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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:

Katy-did,

I think maybe you missed what Brother Spurgeon was saying. If you claim something it should be seen in your life only then can we say:
"So Do I"

Matthew 7:20-21
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

In His Love
pastorfrin

 2007/6/6 19:52Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
The work of Christ on His cross(atonement) makes away for salvation while the salvation it's self comes from the relationship one has with Him and not just in what he did on the cross.



Who then are the many, the ones who the Messiah bore the sins of in these verses-
Isa 53:10-11 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: [b]by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.[/b]

Notice also, Christ will save His people from their sins, not all people
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call [b]his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. [/b]

His people are the sheep that He dies for, and the ones given Him by the Father of which Christ said none of them would lost, and that noone could take them from His hand.

Only the Church of God has been purchased by the cross. Of course in eternity this was decreed as was the number, and in time is being worked out.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, [b]to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. [/b]

Titus 2:14 [b]Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. [/b]

The "us" applies only to Christians, and notice is does not say that Christ gave Himself for the world to redeem them, but rather us, the people God foreknew, and elected.




Quote:
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or obedience to righteousness?
He does not enslave people, but their own sin does.



But what of this verse?
Romans 6:20 For [b]when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. [/b]

Does Paul not know what he is saying when he says this-
2 Timothy 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Was Christ wrong when He told Paul this was the work for him to do-
Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, [b]and from the power of Satan unto God,[/b] that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Why would they be under the power or authority of satan if what you say is true?


Quote:
If it is ALL GOD and none of man, then you have God making Adam eat of the tree and condeming hif for it, because God is all sovereign and makes ALL things happen whith out the choice of another.

If it is ALL GOD and none of man, then you have God asigning a sin nature on embryos in the womb and charging them with sin and with the guilt of iniquity before it even thinks wrongly. All this causes man to be incapable of turning to God.



But you are not looking at the fact that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, or before anything existed. Therefore God decreed, or allowed sin to come into existence through satan and his deception of Adam and Eve. God could very well have never allowed sin into man, but then there would be no need for a Saviour. You have God making Adam eat of the fruit, but Adam and Eve had a choice(they are the only ones to have a will untainted with sin aside from Christ), yet they willingly forfeited communion with God for satan's deception thus plunging man into death(spiriutal and physical).

Do children die, or get sick? Of course they do thus proving the effect of the fall on them as well as death was not an option prior to the fall of Adam in the garden.

You are trying to peer into the secret will of God, rather than accepting the revealed will of God. God gives us no reason as to why He allowed sin to exist, nor does He tell us why He hasn't chosen all men to be saved, for if He had, they would be.

Quote:
My God creates embryos free of sin. they are free of sin until they are accountable for it.



Again I say this, your god may not be who you think he is, where in Scripture do we see this age of accountability? Or is it a man-made idea?


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/6/6 19:52Profile









 Re:

Christ in you,
Here is the Key words. Also said in Romans 11, Not of works but of Grace.

****not of works, but of him that calleth;)

We are ***His Workmanship***. Grace is the Cross, and the power of the Cross. No longer I but Christ in me. How do we get to a place where we say, "no longer I". Him that calleth, has called us to follow Him into death and resurrection life. It's when we are raised up with Him, (we are saved by His life) that the Spirit of Life in Christ now has free reign to fulfill the promises setting us free from the power of sin and the world ***1st Peter 4. Also giving us a comforter as we go through this painful process. We are HIS workmanship, ****not of works, but of him that calleth;)


Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

 2007/6/6 20:21









 Re:

GrannyAnnie, I too know how you feel about this subject. I believe my main point has always been regardless of whether you believe in OSAS or not, do you believe this is our walk and calling. If one believes in Eternal security then one must also believe and obey what goes with that belief. Jesus came to save sinners and only sinners. He said, I didn't come for the righteous but for sinners to repentance. There is a life that follows our genuine repentance. It is of the utmost importance for those who believe in OSAS to check and make sure you are truly in the faith. I know many Calvinists that scoff at these scriptures, yet claim they are God's elect.

This will be my last word on this subject.
Here they are;

Mark 8:35
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Philippians 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Hebrews 2:8-9 &21Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Philippians 3:10-12
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

2 Corinthians 4:10
Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.


There are more, but you get the idea.
Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

 2007/6/6 20:57









 Re:

Katy-did !

Hi friend.

Did you know I found the best Church I've ever been in since I've been saved, just last year ?

It's a Presbyterian Church of America. PCA.

So you can see how 'upset' I am over this doctrine. 8-)

Mind you - in over 30 yr.s I haven't changed my beliefs, which were the old way that the Assembly of God taught - David Wilkerson, et al.
So - though I'm a "freewiller" - "Foreknowledge" - Pentacostal - I wanted to find a Church where the Pastor would be Very intelligent yet tender and led by God before he speaks, prayers, etc..
They know my background and beliefs, yet I'm going up for membership soon.

They and others from all the other born-again Churches in my town, are my brothers and sisters.
And around here - you would not ever believe how many Churches there are. WOW !!! That's why I moved down here from the COLD north.

Earlier, I think it was on this thread where I said I won't strive over this, because I love my Classic books too and always have. Spurgeon, Murray - tons of them ... that's how I found SI.
Doing a search for T.A. Sparks. :-D

My favorite radio teacher is Allistair Begg.

All the eternal security folks I know, preach/teach 'holiness' and that without it, the person is not saved.
That's good enough for me. ;-)

I love you Katie.
Annie


Edit to add: If you'd like to hear some great sermons by Allistair.
http://www.truthforlife.org/site/PageServer?pagename=lst_overview

 2007/6/6 21:50
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
The work of Christ on His cross(atonement) makes away for salvation while the salvation it's self comes from the relationship one has with Him and not just in what he did on the cross.

Who then are the many, the ones who the Messiah bore the sins of in these verses-
Isa 53:10-11 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: [b]by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.[/b]

Notice also, Christ will save His people from their sins, not all people
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call [b]his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.[/b]


The many are those who are actualy justified(saved), the ones who took advantage of the atonement.
and once again, you are confusing atonement with salvation. "for he shall save his people from their sins." That is not atonement, but salvation.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
His people are the sheep that He dies for,

His "dying" is the atonement, He died for all! Shed His blood for the remission of sins.

Otherwise you can not tell people that you are witnessing to, "christ died for you"
Because He might not have, [b]if[/b] he only died for a few.

How els could Peter tell every one, "Repent and be baptized, each of you on the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."(Act 2:38)

Act 20:28 is about those who actualy took advantage of the Blood of Christ.
Notice the word "might" in Titus 2:14.
That referes to the chance for anyone.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
God could very well have never allowed sin into man, but then there would be no need for a Saviour.


Wouldn't that be Ideal?
Why would God want sin? only to be a saviour?
I think God rather would have no sin and we would not need a sviour because we would still be in God.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
You have God making Adam eat of the fruit, but Adam and Eve had a choice

I've heard people with your doctrin that God is so sovereign that He makes evrything happen, even making Adam sin.
So we are in agreement that Adam chose to eat of his [b]free will[/b].

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Do children die, or get sick? Of course they do thus proving the effect of the fall on them as well as death was not an option prior to the fall of Adam in the garden.


Yes, physical death is the result of Adam, not spiritual death. We bring spiritual death on our selves from our first sin that we are accountable for.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
You are trying to peer into the secret will of God, rather than accepting the revealed will of God. God gives us no reason as to why He allowed sin to exist,


I know why God allowed sin to exist.
It is the only result from free will.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
nor does He tell us why He hasn't chosen all men to be saved, for if He had, they would be.

The same goes for this reason.
The result from free will is the some will choose to reject Christ.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Again I say this, your god may not be who you think he is, where in Scripture do we see this age of accountability? Or is it a man-made idea?


Here it is:
[b]Isaiah 7:16[/b] [color=990000]For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.[/color]

This veres is even about Jesus.

 2007/6/7 0:06Profile









 Re:

Mornin GrannyAnnie, I love you too! You read some of my favorite authors. Andrew Murray has been a wonderful encourager and I connect with what he is saying. I think it is a lonely time for Christians to find that kind of fellowship in real people...I mean people who are alive...today anyway. FB Meyer is another. These oldie but goldies are who the Lord put in my path to let me know what He was teaching me, He also taught to others.

Anyway, you have a blessed day, I'll keep in touch!
Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

 2007/6/7 6:11
elected
Member



Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK

 Re:

Hi folks,

Without getting into a discussion can someone give a definition of the word - election.

Hey i'm elected but i'm not a calvinist, i believe in the election according to God and not Calvin.

If we have wrong conception about the doctrine of election let us not have wrong perception at least what it means to DO God's will and know Christ.

If we are truly christians then we sould know Jesus personally in our hearts and hear the voice of the Shepherd and folow Him.

If we bear fruits and have a faith that works by love, and shows itself it good works and abide in Jesus and let his word abide in us, it means for me that the one who does such a thing is for sure elected and dearly loved of God.

We are saved by grace alone but true faith leads to good works.A good tree will bear good fruits otherwise it risks to be cursed.

Many christians will pass through the trial of fire, even though their works will burn up their souls will be saved but no rewards for them.

Many still will be amazed in the last judgment to realize that even they had religious experiences, had tasted the word of God, the powers of the world to come, performed miracles and cast out demons ect but unfortunatly will find themselves excluded from the kingdome of Heaven and New Jerusalem.

Praise God there will be one day in heaven countless of people from every nation, tribe and language elected to the glory of our heavenly Father and his Son Jesus.


_________________
Redi

 2007/6/7 7:47Profile









 Re:

Elected, that was excellent. Thank you!

Jesus Christ is the foundation we build upon. We grow up into the fullness and stature of Him. The Gold, Silver and Precious stone is Christ In You. Paul said, I bare in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus. We are His workmanship. We walk in the works He has prepared for us to walk in. Without a totally surrendered life, it would be impossible to even know the Will of God.

To present your selves a living sacrifice
This is your reasonable service
Be not conformed to this world, but transformed by the renewing of your mind...****that Ye may know the will of God.**** all else is wood, hay, and stubble.

With our renewed mind, we bring every thought into the obedience of Jesus Christ, for the pulling down of strongholds over our old flesh nature, and our entanglement in the world. We are no longer part of this world system. We are a New Creation In Christ, being strengthened by might in the inner man, to know the length, breadth, height and depth of our Lord Jesus Christ, growing up into all the fullness of Him.

This is what you are elected for. Elected to exalt Jesus Christ! Just as Israel was Elected to Exalt and bring forth the coming Redeemer, we too at this time are elected to bring the message of the Gospel of Jesus to a lost and dying world. Whosoever Will may come!!

Love in Christ
Katy-did
:-)

 2007/6/7 8:26









 Re: elected

Quote:
Without getting into a discussion can someone give a definition of the word - election.



O.K. - Nope.

:-D Hi Elected, I liked your post too.

I just couldn't give a definition of election "without getting into a discussion".

But I did like your post.

Katy-did - I signed back on here whenever it was, and prayed we'd never see "a little sheep being roasted for dinner".

Still praying - so, rest in His Power that is made Perfect in our weakness. :-)


I love all the Classics too and that's why I'm a middle of the road person now.
I believe the "elect" are eternally secure.
As far as defining "elect" again in my understanding - you already know that part and it still doesn't contradict what most of what y'all have written. Both sides.

There's so much agreement on these pages, that I don't know why there's so many pages. :-D

I believe in freewill and that the elect are those who God through his foreknowledge knew would serve Him in Spirit and in Truth - in HIS LOVE, until the/their end.

Too close to you guy's way of believing to post against ya's. We agree - as you and elected posted in different ways but same type verses that, we're to make our election sure.

But just wanted to say hi back and shoot 2Corth12:9 & 10 back at ya.

Thanks and Peace.

 2007/6/7 20:39





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