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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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simplelife
Member



Joined: 2006/12/10
Posts: 2


 Re:

Quote:

UniqueWebRev wrote:
Quote:

UniqueWebRev wrote:
Quote:
Is everyone in agreement then, that all those living (and above the age of accountability) who are in an active relationship with Christ, known as 'saved', must maintain a continous walk forward in that relationship in faith, or lose that salvation?



I believe this is well stated.
I find that our doctrines are firm as anything, until they are tested.

The tests come with the pressures of life and the enemy's deceptions attacking at our minds and hearts, as well as our loved ones.

Until I saw people I loved becoming harder and harder towards the Lord and "the fear of the Lord", I was a OSAS person. I could share the verses that showed that doctrine.

When I watched the hardening and deceptive process first hand, some in myself (though, praise His name I have been delivered) and in others I deeply love, I knew, people CAN fall away.

I know we are not to base our convictions on experience, but on the authority of the Word of God. Yet I believe the Lord does show us, time and time again, through actual experiences, that His Word is true and the consequences of violating His commands are REAL.

As we debate probabilities or wonderments, many of those who call themselves brethren are promoting homosexual practice and "monogamy" in the church. Others are committing adultery of the remarriage type or pornography type. Others are believing they are God's when they never truly repented since they were "pretty good people".

I have had to come to the understanding that you can fall into deception. You can become influenced by deceiving spirits. You can take yourself into darkness and really believe you are right!!

I am sorry I am not posting Scripture, but I have read enough to know that these ideas are taught by Paul, Peter, James and John. And especially Jesus.

He seemed to teach fruit and motives. He seemed to "measure faith by someone's obedience" I know some will shrink back at that, but He did say, "If you love Me, you will obey My commands".

I used to experience the cosy belief that you could never lose your inheritance, until I read,

1 Cor 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders.

So if one who is a believer, even a leader in the church, is practicing these things, and has been considered "born again" due to asking the Lord into their soul at an earlier time, we would say, they will continue to inherit, though this verse would teach otherwise?





Mahoney wrote:
Forrest,

I absolutely disagree! I disagree because your statement is entirely too subjective...what does "continuous walk forward" mean? What does that look like?



I will re-quote myself with emphasis on the particular words that you all might see that what I said was not subjective at all, but under a specific condition.

[color=0000ff]Is everyone in agreement then, that [b][u]all those living[/b][/u] (and above the age of accountability) [b][u]who are in an active relationship with Christ[/b][/u], known as 'saved', [b][u]must maintain a continous walk forward in that relationship in faith[/b][/u], or lose that salvation?[/color]

Is not faith enjoined on us as a continuous condition of salvation, the breach of which, is unbelief, and therefore, non-relationship with Christ?

Blessings,

Forrest

 2007/6/7 22:01Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Works without faith are dead, and that faith must be the faith of the Son of God to be works treasured up in heaven.

Galatians 2:16-17 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Born of God. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

In Him, Praise God we cannot sin for Christ is not the minister of sin.

The flesh can still sin, but we have an Advocate with the Father, "If we confess our sin, God is faithful and just to forgive our sin and cleans us from all unrighteousness."

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 1:7-9 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/6/8 2:13Profile
elected
Member



Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK

 Re:

Hi Katy-did and GrannieAnnie,

I wholehearted agree with what both of you are saying, you see we may have deffrent views but essentially we are of like minded when it comes to who is really an authentic christian and how to be sure of salvation.

I dont wanna preoccupy myself much with theological issues as i used to do before because i think it's more important to obey the Bible and according to the light and revelation that the Holy Spirit reveals to us through the studing of scriptures let us zealously follow the Lord.
If something is wrong in mmy convictions and opinions may the Lord enlight my mind that i may beter understand the doctrines of scriptures and the whole counsel of God.But the emphasis shouldnt be as much theological (and i'm talking here about born again christian who agree in the essentials of christian faith) as it should be practical.

There are many things that i dont understand with my intellect in the Bible but i wholehearted believe them.

Now i'm not a calvinist but i believe in election, why? because the bible says it and that's enough for me. I dont wanna explain it away i just take it by faith that he loved us first before we ever thought about it or even before our fragile existance.

Why he chose me, ohh, can i really explain that bro & sis, honestly not, He is Sovreign, He is the Potter and i'm the clay, He first loved & chose us. Now God when he predestined us according to His forknowledge it was not because of any merits of our own, oh NO it was because of his tender mercies and amazing GRACE but does this mean that God disregarded are personal choices,no no.

That's a mystery unexplainable for me He chose us before the foundation of the whole world to be vessels of mercy & honor and yet in time when we heard the gosple invitation we made our own choice in accepting his free gift of salvation and believing Jesus as Lord and Saviour. He the God of love dint forced us to believe.

The moment somebody tries to explain election in a logical way, he is trying to understand by limited intellect the mind of an INFINITE GOD.It's better to lieve room for some amazement and awe and wonder to the misteries of predestination.

Do i have to be a calvinist to believe in predestination, no, do i have to be an arminian to believe in man's responsability and free choice, no. My conscience at last has found peace on this matter, i just believe my Bible and dont take for granted my salvation as if to mean just an experiece of the past and then whatever i do at least someday i'll get to heaven,absolutly not.

Jesus is my salvation and i want to be in Him and live for Him, outside him i'm lost and miserable and know he is able and powerful to keep me in his kingdom of righteousness,love,joy and peace and preserve my soul from destruction and ruin. My ROCK on whom i am buildin my house so that when storms come i'll be rooted deep in Him and his love and stand and persevere to the end.

The bible warns us christians so many times about the dangers of continually living in sin and disobeying God. I fear God and i 'fear' to sin, i know that salvation is by free grace alone but on the same time i know that the devil is smart and cunning and wants to fool us about false assurance and make us think it's ok when it isnt.

Faith is a journey with God, we have to press forward to heaven and not backward to the city of distruction.We dont gain salvation by every bit of good word we do but if we truly are elected then let us make our election sure by obeying God's word and not just talk and emphasis so much faith as to neglect the obedience that God demands from His sons and daughters.Let us work out our salvation by fear and trembling.

Run the race!! and press forward to perfection and let us aim to be complete in Him and wholy sanctified spirit, soul, and body. And shine, shine, shine for Jesus that people may see the LIGHT of God in us & through us and come to salvation to the praise and the glory of God.


_________________
Redi

 2007/6/8 4:54Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved???

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Works without faith are dead, and that faith must be the faith of the Son of God to be works treasured up in heaven.

[color=993300]Galatians 2:16-17 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.[/color]

Born of God. [color=993300]1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.[/color]

In Him, Praise God we cannot sin for Christ is not the minister of sin.

The flesh can still sin, but we have an Advocate with the Father, [color=993300]"If we confess our sin, God is faithful and just to forgive our sin and cleans us from all unrighteousness."

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 1:7-9 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.[/color]

In Christ: Phillip




Philip,

Once Saved, Always Saved is to me a matter of poor doctrinal teaching, not because Christ cannot and will not hang on to us, but that we can, and are able to turn away from Christ.

For it is not Jesus's faith that saves us, but His action in dying on the cross for us, and our faith - our continuing faith in Him.

All along I have wanted people not to be hung up on this tag, 'Once Saved, Always Saved' that is so comforting to those that sin their way into hell, despite how long they walked with Jesus once.

And now, interestingly, you bring up faith.

Once, a while back I recalled we were discussing faith, and I looked around in the archives to see what I had said, and what you had said in regard to saving faith.

I said:

Quote:
My question would lean more to whether, since Jesus lives in me, does not His Faith, as in Godlike Faith, also live in me?

And if so, will not His Faith trump my poor faith as I lay gasping on the narrow path?
Quote:



And you answered as followed:


Compliments wrote:

Quote:
This is Christwards and Sonlike faith, but it is not, I think, Christ’ faith instead of Paul’s faith.

I am having difficulty receiving that it's not "Christs' faith" that Paul is now living by.

It is without doubt that Paul reached perfection, and Jesus is the author and the finisher of our faith.

There is an end to our faith, to which it carries us thru the trials and temptations to where Christ is fully grown up inside of us. The SEED was not meant to sit in our lives and not grow, that SEED is Christ.
Quote:
[color=993300]1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.[/color]

He that endures to the end the same shall be saved, that end is your faith, not the end of the world, as our carnal minds think.

When Christ has become grown in us, then comes to past which was spoken of in Habakkuk:
Quote:
[color=993300]Habakkuk 2:4..... the just shall live by his faith.

It's no longer I that liveth.

[/color]


Phillip, are you saying now that we cannot turn away from Jesus under any circustance? Or that one can fall away, repent, and be forgiven, so long as we have not strayed too far?

Or will you fall back on that tired response again that one cannot possibly haved been saved if you fall away, when there are instructions in the Bible on how NOT to fall away?

Oddly, my purpose in starting this thread was to try and pound it into some thick heads that bad, deceptive teaching of the OSAS doctrine can lead people to stray if they are not taught at the same time, Once Faithing, Always Faithing.

[color=993300]"[b]Believe[/b] on the Lord your God"[/color]

[color=0000FF]Strong's Ref. # 4100

Romanized pisteuo
Pronounced pist-yoo'-o

from GSN4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):

KJV--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.



Topics: Faith
ELWELLS THEOLOGICAL DICTIONARY

Text: Noun corresponding to the verb "believe," for which the Hebrew is heemin, the hiphil form of aman, and the Greek (LXX and NT) pisteuo. The latter is a key word in the NT, being the term regularly used to denote the many-sided religious relationship into which the gospel calls men and women, that of trust in God through Christ. The complexity of this idea is reflected in the variety of constructions used with the verb (a hoti clause, or accusative and infinitive, expressing truth believed; en and epi with the dative, denoting restful reliance on that to which, or him to whom, credit is given; eis and, occasionally, epi with the accusative, the most common, characteristic, and original NT usage, scarcely present in the LXX and not at all in classical Greek, conveying the thought of a movement of trust going out to, and laying hold of, the object of its confidence). The Hebrew noun corresponding to aman (emuna, rendered pistis in the LXX), regularly denotes faithfulness in the sense of trustworthiness,
and pistis occasionally bears this sense in the NT (Rom. 3:3, of God; Matt. 23:23; Gal. 5:22; Titus 2:10, of man). The word emuna normally refers to the faithfulness of God, and only in Hab. 2:4 is it used to signify man's religious response to God. There, however, the contrast in the context between the temper of the righteous and the proud self-sufficiency of the Chaldeans seems to demand for it a broader sense than "faithfulness" alone, the sense, namely, of self-renouncing, trustful reliance upon God, the attitude of heart of which faithfulness in life is the natural expression. This is certainly the sense in which the apostolic writers quote the text (Rom. 1:17; Gal. 3:11; Heb. 10:38), and the sense which pistis, like pisteuo, regularly carries in the NT, where both words are used virtually as technical terms (John preferring the verb, Paul the noun) to express the complex thought of unqualified acceptance of, and exclusive dependence on,
the mediation of the Son as alone securing the mercy of the Father. Both normally bear this whole weight of meaning, whether their grammatical object is God, Christ, the gospel, a truth, a promise, or is not expressed at all. Both signify commitment as following from conviction, even in contexts where faith is defined in terms of the latter only (e.g., compare Heb. 11:1 with the rest of the chapter). The nature of faith, according to the NT, is to live by the truth it receives; faith, resting on God's promise, gives thanks for God's grace by working for God's glory.

Some occasional contractions of this broad idea should be noticed:

(1) James, alone of NT writers, uses both noun and verb to denote bare intellectual assent to truth (James 2:14-26). But here he is explicitly mimicking the usage of those whom he seeks to correct, Jewish converts, who may well have inherited their notion of faith from contemporary Jewish sources, and there is no reason to suppose that this usage was normal or natural to him (his reference to faith in 5:15, e.g., clearly carries a fuller meaning). In any case the point he makes, namely, that a merely intellectual "faith," such as the demons have, is inadequate, is wholly in line with the rest of the NT. For example, when James says, "Faith without works is dead" (2:26), he is saying the same as Paul, who says in essence, "Faith without works is not faith at all, but its opposite" (cf. Gal. 5:6; 1 Tim. 5:8).

(2) Occasionally, by a natural transition, "the faith" denotes the body of truths believed (e.g., Jude 3; Rom. 1:5[?]; Gal. 1:23; 1 Tim. 4:1, 6). This became standard usage in the second century.

(3) From Christ himself derives a narrower use of "faith" for an exercise of trust which works miracles (Matt. 17:20-21; 1 Cor. 12:9; 13:2), or prompts the workings of miracles (Matt. 9: 28-29; 15:28; Acts 14:9). Saving faith is not always accompanied by "miracle-faith," however (1 Cor. 12:9); nor vice versa (cf. Matt. 7:22-23).

General Conception. Three points must be noted for the circumscribing of the biblical idea of faith:

Faith in God Involves Right Belief about God. The word "faith" in ordinary speech covers both credence of propositions ("beliefs") and confidence in persons or things. In the latter case some belief about the object trusted is the logical and psychological presupposition of the act of trust itself, for trust in a thing reflects a positive expectation about its behavior, and rational expectation is impossible if the thing's capacities for behavior are wholly unknown. Throughout the Bible trust in God is made to rest on belief of what he has revealed concerning his character and purposes. In the NT, where faith in God is defined as trust in Christ, the acknowledgment of Jesus as the expected Messiah and the incarnate Son of God is regarded as basic to it. The writers allow that faith in some form can exist where as yet information about Jesus is incomplete (Acts 19:1ff.),
but not where his divine identity and Christhood are consciously denied (1 John 2:22-23; II John 7-9); all that is possible then is idolatry (1 John 5:21), the worship of a manmade unreality. The frequency with which the epistles depict faith as knowing, believing, and obeying "the truth" (Titus 1:1; II Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:22, etc.) show that their authors regarded orthodoxy as faith's fundamental ingredient (cf. Gal. 1:8-9).

Faith Rests on Divine Testimony. Beliefs, as such, are convictions held on grounds, not of self-evidence, but of testimony. Whether particular beliefs should be treated as known certainties or doubtful opinions will depend on the worth of the testimony on which they are based. The Bible views faith's convictions as certainties and equates them with knowledge (1 John 3:2; 5:18-20, etc.), not because they spring from supposedly self-authenticating mystical experience, but because they rest on the testimony of a God who "cannot lie" (Titus 1:2) and is therefore utterly trustworthy. The testimony of Christ to heavenly things (John 3:11, 31-32), and of the prophets and apostles to Christ (Acts 10:39-43), is the testimony of God himself (1 John 5:9ff.); this God-inspired witness is God's own witness (cf. 1 Cor. 2:10-13; 1 Thess. 2:13), in such a sense that to receive it is to certify that God is true (John 3:33), and to reject it is to make God a liar (1 John 5:10).
Christian faith rests on the recognition of apostolic and biblical testimony as God's own testimony to his Son.

Faith Is a Supernatural Divine Gift. Sin and Satan have so blinded fallen men (Eph. 4:18; II Cor. 4:4) that they cannot discern dominical and apostolic witness to be God's word, nor "see" and comprehend the realities of which it speaks (John 3:3; 1 Cor. 2:14), nor "come" in selfrenouncing trust to Christ (John 6:44, 65), till the Holy Spirit has enlightened them (cf. II Cor. 4:6). Only the recipients of this divine "teaching," "drawing," and "anointing" come to Christ and abide in him (John 6:44-45; 1 John 2:20, 27). God is thus the author of all saving faith (Eph. 2:8; Phil. 1:29).

Biblical Presentation. Throughout Scripture, God's people live by faith; but the idea of faith develops as God's revelation of grace and truth, on which faith rests, enlarges. The OT variously defines faith as resting, trusting, and hoping in the Lord, cleaving to him, waiting for him, making him our shield and tower, taking refuge in him, etc. Psalmists and prophets, speaking in individual and national terms respectively, present faith as unwavering trust in God to save his servants from their foes and fulfill his declared purpose of blessing them. Isaiah, particularly, denounces reliance on human aid as inconsistent with such trust (Isa. 30:1-18, etc.). The NT regards the self-despairing hope, world-renouncing obedience, and heroic tenacity by which OT believers manifested their faith as a pattern which Christians must reproduce (Rom. 4:11-25; Heb. 10:39-12:2). Continuity is avowed here, but also novelty; for faith, receiving God's new utterance in the words and deeds of Christ (Heb. 1:1-2),
has become a knowledge of present salvation. Faith, so regarded, says Paul, first "came" with Christ (Gal. 3:23-25). The Gospels show Christ demanding trust in himself as bearing the messianic salvation. John is fullest on this, emphasizing (1) that faith ("believing on," "coming to," and "receiving" Christ) involves acknowledging Jesus, not merely as a God-sent teacher and miracle worker (this is insufficient, John 2:23-24), but as God incarnate (John 20:28), whose atoning death is the sole means of salvation (John 3:14-15; 6:51-58); (2) that faith in Christ secures present enjoyment of "eternal life" in fellowship with God (John 5:24; 17:3). The epistles echo this, and present faith in various further relationships. Paul shows that faith in Christ is the only way to a right relationship with God, which human works cannot gain (see Romans and Galatians); Hebrews and 1 Peter present faith as the dynamic of hope and endurance under persecution.

History of Discussion. The church grasped from the first that assent to apostolic testimony is the fundamental element in Christian faith; hence the concern of both sides in the Gnostic controversy to show that their tenets were genuinely apostolic. During the patristic period, however, the idea of faith was so narrowed that this assent came to be regarded as the whole of it. Four factors together caused this: (1) the insistence of the anti-Gnostic fathers, particularly Tertullian, that the faithful are those who believe "the faith" as stated in the "rule of faith" (regula fidei), i.e., the Creed; (2) the intellectualism of Clement and Origen, to whom pistis (assent on authority) was just an inferior substitute for, and stepping stone to, gnosis (demonstrative knowledge) of spiritual things; (3) the assimilation of biblical morality to Stoic moralism, an ethic not of grateful dependence but of resolute selfreliance; (4) the clothing of the biblical doctrine of communion with God in Neoplatonic dress,
which made it appear as a mystical ascent to the supersensible achieved by aspiring love, having no link with the ordinary exercise of faith at all. Also, since the doctrine of justification was not understood, the soteriological significance of faith was misconceived, and faith (understood as orthodox) was regarded simply as the passport to baptism (remitting all past sins) and to a lifelong probation in the church (giving the baptized opportunity to make themselves worthy of glory by their good works).

The scholastics refined this view. They reproduced the equation of faith with credence, distinguishing between fides informis ("unformed" faith, bare orthodoxy) and fides caritate formata (credence "formed" into a working principle by the supernatural addition to it of the distinct grace of love). Both sorts of faith, they held, are meritorious works, though the quality of merit attaching to the first is merely congruent (rendering divine reward fit, though not obligatory), and only the second gains condign merit (making divine reward due as a matter of justice). Roman Catholicism still formally identifies faith with credence, and has added a further refinement by distinguishing between "explict" faith (belief which knows its object) and "implicit" faith (uncomprehending assent to whatever it may be that the church holds).
Only the latter (which is evidently no more than a vote of confidence in the teaching church and may be held with complete ignorance of Christianity) is thought to be required of laymen for salvation. But a mere docile disposition of this sort is poles apart from the biblical concept of saving faith.

The Reformers restored biblical perspectives by insisting that faith is more than orthodoxy, not fides merely, but fiducia, personal trust and confidence in God's mercy through Christ; that it is not a meritorious work, one facet of human righteousness, but rather an appropriating instrument, an empty hand outstretched to receive the free gift of God's righteousness in Christ; that faith is God-given, and is itself the animating principle from which love and good works spontaneously spring; and that communion with God means, not an exotic rapture of mystical ecstasy, but just faith's everyday commerce with the Savior. Confessional Protestantism has always maintained these positions. In Arminianism there resides a tendency to depict faith as the human work upon which the pardon of sin is suspended, as, in fact, man's contribution to his own salvation. This would be in effect a Protestant revival of the doctrine of human merit.

Liberalism radically psychologized faith, reducing it to a sense of contented harmony with the Infinite through Christ (Schleiermacher), or a fixed resolve to follow Christ's teaching (Ritschl), or both together. Liberal influence is reflected in the now widespread supposition that "faith," understood as an optimistic confidence in the friendliness of the universe, divorced from any specific creedal tenets, is a distinctively religious state of mind. Neo-orthodox and existentialist theologians, reacting against this psychologism, stress the supernatural origin and character of faith. They describe it as an active commitment of mind and will, man's repeated "yes" to the repeated summons to decision issued by God's word in Christ; but the elusiveness of their account of the content of that word makes it hard sometimes to see what the believer is thought to say "yes" to.

Clearly, each theologian's view of the nature and saving significance of faith will depend on the views he holds of the Scriptures, and of God, man, and of their mutual relations. J. I. PACKER

Bibliography. E.D. Burton, Galatians; B.B. Warfield in HDB and Biblical and Theological Studies; G.H. Box in HDCG; J.G. Machen, What is Faith? B. Citron, New Birth; systematic theologies of C. Hodge (III, 41-113) and L. Berkhof (IV, viii: 493-509); D.M. Baillie, Faith in God; G.C
. Berkouwer, Faith and Justification; J. Hick, Faith and Knowledge; O. Becker and O. Michel, NIDNTT, II, 587ff.; A. Weiser, TDNT, VI, 174ff.; D.M. Emmet, Philosophy and Faith.[/color]



Jesus warned us Himself of what it would be like for us in the Parable of the Sower:

[color=993300]Matthew 13

1. The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2. And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3. And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4. And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5. Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6. And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8. But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10. And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11. He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15. For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.[/color]

Phillip,

I think you know I dislike quarreling, although I will stand up for what I believe in. We have mis-understood each other before, but always come to some conclusion we can both accept.

My difficulty with Once Saved, Always Saved is not that God will not keep us, depite our sin nature, and our inability to remain in righteousness except through Christ, but that the doctrine as taught leads many to believe that they can sin deliberately, maliciously, lascivously, and teach others to sin as well, and still be saved. I don't want Once Saved, Always Saved taught to babes in Christ, and I would like the sons of God to stand up and be counted about this. And Election is not something that any of us can know about until we are with Jesus, so I dislike the use of those verses on predestination by God being taught to new-borns, or used to explain the OSAS doctrine, much less have it be used by the evil one to mislead new caught fish.

Faith, belief, is an on-going action. But how many babes in Christ ever reach the teaching in Roman's these days, much less the other books of the Bible? Babies do as they are told, and the Devil has been in charge of the Church Corporate for a very long time.

Please, my brother, read and ponder all of this carefully, defending not a tag line about belief, but the minds of the helpless. For if we do not stand up for them, and no one else does either, they are already lost.

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/6/8 5:58Profile
elected
Member



Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK

 Re:

UniqueWebRev wrote :

Quote:
1 John 1:7-9 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Thank you bro for sharing these verses, they are nourishing to the soul, walking in the light of God and living by the grace of God and having fellowship with the children of God and loving each other because God is LOVE.
As we keep communion with the Father and honest fellowship with our brothers & sisters in faith the blood of Jesus cleases us from all sin, i want to say it again all sin, praise Jesus for it.
I want to acknowledge my sins, confess my sins and trust in the faithfulnes of my Lord to forgive all my sins and cleans me from every thing that defile my body and spirit and from all unrighteousness. That's the good news for us believers, there is always grace for the humble and the low. God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.
Quote:
10 Therefore, brothers, [7] be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.


Peter always wanted to remind his fellow believers about those qualities that they already knew.If it was important for them to be reminded of those virtues much more the christians of the 21st century need to make every effort to summplemet to our God given faith those beautiful qualities.
Knowledge, self-controll,steadfastness,godliness, brotherly affection, and to brotherly affaction love...."if these qualities are ours and are increasing, they keep us from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ"
And Peter says that, "... whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins"
If we have these qualities by the grace of God we will never fall.

This is the biblical and apostolic way to make our calling and election sure.

In his love Redi


_________________
Redi

 2007/6/8 7:55Profile









 Re:

Elected and GrannyAnnie,

Thank you both for posting what you posted. That is exactly how I feel. It's funny, I never knew this argument (OSAS Yes/NO) was as it was until about a year ago. After a year of listening and occasionally suggesting some scriptures, what I found out was it can get very heated.!!!

With that said, may we continue to STAY in the Love of God as Jude says, and continue to Grow in the Lord. It's so much more fun! Ha!!

Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

 2007/6/8 13:53
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

I strongly recommend this sermon. It addresses most if not all of the questions and objections that have been raised about OSAS and the issue of continuing in the faith.


http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/1988/636_The_Doctrine_of_Perseverance_The_Future_of_a_Fruitless_Field/

 2007/6/8 15:37Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Observe, 1. The end, that is, the reward, The faith a Christian now lives in the faith of Jesus Christ. It is the salvation of our soul; of His soul eminently, but not exclusively, of body and soul both. The complete salvation of soul and body both with Christ in heaven, shall be the end and reward of the believer's faith.

The diligent search into the faith we have received and the enquiry after, the nature of this salvation, which was searched for and made to be by the prophets of the Old Testament: Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently; that is, by prayer, meditation, and study, they searched after the farther and clearer knowledge of this great salvation, and the kingdom of the Messiah, when should be the time of his sufferings and humiliation, which were to precede his glory and exaltation that would make Him the whole of our salvation and exchanged life by regeneration and new birth.

The success of this, their enquiry and search: they were answered by God, and received this revelation from Him, that they themselves were not the men that should see the Messiah, and His special kingdom; That is the Body of Christ the Church and His Glory of birth in the believer, that is, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory," Col 1:27 and that the things which they prophesied of, were not to be fulfilled in their own times, even the promise to Abraham of the Seed, but in after-times; and accordingly the things foretold by the prophets, he assures them, were clearly manifested to them by the apostles and prophets who were endowed with an extraordinary measure of the Holy Spirit, the answered prayer of Christ to the Father, sent down upon them at the day of Pentecost: Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us, they did minister the things now reported unto you.
1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

Observe, lastly, The sublimity and transcendant excellency of those gospel mysteries which are now revealed; they are so ravishing and transporting, that the holy angels desire to pry into them: Which things the angels desire to look into. The mystery revealed to Paul:

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Learn thence, That the glorious mystery of man's redemption and salvation, that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", by the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ, is an object worthy of the adoring angels. They admire the person of the Redeemer, they admire the author and contriver of the work of our redeeming savior that is now birthed in us and who is now our life our all in all, they admire the born again subjects redeemed, they admire the manner and method of our redemption, they admire the finally glorious state which the redeemed are brought into, that is the presence of God by the Christ in us, seated in heavenly places in Him and possessed of Him in new life. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. The angles, they pry into these things, as the cherubims looked upon the ark, with a curious and accurate inspection, with an earnest and affectionate inspection; they holily admire the wisdom of this glorious contrivance of God before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, and "according to the good pleasure of His will," though even the angels with their raised and enlarged capacities can never be able fully to comprehend it.

Do even we fully comprehend it? Ephesians 3:16-21 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith".
This is the faith given us by God when He birthed His Son in each believer. 1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the Word which by the gospel is preached unto you. Even Christ Himself.

Our faith is as the flower and the grass, which falleth away, It must be the Faith of Christ to reveal these heavenly thing in us for His word and faith endureth forever and so our faith also by Him. Born again of the Spirit and water. in 1 verse, shown below: this is the only appearance of these words.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

This is our water washing by the Word Himself and our new birth and life by the Spirit of Christ that is our.

The beginning and end of this post: Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1 Peter 1:13-16 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Finally: 1 Peter 1:20-22 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Not my faith in God but God's faith in me by the Christ faith that is in me through birth of my Father God. 1Pe 1:21 Who by Him do believe in God, that raised Him up from the dead, and gave Him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. God is my hope and God is my faith by the Christ in me.

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith: Not Pauls faith.

Hbr 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, [the Lord] of glory, with respect of persons.

Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?


In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/6/8 22:37Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Phillip,

"""I think you know I dislike quarreling, although I will stand up for what I believe in. We have mis-understood each other before, but always come to some conclusion we can both accept.

My difficulty with Once Saved, Always Saved is not that God will not keep us, depite our sin nature, and our inability to remain in righteousness except through Christ, but that the doctrine as taught leads many to believe that they can sin deliberately, maliciously, lascivously, and teach others to sin as well, and still be saved. I don't want Once Saved, Always Saved taught to babes in Christ, and I would like the sons of God to stand up and be counted about this. And Election is not something that any of us can know about until we are with Jesus, so I dislike the use of those verses on predestination by God being taught to new-borns, or used to explain the OSAS doctrine, much less have it be used by the evil one to mislead new caught fish."""



I don't want to cause conflict either. New born babes in Christ are run away from the Church more often by Law then them not being able to loose their salvation. Law is so much a part of every believers life that Grace and Faith are a complete foreign idea. If we are saved by Grace through Faith and that not of ourselves, then Grace Faith are not of ourselves. If we are saved by Grace by Faith then I would agree that we could loose our salvation, because it would be by grace through my faith. Since it is not by faith I am saved but through faith, that faith must be the faith of the Son of God.

Loosing ones salvation is the epitome and most vicious lie of Satan which he has always used of the Law, Satan is a law salvation loosing preacher and if lost cannot be renewed to repentance.

I hate organized religion with a passion, for it has taken those that are Christs' and sent them down a works salvation that no one can accomplish. If I am a born again Christian then it is not my faith that gave birth to the Seed (Christ in me) by my faith, the the birth of The Son of God in me by the Faith of the Son of God. Rom 3:27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

The Faith of Christ has made us righteousness and justified, that is "made" by God to us.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

We cannot fall away for Christ will not loose any that have been given to Him.

But if it were possible to fall away there would be no repentance available for they would crucify to themselves again and no salvation would be available just like those that are not His in the First place.

1Cr 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain

"believed in vain"

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved

I don't believe Eternal Security spawns the freedom to sin, but the Freedom to love a God who has given us eternal salvation in His Son by placing Him in each of us that the Father has given to Him. Knowing so great salvation and forgiveness sets us free. Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. We walk in the Spirit not in the flesh.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/6/9 1:40Profile









 Re:

What I'm about to say is something the Lord put on my heart to say, no matter who gets their backs up about it. Truth is Truth. We put our faith in Jesus Christ, not people.

When I came across the argument of OSAS, it was an argument that seemed to be among the Calvinists and Armenians only. An ongoing argument for hundreds of years. Hundreds of years to memorize the same answers to the same questions. No one budges! No one says, gee, I never saw that before, thank you...none of that. Other "Bible believing" Christians, not Calvin believing Christians can see the error on both sides of these two players, yet, get tossed aside as mere novices, knowing nothing, as great Theologians are plastered and pushed in our faces.....having nothing to do with the comment made to begin with. As I watched this behavior for over a year, and the clever ways both sides avoid the real questions, I just shook my head and wondered if either of these really knew the Lord to begin with. Jesus Christ is not a doctrine, Jesus Christ is the Living God who wants you to KNOW HIM.

One question I have never gotten my answer on to the Calvinists is: If Calvin really understood his identification with Jesus Christ in death and resurrection life, why did He fear standing before a tribunal on judgment day? Those who are crucified with Christ and raised up a New Creation, who know that Christ is our life, know we stand IN Christ at the Judgment seat of Christ. Well, that was my first clue there was something amiss about Calvinism. However, that alone caused me to investigate his life even further.

Calvin was considered the Protestant POPE. What he did in Geneva was not different then what the Catholic Church had already done....believed in Dominionism. I found that Calvinism is much of Catholicism, and many Calvinists defend many Catholic practices. Lent for one...a Catholic Tradition. I was told Calvinists also practice Lent....a tradition of the Catholic Church, now very much in Protestant Churches. In this very deep discussion, I learned that even though Calvinists intellectually know many of the doctrines of Grace, when put to the test of these issues,( Lent has nothing to do with Grace or putting an ash on your forehead for ash Wed, has nothing to do with Grace + nothing) were totally clueless. Why? Are Calvinists allowed to **think for themselves**? I guess if one believes they do not have free will, they also believe they do not have free will to think and question, at least not the ones I've had the displeasure of conversing. I don't get answers, I get accused of being mean and nasty. Yet that is not my intention. Again, I asked, If Calvin was the perfect example of this Grace you follow, and supposedly right out of the Bible, why did Calvin murder people who did not agree with him. Is that in the Bible? Did Paul instruct us to do such things? Yet you want to follow the doctrine of a man whose life did not exhibit the very fruit of the Spirit of Christ in you....Love Joy, peace, longsuffering, etc, etc, of which these verses continue to say....and those who are the Lords have crucified the flesh. DID Calvin understand the Crucified life? We are an open book of the Grace of God written on our hearts...open for all to see and read. When I read what was on Calvin's, I don't like what I'm reading. :-( Yet he's held up as the total authority of OSAS, Elect, ect ect. He is NOT! Yet when challenged, I see Calvinists would rather die defending Calvinism than Jesus Christ.

Thanks for listening.
No need to comment, as I've heard ALL there is to be heard. I write this as a warning, Paul says you are still "carnal", (I'm of this or I'm of that) yet you do not know it. Calvin did not die for your sin, Jesus Christ did. Our fruit is the very life of "Christ in you" and "You in Christ".

Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

 2007/6/9 9:27





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