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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California


It is interesting that you bring up what Calvin did in Geneva. Two main points that we must look at in the history of that city are that until the Church became central in the society there, women had few rights if any, and the poor were uncared for. This changed as the Christians of Geneva believing that a sovereign God had placed them there to impact their society began to really practice what they were being taught by men like John Calvin.

Men like John Knox, and other Reformers were forced to flee to Geneva because of the anti Protestant government in England and Scotland thus many godly men and women were drawn to Geneva as a safe haven. The result of this was the Geneva Bible, and also John Knox became grounded in the theological beliefs that would shake Scotland not long after his return.

Calvin and the Reformed Church of Geneva were one of the first to send out missionaries. Two men were sent to Brazil ultimatley dying there prior to an agreement between the Portugese government and the Roman catholic Church to "christianize" Brazil. One must understand that in these times it was near impossible to get ships for missionaries as the countries that had ships were Roman Catholic, and would not approve of Protestant missionaries.

As for the death of Michael Servetus, Calvin had very little to do with his death. People falsely assume that Calvin killed him, but the Genevan magistrates were the ones who issued the sentence. The Roman Catholic Church had already issued a decree for his death as a heretic as well.

Perhaps if you are interested, you could read this chapter of a wonderful book called, "Puritan Reformed Spirituality"

[url=]Calvin Teacher of Envangelism[/url]

Or even this aricle on Calvin's view of piety

[url=]Calvin On Piety[/url]

Also, I do not believe what I believe because John Calvin says it is true. I do not even wish to be labeled a "Calvinist". I am a Christian who belives the Biblical view of man, of salvation, and of God. If these things make me a Calvinist, then I suppose I am, but first and foremost, I am a Christian.

One last point. Calvin was not the only voice of the Protestants at this time. Luther was around, Zwingli was also active, as was William Tyndale etc. Amazingly, though they differed on the issues of sacraments, they all agreed to the depravity of man, and the sovereignty of God in salvation.

I do not expect you to, but lovingly ask that you give a listen to at least a couple of these messages, thus you could make a more educated argument. I used to believe all the things I heard about "wicked" John Calvin, and the Calvinists until I took time to investigate their views with my Bible in tow.

[url=]History And Theology Of Calvinism[/url]

If you cannot listen to these, here is the printed form of the notes

[url=]History And Theology Of Calvinism PDF[/url]

Every blessing to you in our wondrous and sovereign Lord :-D

patrick heaviside

 2007/6/9 12:53Profile


Roaringlamb said:

**I do not expect you to, but lovingly ask that you give a listen to at least a couple of these messages, thus you could make a more educated argument.**

Roaringlamb, these are the kind of comments that I thoroughly expected. I know you probably meant well by saying that, but to say one cannot make a more educated argument without first being brainwashed and or persuaded that people's behavior can deviate from scripture because of the times and activities in which people live in history.

What you are really saying is, Jesus is *not* the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. It all depends on what is going on around us at the moment.

THe same dominion Theology that was present in his day is present in our day. Now a Reformer Wycliff of England 200 or more years before John Calvin had a different idea about the separation of Church and State, namely that God placed King over people, not Popes. So the issue with Calvin goes much deeper than what many people see on the surface. In our Country, many people believe the Puritans, (Calvinists), have established a country where we *should be* another Church of England, or a Theocracy here. But in reality, there was only ONE Theocracy and that was Israel. There will not be another Theocracy again until Jesus Christ reigns and rules for 1000 years. Calvinism is more than teaching doctrines of OSAS. The real dilly is even though they believe themselves to be God's Elect, they want to take their election and FORCE the "unelect" back under the law of Moses. How can this be? You see, Jesus didn't die on a cross to save Nations, but individuals, one soul at a time. There is no such thing as The Gospel of America, the Church of America, or that America inherited all the Promises to Israel. There is no OT prophesy about a Gentile Nation receiving all the Promises given to Israel.

Yes, I've done my homework. And there is more to Calvinism than your average Christian knows or even questions.

But you still with all you said, never answered my question, did Calvin understand and teach the Crucified Life? I can find it nowhere in any of his teachings or writings. That is the heart of the Gospel...that is the heart of the Gospel that never actually changed the heart of Calvin.

Love in Christ
KAty-did 8-)

 2007/6/9 15:56

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California


Yes Calvin taught that apart from union with Christ, one could not live as God has commanded. The article I posted on Calvin and piety talks about this.

Now as for the other apsect of the political views of the Puritans and other Reformed folks, their view of man was what led them to believe that unsaved men should not dictate laws, or preside over governments. They believed that God's sovereignty did not stop at the Curch doors, but spread into all of the believers life. The aim was to get out from under the RomanCatholic rule, and thus they were very politically motivated in some periods of time. Unfortunately due to the rise of Arminianism, and Humanism, we no longer see the concern for the state of unregenerate men in office, and lend some credibility to what unsaved men have to say about issues of faith, just look at how the primaries are panning out.

If someone were to put me in a corner about my beliefs, I would have to say I am more like the Anabaptists, and the London Baptist Confession of 1647, as I see a need to separate Chruch and State, that is until we had genuine Christians in office ;-)

There are many many issues that go into where we are today, many are painful to deal with like the involvement of the Roman Catholic Church and the Council of Trent. This alone has undermined so much of what was accomplished in the Reformation, as was its purpose, but Protestants today have no idea what it says, or why it was written, or that in Vatican 2 it was still upheld.

I apologize for any offense, I meant none whatsoever.

patrick heaviside

 2007/6/9 16:47Profile


Roaringlamb, I know you didn't mean any offence. One thing that also concerns me is the "Home to Rome" taking place by many Calvinists. It's been an eye-opening year of observation. I do believe this is another reason to make your calling and election sure. I think the comment was made by Forrest that certain doctrines should not be taught to a New Born Christian. I have to agree. I know the Lord will establish and settle us in our faith, as it should be.

Jesus promised to the "Overcomers" to reign and rule with Him. We overcome the world, Satan, false doctrine, the flesh, (not the House of Representatives) ...and Through Christ we are more than conquers. We have to learn this through experience, not classroom.

Don't become so attached to someone's doctrine that you miss a blessing. Many I once loved when I was a child in my understanding, I no longer feel the same way. When one can start cutting and eating their own "meat", and not continue to eat what someone else 400 or more years ago cut up and wants to keep you fed with, may have lost over the years much of it's nutritional value. There is so much MORE light since Calvin. The only thing I see with Calvinism is history repeating itself. The Puritans were run out of England because of their interference in government, crying all the while…persecution ,persecution! Aren’t we doing the same thing? This is not persecution the Bible speaks of. This is self inflicted self-righteousness that is drawing people away from the Cross, and replacing the Cross with the Flag.

Our constitution was separation of Church and state to avoid any interference of what happened not only with Catholicism, but the interference of the Puritans in the affairs of England. We are governed by our conscience, not any one denomination. And your comment----"until we have genuine Christians in office", and who, prey tell will be the judge of that?

Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

 2007/6/9 17:30

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710


What does matter is, does scripture teach the crucified life? The meaning of this doctrine specifically, That is the death on the Cross with Christ and the birthing of the Seed of the Father in the Believer, that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

I am not a Once Saved Always Saved advocate either, but I do believe in the Eternal Security of The Christ that is birthed in me and the keeping by Christ of those that The Father gives Him. I don't see a child jumping out of the mother's womb on his own, why would he want to? Think about suicide, these are in dispair in even thinking about it. We are Christs' and Christ is ours, why would anyone want to jump out of His hands? Even unto death Christ did not jump out of God's hands for us and He is still doing the same for us in our salvation. If you think that God will ever let you go, I feel sorry for those that believe they can loose their salvation, there is certainly no peace or Rest in that theology.

Hbr 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Hbr 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

Hbr 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

He will never leave us and like Him our souls and bodies will not suffer corruption in the grave, for the quickening of Christ's resurrection is still there and also in us.

Psa 119:50 This [is] my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.

Psa 119:93 I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.

1Cr 15:36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

You are quickened in Christ, not Calvin or OSAS, but only in Christ.

Saved: Hbr 13:5 [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Not Saved: Eze 26:21 I will make thee a terror, and thou [shalt be] no [more]: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord GOD.

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

No jumping out of salvation here, Only God and His complete sovereignty's.

In Christ, eternally secure: Phillip


 2007/6/9 17:37Profile

Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 119
Iowa, USA


Dear Friends & Brothers & Sisters,

Greetings in Jesus' name!

Leonard Ravenhill said once that "One of these days some simple fellow will read the word of God and believe it, then all the rest of us will stand amazed at what God does with that man" (Or something to that effect)

It is appearant that many doctrines, including Hyper-Calvinism, and Strict Armineanism, are based largely off of "proof" texts.

When we read our Bibles, do we read them for doctrine's sake, or for Food, Life, Light, and the Glory of God? Yes, all scripture is given... etc...

But let's get down to it-- We often skim over much of the context, and sometimes even "brush" off verses that are clearly in God's Word.

i myself would be considered more of an Arminean when it comes to eternal security, and pre-destination. But i do not brush aside the verses that talk about being predestinated (As in Ephesians for ex.) and so on. But the thing that puts the quandery into my mind so often, is that we as Christians use the Bible in wrong ways, as in JUST for doctrine, JUST for reprove, or JUST for so on and so forth... i don't know that anybody is doing that here, but let's examine ourselves and our motives before God.

The reason for posting the quote by Ravenhill is that when it comes to Docrtine, we should mingle it with the practical workings of faith when we make a dogmatic statement about a belief or somthing like that.

For example let's take Hyper-Calvinism. (PREFACE: this is simply my understanding of a Hyper Calvinist- if you consider yourself one, and this does not descibe your belief, please forgive me, as there are many different definitions out there and i'm just going off of my understading of the definition i have :). And when i say "Hyper" i mean extreme...) A Hyper-Calvinist would say that since people are already predestined to either heaven or hell, there is no reason to preach the Gospel to all the nations, because they will get there one way or another.

Now, examine what we heard there, and look at scripture. On a strictly doctrinal scense, he could be right, because of what we see in the verses about predestination. But if you look at the "practical" scriptures, Christ said "Go ye into all the world..." GO, why? Another: "How shall they believe on Him whome they have not heard..." etc.

So with our example (and that is all it is, it is not all-inclusive, so pray about the less-extreme doctrines we may hold and put them to the same test) we see that Doctrinal scriptures cannot just be balanced with doctrinal scriptures, but also "practical" ones... if you get what i mean.

God bless you all as you seek out this issue-- May God give us wisdom to rightly divide the Word of Truth...

In Christ,

PS- i do believe in eternal security- you walk with God, you're secure- if you turn your back away from God and cintinue in sin, you're not... just figured i'd clarify that. Thanks! 8-)


 2007/6/9 18:22Profile


Nathan, Thank you so much for these words of wisdom. I've been thinking about what you said all week-end and what you've done has set me free from I guess, an anger I've felt, but could never put my finger on.
You see, After I got saved, or I will say "really saved", I had more then a proof text relationship with the Lord, I've had an actual personal relationship. But when trying to share this relationship all I got back was, "Oh, you need to read this or that, as though that relationship were secondary or as one person said "fanciful thinking". But now I realize I'm not angry anymore, but only sad for those who only have the "proof text" and not the Person or the personal relationship that PROVES the TEXT. Even Truth can become nothing more than RELIGION if all one has is proof text without the proof.

Anyway, God Bless you all!
Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

 2007/6/11 9:00

Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved???

After all this wonderful discussion and display of scripture, I would like to get back to one particular point.

If we are Elect, we will not know it until our salvation is assured, either through a walk so holy and divinely inspired, so full of fruit of the Spirit that one simply knows that Christ is in him, and he is in Christ, or when we are with Christ, and past the travail of this life.

For it is travail, and we all of us, no matter our view on the extent of Pre-Destination, are working to walk out our walk in faith, and show ourselves approved of God.

Did we start there? Did we know how long and how hard a walk it would be, even knowing that Christ was living inside us?

Please, look again at the explanation of the Parable of the Sower, as laid out by the One who knew.

[color=993300]Matthew 13:18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.[/color]

This seed is dead before it hits the hearer, for the devil makes sure that it is never really heard.

[color=993300] 20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.[/color]

This seed begins rightly, but cannot get past the hard parts of the Christian life.

[color=993300] 22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.[/color]

This seed begins rightly as well, but the cares of this world and the lies of the Evil One overrun it.

[color=993300] 23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.[/color]

Ah yes, the Elect. But did they start that way?

I didn't.

When I look back at my life, I seem to have passed through all four sowings.

For those of you that don't know me, I was brought up in a household without faith, and without observance, and with an extreme distrust of God and the Church - RCC Mom & Protestant Dad.

The first sowing was snatched away by the devil...he used a Sunday School Teacher to indoctrinate me with the idea that perfection was needed to get into heaven. I came away without any knowledge of God except a memory of a blackboard covered in colored chalk representing a child's eye view of Hell, and a tendency towards perfectionism.

Fortunately, no one told me OSAS. I wouldn't have believed them.

My second sowing brought about a baptism, but the devil used a tongue-talkin' church to scare me into believing that they, the church, were evil, for in my 15 year old simplicity, I understood I wanted Jesus, but the tongue-talkin' church forgot to tell me about tongue-talkin', or that I was supposed to come out of the baptismal pool speaking in tongues.

No one told me OSAS. I woudn't have wanted to hear it. All I wanted was to get away from that church as fast as I could.

I got finely tricked by the devil, and went into the Occult. I became an expert at divination, with Tarot Cards, and Palm Reading. And I was good enough to scare people, and make money at it.

I got mad once at someone making fun of my abilities, got a deck of cards, and sorted them, red and black. The odds on doing that are about 30 million to one. I had a friendly demon helping me out. And yes, I scared the people who made fun of me. They shut up, and my boyfriend kept on bragging on my abilities! Gee, what nice friends I had. Thank God I didn't know about OSAS!

I slid into promiscuity like I was coming home.

And my parents were fine with all of this, so long as I got a good education, kept a good reputation to protect the family, and was a success!

So I did that too. The love of money...oh, isn't it so nice to have, and all that?

But you know, the baptism held. I had meant what I said, and Jesus was walking around with me, stuffing in a little unorthodox word here and there along with the classics, and psychology, and I got the real comparative religion along with fairly balanced history and literature because I started college in 1972. The hippies weren't professors and politicians yet.

They are now, and you can't get anything good taught you except at home, that is, if your parents care, and then can send you to a good Christian University.

And when I was 23, I met a guy named Dr. Gene Scott, of recent memory. Yeah, a weird guy, but a very sound scholar. Since he died last year, everyone is using his stuff. Hearing him teach on Romans gave me an education beyond price. His three different sermons on Psalm 84 are a blessing to watch, even if I do have to watch him change ages.

I skipped his playful UFO/British Israelite/Pyramids/Occult/Weird Religions stuff because I already knew as much as he did about that stuff, and maybe more. I didn't care that he said 'damn' and 'hell' since he never blasphemed, not that I would have known or cared! And since I smoked, and drank, I didn't object to him doing so.

Oh, and he taught Pre-Destination and the Perseverance of the Saints at the same time. No, not Calvinism and Armenianism. Just Pre-Destination and Perseverance...hand in hand, until death. Doc Scott taught faith, but he also taught tithing, and about the fruit of the spirit we must show, or be fakers. And he never once said anything about OSAS.

Life engulfed me, and the Word slipped away, and I was caught in the world. But I had God, even if I didn't like His Son's Name, and more scholarship than I knew what to do with. So, in between making money, and partying, I studied some more. And from time to time, I'd be back watching Doc Scott on the satellite because when he talked about God, I understood him. And I drank in years of his teaching, reading his booklist, and studying to see if what he said was really in the Bible. And I learned, right down to the little Greek and Hebrew Squigglies.

I'd been in a Sorority - I knew the Greek Alphabet. I studied Classics - got a bit more there. Hebrew...well, I at least know what a Yod is.

I always did have a scholarly nature. You should have seen my Occult library! And my Antique Tarot Cards! And if I'd really been into spell casting and demonology, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. But I knew enough about what I was doing to be scared of that. And that means I was in very deep.

And somewhere along the way I got real tired of the life I was living. And even though I was studying Zen on the side, I talked occasionally to God.

I got married and I was happy. Worldly, but happy. I stopped giving Tarot readings...not enough time. Oh, and I still managed to catch a fair amount of Doc Scott. I didn't bother sleeping. He was more interesting. And the more stressed out I got, the more I asked God for peace of mind and comfort of spirit, since I actually knew what that meant. Oh, and I finally asked it in Jesus' name too.

Uh oh, that car crash! Bye Bye career, and self, and husband, and sanity, and the ability to move without pain, or live without heavy duty meds. And I even have a high pain threshold!

Hello Peggy Thelan, a psychologist who happened to be a good Christian.

I got my 4th and final sowing along with the counseling to cope with the devastation of my life, the brain damage and the neurological damage you get from breaking your neck in a ditch.

But you know, she didn't tell me OSAS either, so when I collapsed after my husband left me, and hit bottom, hating what I had become, and all that I had lost, I reached out for Jesus. And I hated calling Him that, but eventually got used to all the Christianese. I never went to a church, so I never heard OSAS either.

And I finally fell in love. I was 42. I'm at the obsession point now, 10 years later. I've actually asked Him to use me however He would...that was wierd. He replied.

I don't mind being broken all that much, either, since I know if I was entirely fixed I'd be back out in that world, soaking in success, and sinning away. Because I don't know how to live in the world any other way.

And I'm covered in Christians, because my ministry is to the fallen away relations of church goers. So I meet them everywhere. I have fellowship everywhere, and pass out a few cards. And God's little website that I run for Him...people keep finding it, and more of them show up each week. They're actually starting to send some of what I write to others!

I don't set foot in a church except for Weddings and Funerals. I'm a woman, and I'm not allowed to rebuke the outrageous Pastors that are out there.

I have church wherever I go, because, being disabled, God puts the people He wants me to see in my way.

Well, that's all very nice for me.

But my dad's only been saved a year, and won't even open a Bible yet. It's fun watching the Holy Spirit teach him, because I'm not allowed to. I'm his daughter, even though I am an evangelist and teacher.

So, knowing that OSAS would have been deadly for me to hear, do you think I should tell my Dad?

I know that Election is only sure when you are dead, for I get attacked a lot by the devil, and it would be very easy to turn around in the path. Sin is very attractive when you've been away from it for a long time, and forget how deadly dull it is after a while.

No, I don't want to hurt Jesus, and I enjoy living in peace, and yes, I believe in Hell, and if it's hard for me, how much harder is it for a fresh caught fish in the hands of the modern Christian Church?

So, how many of you want me to start telling people OSAS?

When would it have been good for me to hear it?

I don't dare believe it now, much as I'd like to. Because I'm really good at sinning. Lucifer cried when I rededicated my life to Jesus.

So, if it's not safe for a reasonably well taught, walking the walk Christian to know, why are we telling anyone about it?

I know that grace is there for the sins of my bodily nature. But what about the deliberate ones I really would like to commit, because they're fun, or useful, or might be if I got mad, and had one of my guns handy around a politician...or a reporter!

Uh, Uh! No way! I know I have to watch my walk every day, and so do all of you, and those that say otherwise are lying to themselves.

Yes, I know that God knows who is saved, and will make it to the end in Christ, but none of us know that. From what I see, I'm probably there, but I don't know, not for sure, not enough to bet my salvation on it. What if I fail at the last moment during persecution? After all, it's coming soon to a city near you, and I'm not quiet about being a Christian.

I don't mind jail. I expect it will come to that even in America before I die or am raptured. And death? No problem, I'd love to go Home now, but I wander how well I'd face getting there the hard way?

So, any of you want to bet your salvation on OSAS?

Or teach someone else to?

In Christ,


P.S. And for those that care, I got rid of the Antique Tarot Cards and the Occult Library when I asked the Holy Spirit for the gift of tongues. I don't use it much...only when I'm prompted to, but the gift is there, along with others that God uses from time to time.

Forrest Anderson

 2007/6/12 9:12Profile


Forrest, You said *If we are Elect, we will not know it until our salvation is assured, either through a walk so holy and divinely inspired, so full of fruit of the Spirit that one simply knows that Christ is in him, and he is in Christ, or when we are with Christ, and past the travail of this life.*

Forrest, we do not earn salvation, it is a gift. We are sanctified once and for all. Hebrews 10. 1st John also says, "that you may know you have eternal life". 1st John also says, you *KNOW* you have passed from death to life when you love the Brethren. Here again is the heart of the Gospel, **passing from death to life.

Remember, the man who died next to Jesus, was saved, once and for all when Jesus said, TODAY you will be with me in Paradise. He didn't have time to bare anything but a humble heart confessing himself a sinner.

To be *quickened* with the risen Christ is not a process, but instantaneously. Those who are have the evidence of Jesus Christ working in and through them. We are instantly positioned as Saints, now we grow up into Christ....*He who has begin a good work will continue it until the day of Jesus Christ*.

There is nothing you can do to stop it. God scourges EVERY SON who belongs to Him for the purpose of being partaker of His Holiness. And by faith we are partakers of His divine nature.

You can't earn a *Gift*.
We are saved by Grace through faith, it is a Gift from God...not of works lest any man should boast.

To God be the Glory for ALL the things HE HAS DONE.

Do you have the *EVIDENCE* of this Grace working in you? Jesus prayed to the Father in John 17, Sanctify them through thy TRUTH, thy WORD is Truth.

People have put a wrong understanding on the word ELECT, and with that wrong understanding a strange twist that if you measure up to certain standards, maybe just maybe you will be that lucky person who finds our in the end they are the elect.

The Bible DOES NOT teach this at all!

Love in Christ


 2007/6/12 10:41

Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved???


I am not talking about what Jesus does for us.

We don't have anything without Him.

But to receive salvation, we must believe in Him.

The Election that men speak of is not handed out with the seed that is sown, but when it is received. And the Election that is given out is not necessarily to each one who says they believe.

Please, read the whole post, and do not fasten on any one part of it.

This is not a standard scriptural defense of opinion, but a complete statement in commentary for the specific purpose of the end concusion.

Please, think of this as only as an undefended thesis, and answer to the whole, or I will have wasted hours writing my post.

I am not debating Election, nor do I mean to seem to. I am talking about perception by the one who is initially saved, not their status in God's eyes.



Forrest Anderson

 2007/6/12 10:59Profile

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