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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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 Re:

Katy, I felt it would be wrong to not reply to your last post to me because I need to let you know for sure that I'm not mad at you or feeling any malice or unforgiveness.
I just felt that the good replies you and I were having through-out this thread were lost after my 2007/6/13 15:28 post. That's when all communications went hay-wire. It wasn't even over your beliefs that I had posted about, but that one post changed the way you interpreted everything I said from then on and I felt you weren't 'reading' me all along.
Please, for fellowship sake, if you would, just go back to that one reply of mine and read both of our dialogs from then on.

You didn't "just simply ask" and I didn't accuse you of not being loving ... but you did accuse in a way, that I was pushing some New Age Love Dove compromise doctrine for unity stuff, just because I had been appealing for peace and understanding between you and Forrest and all of us.

Forrest is in a lot of pain and I can relate to her sufferings. It's hard to post 'perfectly' when you've been hit by a car and suffer permanent damage. I too am disabled, so maybe that's why I notice when folks say that they are.
That's why I stepped in between, so to speak, after she posted, to take some of the heat and maybe just give us pause to consider just 'who' in The Body of Christ is behind these Monitors of ours. And mainly, are we even considering the life they're having to live - yet come here to "fellowship" and not to be beaten or allow our trials to cause us to beat anyone else.

Please, if you can, read just back to what happened to your and my good rapport, from that one post of mine addressed to both Forrest and yourself.

And please, don't say that we are coming against "the preaching of the cross or the gospel" ---- even though I did Not post Scripture to prove against OSAS, I only posted many attempts to reconcile and allow us to discuss this in a way that would edify each person here, who may or may not hold to your view or whether a person can leave the faith - divorse from Him by spiritual adultry or "fall away" from Christ or not. That's not my point and hasn't been to prove you wrong, not at all, but just, how we present each side was.

On the deity of Christ, if someone comes against that, I will be the first to pull out my compiled file against that. On legalism I may too. But this one issue, again, I won't divide over.

Praying.
annie

 2007/6/14 16:23









 Re: Jeff

I was only watching us females on here. I try not to interfere too much with man talk, but I just went back and saw that Jeff DID notice, very much so, Forrest's injury. PRAISE GOD JEFF.

Wow, thank God for men like you.

My apologies for saying "no one noticed" - it was just me who didn't notice a Brother's post between our girl talk.

Jesus be merciful to us all.
In His Grace.
Thank you Jeff.
:-)

 2007/6/14 16:50
Psalm73
Member



Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 60
Arkansas

 Re:

Brotherly felishippe is a must. Wo unto us for we are spoiled, we are utterly wasted, for it is a bitter thing that thou hast departed from your Lord. First of all salvation is a limited use verse to describe God's savyng power, yet Genevaists under calvin used that grek word to subsitute health and savyng health, which healing is a part of grace.
1Co 15:17 If it be so that Christ rose not, then is your faith in vain, and yet are ye in your sins

We see as brothers in Christ the maintanance of bishopes and deacons as non worldly authority in the congregations of Christ. Long suffering and kindness, can oft be omitted when one defends their mistaken authority that Christ granted not neither in the law ner the prophets,
yet, ye when will ye submit yourselves before the lorde and not deny Christ Iesus before men?

Keepnot your selves in the secret brethren, lest sleep comeuponu and y fall away ; Weep between the porch and the altar y ministers of the Lorde, lest the Lord's indiginacion break forth like a fire and bunr that no may quech iyt.

Jeremy 13 2 ¶ Therefore lay this riddle before them, and say: Thus sayeth the LORD God of Israel: Every pot shall be filled with wine. And they shall say: thinkest thou we know not, that every pot shall be filled with wine?
13 Then shalt thou say unto them: Thus sayeth the LORD: Behold, I shall fill all the inhabiters of this land with drunkenness, the kings that sit upon David’s stool, the Priests and Prophets, with all that dwell at Jerusalem.
14 And I will shoot them one against another, yea the fathers against the sons, sayeth the LORD. I will not pardon them, I will not spare them, nor have pity upon them: but destroy them.
15 Be obedient, give ear, take no disdain at it, for it is the LORD himself that speaketh.
(1537 Matthew's text, with modern glosses)
16 Honour the LORD your God herein, or he take his light from you, and or ever your fete stumble in darkness at the hyl: lest when ye look for the light, he turn it into the shadow and darcknesse of death.

17 But if ye will not hear me, that give you secret warning, I will mourn from my whole heart for your stubbornness. Piteously will I weep, and the tears shall gush out of mine eyes. For the LORD’s flock shall be carried away captive.


I hope brethren ye will see that we walk after God's commandments and are not of those that draw back into perdition, but rather are signets of God's health, and salvacio.

This would be a friend of MOses if he chose this N.T, without all the extra 'thats'

Ac 13:26 Ye men and brethren, children of the generation off Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is this word of health sent.
Ac 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us: I have made thee a light to the gentiles, that thou be health unto the end of the world.

How we write as Tyndale did in "The wicked mammon"
Ye cannot serve two masters, neither sin unto death, if in obedience unto righteousnes, you cannot return because of the laying on of handes of the baptism of fire and the holy ghost, and because no man preaches ressurection from death, as well as hell, made specially for dathan's.

end of Christian sermon exposition


_________________
Terry L Merritt

 2007/6/14 17:02Profile









 Re:

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, [u]and keepeth them[/u], he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 15:6 [u] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned[/u].

Joh 15:10 [u]IF ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love;[/u] even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jn 1:6 [u] If[/u] we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 1Jn 1:7 But[u] if [/u]we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, [u]abide in him[/u]; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him,[u] if we keep his commandments. [/u]
1Jo 2:4 [u] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.1Jn 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.[/u]

1Jn 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
1Jn 2:9 [u] He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes. [/u]

1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. [u]If[/u] that which ye have heard from the beginning shall [u]remain in you, ye also shall continue[/u] in the Son, and in the Father.

1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 [u]If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.[/u]
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example.
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him.

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became[u] the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him[/u]

Act 5:32 "And we are His witnesses of these matters, and also the Holy Spirit, whom God gave to [u]the ones obeying Him[/u]."

Rom 2:7 [u]To them who by patient continuance[/u] in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1Ti 1:19 [u]Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck [/u]

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times[u] some shall depart from the faith[/u], giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: [u]for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee[/u].

1Ti 5:12 [u] Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith[/u].

2Co 13:5 [u]Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?[/u]

Col 1:23 [u]IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel[/u], which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

Mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but [u]IF[/u] the salt have lost his savor, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, [u]neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. [/u]

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; [u]IF[/u] so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, [u]IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.[/u]

1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat.

1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1Th 3:8 For now we live, [u]IF[/u] ye stand fast in the Lord.

Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, [u]IF[/u] we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, [u]IF[/u] we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briars is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2Th 2:3 [u]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first[/u], and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 2Pe 1:10 [u]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF ye do these things, ye shall never fall[/u]

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 2007/6/14 18:32
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

No man has ever kept the commandments of God and surely cannot unless he is a new creature in Christ Jesus by His life in us.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

This includes keeping His commandments even as He kept the Fathers'.

New birth, New Creature, now the truth is in us and we have the capacity to and want to keep His commandments. Without Him we are nothing, but in Him we can overcome all things.

Why do we overcome? Revelation 13:8-9 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear.

Who wrote us in the book of the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world, from Adam to now and those that will be saved that are already in the Lambs book. It is Christ Jesus and the Father.

Ephesians 1:3-13 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

To be chosen before the foundation we were written in the Lambs Book of Life already and were kept track of from the foundation and Jesus says He will not loose those that the Father Gave Him.

Jhn 14:31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Again let us go hence. John 14:28-31 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

Let us love God as Jesus Christ has and each other, even so we do Arise, let us go hence.

For it is The birthed Christ in you that is our Glory and has made us son's of God. Walk in Him, this is the hence wherewith we go.

You cannot loose what God has birthed in you. We are son's and daughters of God by His doing not ours.

Walk as son's and daughter's of God by birthright.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Phl 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he

Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Walk in the birth of Christ in you or walk in the number of a man 666.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/6/14 19:57Profile









 Re:

Not One Scripture verse from the N.T. will ever "cancel out" another verse.

This is exactly why I didn't want to go this route in posting the "if you will" type verses that I have above, because it is always followed by the ones that people 'think' 'cancel out' all of the ones I posted, which was a partial list.

Again, I have to go back to the "both/and" of this doctrine. We work/He works = both/and - Phil. 2:12,13, just for one example of "us abiding" Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

MOST all of Jesus' parables were about those who fall away.

It is not that we cannot obey the commandments, but several times it is written and spoken by Jesus himself, that if we do not obey His commandments we will "Not Continue in Him or be known by Him and the Father".

What are these commandments ... that was stated many times through-out the Word, especially from John --- Love the Lord you God and your neighbor as yourself - thus fulfilling all the law and the prophets.

How can we continue to beat each other with our bibles, is what I asked some pages ago.

Your verses are truer than true but the ones I posted or any one else are also truer than true.

Neither cancel out the other.

Forrest, please again notice that "predestination" IS the root of this belief, and again, 'that' is what the debate is.


I don't feel predestination is worth this.
That is why I kept giving my definition of who the Elect are, from all that I've read through-out the Word.


I can't see this going anywhere except further Bible verse wars, which is unscriptural.

The 'promises' never cancel out the Commands and consequences.

Those who post verses 'thinking' theirs contradict or un-do or nulify the ones you've posted is wrong - very wrong.

Philip ended his with my favorite verses, so I'll take one from there.

Php 3:11 IF by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

 2007/6/14 20:22
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved???

My dear ones,

I thank you for all your deep interest in going over this question so deeply.

Oddly, despite all that's been said, I feel as if we have not touched the heart of the question I was asking from the beginning.

Once Saved, Always Saved is a doctrine related to Election by Fore-Ordination and Predestination.

To resolve any questions about my viewpoints, I happen to believe in God's Soveriegnty, and His right to do as He pleases with us, include Elect to Salvation or Damn whomever He pleases.

That is His right as our Creator. But our God has rules for Himself about Justice and Mercy, on Compassion and Grace.

Quote:
Rookie said :
[color=993300]Job 33:14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, [yet man] perceiveth it not.

15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;

16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,

17 That he may withdraw man [from his] purpose, and hide pride from man.

18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

19 ¶ He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong [pain]:

20 So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat.

21 His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones [that] were not seen stick out.

22 Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.

23 ¶ If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:

24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.

25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:

26 He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.

27 He looketh upon men, and [if any] say, I have sinned, and perverted [that which was] right, and it profited me not;

28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.

29 Lo, all these [things] worketh God oftentimes with man,

30 To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.

[/color]


Consequently, I also believe, at one and the same time, that God does want our willing cooperation in becoming a member of His family.

He offers His Son's sufferings to us, and says, "Whosover will...."

[color=993300]Mark 8:34 Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.


Matthew 10:32. Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.[/color]

God gives us choice in the matter. The fact that from an Eternal viewpoint He has known from the beginning who would take His invitation to righteousness through Christ is, for the purpose of this post, irrelevant. It is irrelevant to most Christians. God knows, but we do not.

We do not know if we are among the Elect. We can't. We are not in a position to know.

And I do not believe that God wants us to take an attitude of, "I'm special...God chose me, and not you!"

In leaving it up to us to make a freewill choice, of "Whomsoever will....", God is requiring us to make sure of our salvation by obeying Christ's Commands to [color=993300]"Love God with all your mind, heart, soul, and strength; and your neighbor as your self".[/color] If we do obey, we will consequently produce fruit unto Christ.

We are taught what to do to keep from falling prey to the devil, which then presupposes the ability to fall.

[color=993300]1 Corinthians 10:12. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.[/color]

The doctrine of predestination is flat out taught from Genesis onwards. Grace begins with Christ's death, and the beginning of the New Covenant.

Election and Free-Will acceptance of Grace, to me, happen at the same time, since Election is from God's viewpoint, and Free-Will acceptance of Grace is from our viewpoint.

Which is why I asked a simple question long ago.

What are we to tell unbelievers and newcaught fish about God and Christ? Are we to confuse them by saying they may or may not be Elect? Are we to tell them they are always saved, no matter what they do, because they asked Jesus into their hearts, and were baptised?

Had someone told me that after my baptism, I might be a well known, popular 'Psychic', possessed by a dozen demons, and believing I was 'saved'!

Not being works based, to me fruit comes naturally to any believer after conforming ourself to the image of Christ. It happens bit by bit, with the help of the Holy Spirit. If one obeys Jesus, and tries to do what He wants, the Holy Spirit works within us and changes us. You walk in love, and kindess, and patience, and well, fruit happens!

So, are we to tell unbelievers and newcaught fish that they must do this and that, or they will not be saved, loading them down with the Law again? Paul would say, [color=993300]"God Forbid!"[/color]

How much of a burden must we lay on those who are coming to us for instruction?

When I laid out my life in previous posts, and my experience of going through all four sowings of the Parable Jesus spoke of, I tried to show how dangerous it was to tell a babe too much of God's position of Election, and Man's experience of that Election as Grace. I also recognize the danger of telling that same babe that he must follow the 'rules and regulations', or Grace doesn't apply!

How much of a burden must we lay on those who are coming to us for instruction?

What do we explain to an adult who comes to us, seeking instruction?

On my little web site I don't talk about Wesley or Calvin, Luther, or Zwinglii.

I talk about the grace God offers us, that because humans can't be perfect, we can't get into Heaven without Jesus. I tell people that God is offering us a tremendous bargain..."Believe that My Son came to earth, was born as a baby of the Virgin Mary, lived a perfect human life because He was also Divine, and died in our place, so we can go to heaven, and you will go to heaven!

[color=993300]Matthew 7:13. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
[/color]

Suddenly, we are talking about a decision to believe, and the faith that God gives us to maintain our decision, and grow in Him, we in Jesus, and Jesus in us.

[color=993300]Matthew 11:27. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.[/color]

We use the scriptures to warn new believers that the Deceiver is out there, and wants them to fail, and that's why they have to avoid bad company, or be careful to keep a few rules, for their own safety.

Yes, as they seek the word, they will in time come to Paul's writings that discuss the legality of God doing what He said he would do, from Jewish Prophecy from the Jewish viewpoint!

And they will be a bit confused until they get the whole picture, the entire gestault of the Bible, but if they are soundly grounded in the faith that God gives them, and they practice that faith, getting up again and again, when they fall, and starting over, knowing Jesus is right there with them, helping them to get up, and that the Holy Spirit will continually make things to work out for good for those that love the Lord, and are called according to His purpose, they can slowly figure out that all of the Bible goes together.

Even when it sounds as if the Word is in conflict, because two statements negate each other, it is because the context is not being considered, nor is who that is speaking.

And so I am back to my original question. Do you want an unbeliever or a babe in Christ that has come to you for instruction to be told Once Saved, Always Saved?

And remember, that statement alone creates a firestorm amongst mature Christians, who are fairly sure, so long as they keep going as they are, with Jesus in them, and the Holy Spirit teaching them, that they are of the Elect that God promised to Jesus.

Do you want me to tell these people who know nothing of doctrines or famous theologists that if they ask Jesus into their heart, that they can never, under any circumstances, be tricked into walking away from Jesus? That the Devil is not seeking to devour them when it is written that he is?

[color=993300]1 Peter 5

1. The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2. Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3. Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
5. Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
6. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7. Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
8. Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9. Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
10. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
11. To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.[/color]

Or shall I just talk to them of Jesus, and what He did for us, that we might be with Him forever, living in victory in this life, and in a glorified body with Him in the New Jerusalem, and always be with Jesus, throughout eternity?


Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/6/14 21:58Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"""Do you want me to tell these people who know nothing of doctrines or famous theologists that if they ask Jesus into their heart, that they can never, under any circumstances, be tricked into walking away from Jesus? That the Devil is not seeking to devour them when it is written that he is?"""

In the Flesh they can walk away and those are sins of the flesh and will separate them from the Oneness God wants with them. The Christ in them cannot sin so their birthing is secure and they cannot loose that salvation. They can separate themselves from God by their flesh but they cannot separate themselves from the Spirit of Christ that is born again in them. That birth is secure and will not be aborted and cannot be. "I will never leave you" Either you are born again or you are not. How do we know if Christ is in us. John makes it simple: 1 John 5:10-13 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. Yes tell these people that they cannot loose their salvation, it is of God, but the devil will seek to deceive and devour them to that their witness for God is trampled under his feet. It is God that Satan is after and just uses us to get at Him. But, that does not mean that we can loose our salvation, Christ in us is the Hope of Glory and God wins with every person that has Him in them.
That was the victory at the Cross. Amen

Satan not only wants to destroy our witness but also to destroy our faith given by Christ through Grace and get us to believe that we are still in control of our salvation and can loose it by our actions and works of sin, which Christ cannot forgive.

Either you have the Spirit of Christ or you do not. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Maintaining all the commandments is not our responsibility or the Law would still be in effect. Maintaining is up to the Christ that is in us and by His resurrection power and His Cross, not ours, are we able to know that our salvation is secure. No man can keep the commandments of God or Christ would not have had to come and go to the Cross. So all of the, ifs, whens, if nots, and will be's, are our responsibility only knowing that the Christ in us is the only one that can do them and we must depend on Him for our life and we will never loose it, if we don't we will and can loose it. "Christ in you the Hope of Glory is the only answer to all these questions, for He is the only One that can keep them and us by the sealing of the Holy Spirit of God into Christ, which make us quite secure, for I know no one that can snatch us our of His hands.

In Christ our all in all and our life and security in our salvation God has given by His will and choice: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/6/14 23:14Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
In the Flesh they can walk away and those are sins of the flesh and will separate them from the Oneness God wants with them. The Christ in them cannot sin so their birthing is secure and they cannot loose that salvation. They can separate themselves from God by their flesh but they cannot separate themselves from the Spirit of Christ that is born again in them. That birth is secure and will not be aborted and cannot be.





Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

When Paul writes "For if you live according to the flesh you will die:"

What kind of death is Paul speaking of here, physical or spiritual?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/6/15 0:51Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Sister Katy-did wrote:

Quote:
Ephesians 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the COVENANT”S” of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:



Isn't Paul stating that the Gentiles were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants, having no hope...

Scripture teaches that there has always been a remnant saved by grace and not of works...

Romans 10:

10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

Please note that Paul in this section of Scripture point to the OT Scriptures as proof of the grace extended toward those who call on the (Holy One of Israel)...the Lord.

Rom. 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

In the above section of Scripture Paul points to the apostate generation in which Elijah lived. In this generation we find that God by "election of grace" saved 7000 others that Elijah did not know.


Sis asks:

Quote:
Jeff, how many Gospels are there? One for the Jews and another for the Gentile?

Do I enter one way any you another? Do I have these promises and you don’t?



Romans 10

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

In Isaiah's generation the gospel was preached as well.

Heb. 4:2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

In yet another generation we find that the same gospel was preached according to what is written in Hebrews.

What is important to understand is that Christ who is known in the OT as the Holy One is also working in the same manner as He is now. He is the High Priest according to the Order of Melchizedeck. He was Abraham's High Priest also.

Sis

I write this not intending to start a debate, but maybe just to point out some things that I have seen in Scripture...I am sure I don't have everything right...but the entire Scriptures speak of a remnant that is saved by grace. As you read the OT look for the working of this grace...

Prov. 4:4 He also taught me, and said to me:
“Let your heart retain my words;
Keep my commands, and live.

God Bless
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/6/15 1:15Profile





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