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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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 Re:

Quote:
by Katy-did on 2007/6/12 10:41:12

Forrest, You said *If we are Elect, we will not know it until our salvation is assured, either through a walk so holy and divinely inspired, so full of fruit of the Spirit that one simply knows that Christ is in him, and he is in Christ, or when we are with Christ, and past the travail of this life.*

People have put a wrong understanding on the word ELECT, and with that wrong understanding a strange twist that if you measure up to certain standards, maybe just maybe you will be that lucky person who finds our in the end they are the elect.



Hi Katy-did,

You left out my take on who the "elect" are in the above.

Those who GOD did FOREKNOW would be faithful unto the end.

Just look up all the verses that mention foreknowledge, in any tense it's written in and then the words elect or election and predestined and lay them all side by side. Such as Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Calvin once said, that people won't know if they are the elect until death or resurrection. That God allows some to believe they are Saved when they are Not Elect.
So, there's a fear of not feeling one is of The Elect even in the Reformed Theology group.

So I feel "more secure" feeling that as long as I "stay faithful unto the end" that I am Elect, then if I have to wonder 'if' I am The Elect as most reformed type denominations teach.
I've been in many Churches that teach T.U.L.I.P. and when I've been in conversation with them, they say "they 'hope' they make it" or "hope that they are one of the "chosen" or Elect."

So I've found their "assurance" level was lower than mine.
I also don't trust my own strength to get me through unto the end and do appreciate the verses that speak of His holding power, but I strongly believe in freewill. So God could prove to Satan, that we "chose" to Love God and that He didn't create a bunch of robots .... so Satan can't say, "they only love you because you elected them to be pre-programmed to nothing else". {Similar of how he accused God in the beginning of Job}


Blessings as Always, in His Love.
Annie too

 2007/6/12 13:40
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Sister,

I have to be honest. You seem to have a very healthy ( and scripturally solid ) idea of what you and we all are capable of apart from Christ. I respectfully suggest that you are lacking, as we all are, in a full understanding of the surpassing strength of Christ to save us to the uttermost and His power and promise not to allow anything or anyone to separate us from His love and Himself. You are His sheep and His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him. Those who have come to Him will be raised up on the last day. Is our faith tested under trial, sometimes severe? Yes. Will He let us finally fall away? As Charles Spurgeon said, Never, Never, Never. I don't know if OSAS is the same as the doctrine of perseverence of the saints. The concept of cheap grace ( do what you want if you are a Christian ) is not part of the true doctrine of perseverence of the saints.

 2007/6/12 14:08Profile









 Re:

1 Peter 2
Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

3If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

4To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, ( WHO WAS?) ANS: JESUS CHRIST.

5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Who also? ANS: (THE CHURCH....HIS BODY)

6Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect,(WHO???>>>JESUS) precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. WHO will not be counfounded? ANS:(WHOSOEVER WILL)

7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence,"(for the preaching of the Cross is to those who parish foolishness, but to us who are saved, it is the power of God)" (THOSE WHO REJECT THE CROSS BECAUSE THEY ARE OFFENDED BY THE CROSS, AS WAS THE JEWS WHO PREFERRED THE LAW, STUMBLED OVER THE STUMBLING STONE...JESUS CHRIST) even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; *******that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;******THE PURPOSE OF THE ELECT,****IS TO EXALT JESUS CHRIST AND PROCLAIM THE GOSPEL.*****

10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, ********but now have obtained mercy.****
HOW DID THEY OBTAIN THIS MERCY?

Remember the Ark of the covenant? What was on top? Answer: The Mercy Seat!!! Yes even in the OT. Jesus Christ is our Mercy Seat, and with His own blood made the way once and for all. This is the GOOD NEWS we proclaim to a lost and dying world. Election is not about US, it's about Jesus Christ.

Now, no commentary is needed here...Scripture teaches Scripture. Salvation is of the Jews, it always has been, it always will be. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is grounded in the OT. There is no such thing as a "new" Gentile Gospel. Gentiles are partakers of the Covenant's" of promise. Ephesians.
Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

 2007/6/12 14:21









 Re:

Hi y'all.

I came to my conclusions that I posted above by doing the very thing I had asked we try. Looking up every place where the three words are in their different tenses. Elect/Election & Foreknew & Predestined and putting them side by side.
I came to the conclusion of freewill for both the Jews and us and God's foreknowledge of what each person would do with their freewill, unto the end.
That doesn't in any way take away from the [u]"both/and"[/u] of His Holding us or us holding Him. Otherwise, I'd have to erase a LOT of Scripture, that show the of both/and, from the O.T to the New.


Katy, did you read my post ? Ha. :-D

NO, I didn't come to my conclusions on anything from Commentaries, but Scripture interpreting Scripture. Ho !

But I don't think you need me to Post all of the "both/and" verses through-out the entire Bible. Hoy Vey, don't tell me ya want me to ?


QUOTE: "HOW DID THEY OBTAIN THIS MERCY?"


By the same "if you will" verses through out the Old Testament ~ that is interpreted by the New Testament.

P.S. Like your icon. But let's not beat each other with our icons. Haaaa.

Love you a lot.
annie again

I love Spurgeon, etc. as you know, that's why I'm here. I love to agree where we agree. And we do more than we know. :-D

 2007/6/12 14:47
elected
Member



Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved???

hmmhmm wrote:

Quote:
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.



Being an overcomer is a message almost missing in evangelical churches today.Despite the theological bias (calvinist, arminian or whatever), i think there is a subtle deception creeping in unaware in evangelical believers.Sincerity is not enough to protect us from the subtle lies the devils may 'whisper' to the 'ear' of the naive and the spiritually dull.

The devil has a great knowledge about the bible when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness it was through the scriptures that he tried to deceive the Son of God but failed, the Lord masterfully wilded the Sword of God and gave the enemy a blow.

It doesnt bother me much if somebody beliefs and convictions have some nonessantial errors about doctrines of scriptures like electionn justification, salvation or true perseverance of saints ect.What i am afraid is when believers read the bible to find support for their personal convictions, or they have already their prejudgements formed in their mind and they try hard to conform their strong opinions from the Bible without any spiritual enlightment or approvement from the Spirit.


When christians dont keep their hearts tender and open before God so that He can instruct them and correct their falls and erronous theological beliefs but fall pray of the opinion of others or traditionalism, or read the Bible through the glasses of somebody else. Tozer was fond of saying," I refuse to allow any man to put his glases on me and force me to see everything in his light." Unless we conform with the scripture our convictions and are not only sincere but conscience that our beliefs have not only a strong support from the word of God but the Holy Spirit has enlighten you in such a way a to cast out any doubt, you will not be deceived by the devil.

I'm afraid that most of our convictions are formed not from the Holy Spirit by from pastors and theologians and that particular tradition we come from.I belief that somebody who has once been saved from his past sins can be in great danger if they fall from grace. God warning in Rev. 3:5 are for the church and not for the world.If we are not overcomers in Christ but lovers of the world or spiritually blind and lukewarm we are treading a forbiden ground better take heed the warnings of God and escape the danger and listen the voice of the Spirit.

I want to walk according to the light God has revealed to me from his Word and the Holy Spirit.
Our Teacher here is the Holy Spirit, it is he who is our best interpreter of the scriptures and the One who anoints us inwardly to understand the truths from the bible. But alas, that last thing many of us do is to be dependant on Him for new fresh insights from God's word.

I'm aware that many saints of God throughout the centuries have had some theological errours, some were even branded as 'heretics' by the majority in the church, but one day in heaven we shall be surprized to find many of those that we thoughts damned to be in heaven and many that we thought saved damned in hell with all their 'dead orthodoxy'.

The devil has done a great achievement in planting a 'pharisaic christianity' in our midts that shines with all the damned "glory" of the fallen angel of light.As long as we are preocupied with theological systems and strugle to keep ourself deeply orthodox in our brains but far from experimental knowledge of God, i think the devil will not worry much about us.Let a christian thirst and yearn for experimental knowledge of the Holy and let him mount up in the narrow path of holinness and the devil will show him his teeth and resistance. He is a great loser when he faces an OVERCOMER and spiritual warrior who anticipates by prayer every surprise of the Evil One.

How many of us sleep on the 'soft bed' of unexperimental doctrines God knows, if we have some spiritual discerments from God, i wander how many shipwrecks we will see as we sail through the seas on our way to the 'haven' of heaven?

One thing i know that every true child of God who knows personally the Lord and has a faith that works by LOVE is secure under the wing of the Almighty.He is able to keep us from falling away who love the truth and hate the works of darkness and preserve us to the end, to the praise of his glory.





_________________
Redi

 2007/6/12 14:51Profile









 Re:

Maybe this will help,

GrannyAnnie, No I didn't mean you came to any conclusions through commentaries. Sorry if you mis-understood.

Look at John 17: I pulled from: 16 -23.
There are many wonderful nuggets of truth here.

Who is Jesus praying for? The Elect? Yes, but who are the elect? Look at verse 20. Then go to the end, ...He's talking about those In CHRIST. Now look at Colossians 3:1-4, can you see the comparison? Yes, those who are crucified with Christ,(out history in adam 1 ended at the cross) we are now raised a New Creation IN CHRIST, no longer part of this world system, HIDDEN WITH GOD IN CHRIST! Who is? The Church. The "church" is the pearl of great price Jesus sold all for.

I think what happens is when we are saved, we still see ourselves as a *me myself and I* kinda thing. As we grow into Maturity, we don't see ourself as an individual but a member of the Body of Christ. Jesus is the Head of the Body, and we are members one of another. Many scriptures are talking about the Body, not individuals. The ONE New Man, is about the New Creation, even though we are part of that New Creation, because we are members of and joined to Jesus Christ, who is the Head, He, Jesus has pre-emninance.

Anyway, when looking at all scripture about elect, don't overlook Jesus last will and testament for the elect. it clearly states...whosoever will in verse 20.

16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. ( TO DO WHAT?) Preach the Gospel.

19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20Neither pray I for these alone, ******but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

:-)

 2007/6/12 15:03









 Re: Hi !

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

I love this verse and pray the same.

I know all the eternal-security verses well, I just wanted to ask, did Jesus have freewill while in the flesh under the Father ?

Hey, I GOTTA get off of here. Ha!

Thanks sister/Friend.
TTYL
annie again

 2007/6/12 15:40









 Re:

GrannyAnnie, I love John 17. There is so much Truth in that chapter, yet the word ELECT is never used.

Well, as far as Jesus having free will, only from these verses I would say yes:

Jesus was in all ways tempted like us yet without sin.

Jesus said, not my will(free will?) but thine be done...or I came to do the Will of My Father.

Another He said, I can lay it down or take it up, (His life that is), so again according to scripture Yes.

Another says, He thought it not robery to be equal with God but "made himself" of no reputation, became a servant, became obedient unto death ann then God Highly exalted Him.

Well anyway, Just got excited about John 17. If Jesus wasn't praying for the elect, who was He praying for? Yet never once uses the term Elect. So if the Elect are some-others other than these, I sure don't know who they are. They are probably called "The others". Just kidding!!!

Love talking to you. You make me think of things I never thought of before. This is good!!!

Love in Christ
Katy-did
I love you Too! :-)

PS;Just added,
This is what is so wonderful about Romans 12:1&2.

With that renewed mind, God reveals His will to us, and in 1 Corinthians 2, has shown us wonderful things to come. Once you've had a glimpse, this world and all it offers and holds is filthy rags! That's the thing, Paul prayed in Ephesians 3, that we would know the length, breadth, depth and height (of Who?) Jesus Christ!

It gets better and better every day! Who wants to go back and waller in the mud? Me thinks it must be those who never tasted of the Heavenly things and the Riches in Christ Jesus. That's why it is so important to know you have true repentance and true faith....not just head knowledge.

 2007/6/12 16:46









 Re:



Elected, and everyone else here too,

Elected said: *One thing I know that every true child of God who knows personally the Lord and has a faith that works by LOVE is secure under the wing of the Almighty. He is able to keep us from falling away who love the truth and hate the works of darkness and preserve us to the end, to the praise of his glory.*

Oh how true those words are. How very very true.

I would like to share a poem I wrote 2 years after I was saved. I wrote it so long ago, I'd forgotten all about it until you posted this. The Truth is, one must be so grounded in God's Love in order to even be able to go on to be an overcomer. It's that rooting and grounding that is the anchor of our soul. Without it, you will always doubt. With that, Satan just loves to keep you at ground zero. He wants to make our feet like Hinds feet for High places.

This poem was written almost 30 years ago. It’s good to remember your beginnings.

Here goes...hope you don't mind my sharing..


GRACE
Lover of my soul so sweet,
I lay my all down at your feet,
And now inside my heart I feel,
It's you for sure, it's you for real.

Lord Jesus, all these years I see,
I never gave my *will* to thee,
If you were there inside my soul,
It's not been until now you've made me whole.

It's been 2 years so close to you,
Learning in schools (of life) you've put me through,
To help me grow, your shape instilled,
Inside a void that's now been filled.

From faith to faith I've learned to grow,
The Just Shall live by faith, "I Know"
At first the doubts, Oh God, I'd Cry,
So strange at first I thought I'd die.

How will I know the way to walk?
"Come follow me and we will talk."

"My word you'll have a hunger for,
And as you learn, an open door,
A work of faith for you to do,
Putting to practice the things I've taught you.

How come, before I couldn't see,
The joy that comes being close to Thee?
A constant companion always here inside,
Directing my steps Your hands will guide.

At four in the morning, you wake me and say,
"So quiet a time before a busy day"
Going over my doubts and restlessness too,
"Oh tell me what is bothering you?"

I'll say, "Oh Lord, will I ever learn the way,
and not stumble and fall and at times start to stray?
Oh why did I do that, I know now it's wrong",
And then in my heart comes this sweet little song:

"Depth of Mercy can there be,
Mercy still reserved for me?
Can my God His wrath forbear?
Me the chief of sinners spare?

I had long withstood His Grace,
Long provoked Him to His face,
Would not harken to His calls,
Grieved Him by a thousand falls.

Kindled His relentings are,
Me He now delights to spare,
Cries, "How shall I give the up?'
Lets the lifted thunder drop.

There to me the Savior stands,
Shows His wounds and spreads His hands,
God is love, I know I feel,
Jesus weeps and loves me still"
(By Charles Wesley)


Your MERCY so gracious,
You spend it on me,
Oh, what is this LOVE,
You want me to see?

It has no conditions,
Of which on my part,
I must work to earn it,
It's Grace you impart.

Oh Lord How I Love you,
Please don't let me stray
Away from this Home
My heart found this day.

My Shepherd, He leads me with tenderest care,
One day at a time my heart He'll prepare,
Through trials and testings with patience endure,
Learning to Trust Him, I start to Mature.

All fear leaves this love,
A peace now does land,
My heart Fixed on Jesus,
I REST in His Hand.

With Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-did :-)

(*Isaiah 41:10)


 2007/6/12 18:56
elected
Member



Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK

 Re:

Thanks Katy-did for sharing your poem it was an encouragement for me , reminding ourselves of the beginning of our faith it's a good thing because we remember the works of God in our heart and life and the change his grace did in us.

You wrote:
All fear leaves this love,
A peace now does land,
My heart Fixed on Jesus,
I REST in His Hand.

Very true, His perfect love cast out the fear in us. I love the 1 Corinthians 13 it's the hymn of love, of that devine love that never fails.

"Love is patient, love is kind.it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. it is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.Love does not dilight in evil but rejoices in truth.It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." 1cor 13:4-7

God is Love

John Wesley wrote a inspiring poem, sometimes when i here it sang with some godly music it touches me profoundly.

Let Me See Thy Face and Die

To Thee, great God of love! I bow,
And prostrate in Thy sight adore;
By faith I see Thee passing now;
I have, but still I ask for more,
A glimpse of love cannot suffice,
My soul for all Thy presence cries.
I cannot see Thy face, and live,
Then let me see Thy face, and die!

Moses Thy backward parts might view,
But not a perfect sight obtain;
The gospel doth Thy fulness show
To us, by the commandment slain;
The dead to sin shall find the grace
The pure in heart shall see Thy face.
I cannot see Thy face, and live,
Then let me see Thy face, and die!

Surrounded by the saints of old,
We now by faith approach to Thee
Shall all with open face behold
In Christ the glorious Deity;
Shall see, and put the Godhead on,
The nature of Thy sinless Son.
I cannot see Thy face, and live,
Then let me see Thy face, and die!


That's worship

O God let this love burn in our hearts and make it light our darkness and may it kindle our spirits to worship YOU in total forgetfulness of everything except YOU.Let our souls be still and adore Thee the GREAT I AM.


_________________
Redi

 2007/6/12 20:09Profile





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