and in my bones, which when I would have stopped, I might not.
10 For why, I heard so many derysions and blasphemies, yea even of my own companions, and such as were conversant with me: which went about, to make me afraid, saying: upon him, let us go upon him, to fear him, and make him hold his tongue: that we may overcome him, and be avenged of him.
11 But the LORD stood by me, like a mighty giant: therefore my persecutors fell, and could do nothing. They shall be sore confounded, for they have done unwisely, they shall have an everlasting shame.
12 And now, O LORD of Hosts, thou righteous searcher (which knowest the reins and the very hertes:) let me see them punished, for unto thee I committ my cause.
13 Synge unto the LORD, and praise him, for he hath delivered the soul of the oppressed, from the hand of the violent.


Have you marked well the raven? Much are ye better than the fowls

SUbmit not to the non sons of God, coming at you by Ballim and not by the chosen precious Christ Jesus, who in the I became J during the Geneva translation 1560, so the Tyndale's and Matthew's I looks like a fancy J, as in Iesus, Iacob and Israel? Israell don't use no J

Reioyce in the Lord alway, agayne I saie reioyce


_________________
Terry L Merritt

 2007/6/15 10:41Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

dear psalm 73,

did i miss something?? i thought we were discussing if one could ever get out of christ if one has truly been placed in union with Christ. maybe you could clarify what you are trying to say.. thanks.

dear katy-did,

thank you so much for your wonderful insight into john chapter 6.. i have been contemplating how many of the people following Christ would have been considered by men to have been saved because they followed him and praised Him for the miracles and the things he had done. it even said that they wanted to make Him king (john 6:15), but when he lays down the true cost of fellowship, they walk away (john 6:66).. in the same way, many follow for a time (3 months, 1 year, 3 years) but when the Lord ask them to truly lay down all and follow Him, many turn away. man calls a lot of these people saved, but the Lord does not know them and consequently they do not know that Lord.. just thought i share that with everyone.

 2007/6/15 11:20Profile









 Re:

OH PHIL, You just made my day!!!!!! You know, growing up, I never heard the WHOLE Gospel....the John 6 part, and when I did, there you go, Total Surrender. The Lord took those words of Truth and asked me right there and then, I want your whole life. I had to make a decision...free will... and my first question tot eh Lord was...What about my(no name here) husband? I didn't get an answer but the Lord was still waiting for mine. I said YES, and I feel on that day, I was born Again. I do believe this is the Gospel that is missing today, the Truth the Whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Now many want to call it a second blessing...but I can find no scripture to back up. When Cornelius heard I' sure then the Whole Gospel, He was Born Again and received the gift of the Holy Spirit. No second blessing there.

Yes, and from that day on, my life has not been my own. I found out I Hungered and thirsted after righteousness like never before. I would wake up in the middle of the night and just read and read and read the Bible...I couldn't get enough, and the presence of the Holy Spirit was right there. Yes, we are called to be crucified with Christ, and raised up with Him. John 6 is that life, not earthly blessings, but Heavenly blessings.

Persecution...oh yes!!! Did the devil torment me...oh yes, did my old friends and even churchy friends try to keep me in the world...oh yes! But Guess what, it was God and His faithfulness that KEPT me in Him, and showed me that the world and all that is in it could not compare to our life in Christ. I give Him all the Glory, and KNOW HE is Able to keep all I have committed unto Him. I gave Him my life and He has Kept it and will continue to Keep it.
Do I fail, Yes! My failures do not cause me to lose my Salvation, because through MY failures I have learned God never fails...I will always, in my flesh fail, and we need to learn that. Christ in You never fails. We grow up into Him into all the Fullness and Statute of Jesus Christ, and it is God who does abundantly above all we could possible ask or think. To God be the Glory! I just can't praise Him enough.

God Bless and Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

 2007/6/15 11:50





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