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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
sscott wrote:
Can you explain how you view election in light of not believing in limited atonement?

I'll jump on that one.
[b]Rom 8:29[/b] [color=990000]For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren[/color]
[b]1Peter 1:2[/b] [color=990000]Elect [b]according to[/b] the foreknowledge of God the Father[/color]

Must allways be in reguard to His foreknowledge of whoo will choose.

As I made an example before:
I know my wife so well that I know that she will choose "Olive Guarden" over all other restaurants
if it is in the choises.
Therefore I make reservations before I ask and order her usual mean all before I ask.

It was all predetermind, and she had all the chances to go anywhere els in the choices, but I foreknew that we were going to "Olive Guarden"

Another example:
I am alreay at "Olive Guarden" and I will only elect those to come to where I am eating, that want to be at "Olive Guarden" with me.
I foreknew that some hate me and not like where I am.
However, I love those who hate me enough to make away for them to come and dine with me, and give the invitation out to all who love and hate me.

Quote:
jimp wrote:
hi logic, you put man as the center of salvation and security while some of us put God in the center.


No, I put man in the need of salvation and security and responsibility for that on man.

Man sees his need and chooses the alternatives of the world which is seen or something that is not seen but evidently real..

If man does not have choice, that woiuld mean there is no alternative.
There must be an alternative for man, otherwise he is not responsible for going to his end.

Not responsible also for his end if he personaly didn't put the condemnation on himself as people say that Adam did.

Not being personaly responsible for his own fall with no alternative to choose makes God to be a tyrant that creates man especialy for hell and only some for heaven.

With choice of alternative, man is the one responsible for being thrown to hell by knowingly rejecting the truth with all the ability of choosing eather.

Quote:
jimp wrote:
we preach whosoever will may come for it is truth

You can't tell any one that Jesus died for them bcause with your doctrine, He might not have and you don't want to lie about what Jesus did or didn't to.

Quote:
jimp wrote:
your logic is simplistic and not one that sees God as very sovereign.

You see by figuring that if man had free will to choose his own destiny, it would diminish God's sovereignty. This doctrine figures that if God gives an authority to man as freedom to choose or even free will it would diminish His sovereignty or He would not have any ability to perform his own will over that of mans. While in reality, this magnifies God's sovereignty by showing His ability to have government over what man has authority of.

My doctrine gives God more sovereignty and glory.

Quote:
Katy-did wrote:
Logic, I hope this answers your question.

Nope, I don't see any answer to What and WHO do you think ones are "falling away" from in 2Thes 2:3?
&
Who will heap up teachers to themselves in 2Tim 4:3-4

Sorry, all you keep doing is putting scripture that I see no relivsznce to.
If there is, please comment on who & how the scriptures sais that they are "falling away" from what or Who, and Who will heap up teachers to themselves.

 2007/6/6 14:04Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Logic wrote:
Must allways be in reguard to His foreknowledge of whoo will choose.

The scripture you quote only says according to his foreknowledge. Please direct me to the scripture that says it is a foreknowledge of who would choose.

 2007/6/6 14:38Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Called and elected are eternally saved in Christ Jesus. Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

This speaking of Esau and Jacob also speaks to us that the election might stand of Him that calleth and giveth to Christ those that are His, that no one can take out of His hand.

Unless God is an abortionist. Eternal Security? Yes to the utmost.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/6/6 15:22Profile









 Re:

sscott,
You asked, how do I view Romans 9. Well my answer is completely different than Calvinism. Firstly, I would like to say I am a Born Again Jew. My Grandfather first came to the Lord, then my Grandmother, and on down. My father, an orphan, also Jewish, became a Christian later in years. So what I am about to say, is not silliness of any sort, or a putdown or argument to be started. The Lord called me out over 30 years ago, and pulled me out of Calvinism, to learn of Him. What I have learned is from the Lord, and not the doctrine of men. It didn't come cheap, and I will proclaim it until I die. Now with that being said, lets go to Romans 9.

Romans 9 need to be kept with Romans 9-11. Just as Romans 6-8 should never be separated. Romans 9 begins and states " The Children of PROMISE. Now ask, what Promise? Here is the answer is several scriptures. 1. The Promise of the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant. 2. Reiterated again in Galatians, the Promise of the Spirit now to the Gentiles. 3. Now look at Hebrews 11, where after giving a long list of the Hall of faith, it says, they died without the PROMISE. Now we know it wasn't the promise of salvation, but the promise of the Spirit. The PROMISE of the Spirit is the Spirit of Life in Christ that set you free from the Law of Sin and death. It says, they "without us" could not be made perfect. These OT are now the Spirits of JUST men made perfect. *Hebrews 13. Their perfection came when Jesus rose from the dead. Romans 9 begins " Not all Israel is Israel, but in *ISAAC* will thy seed be called. Now look again in Galatians, Abrahams seed is Christ...not many seeds, but one seed...Christ. Now I'm sometimes wondering if Calvinism isn't a little like Mormonism where there are many SEEDS who are just waiting to inhabit the pre-elected bodies. If you see yourself as an individual pre-elected seed, then you are seeing yourself as a little god. Our life is in Christ only. Only Jesus Christ can give life to these mortal bodies. When we receive Jesus Christ, we receive the PROMISE and are Children of Promise. The promise of life out of death. The Promise in Genesis 3:15 that a redeemer would come. My election is only in Christ. Just because God knows the beginning from the end doesn't mean we are claymatians or puppets. Acts says, that the Promise of the Spirit are given to those who obey. Well, then it must take our act of obedience ..otherwise God would say to those who are my elect. If obedience precedes the Holy Spirit, then certainly a person cannot be regenerated prior to repentance or why even say that at all.

sscott, I hope I haven't lost you. Pharaoh represents the world...Egypt, The elect or children of Promise are those who are not longer part of this world system. Even in Romans 11, God's elect are those who refuse to bend the knee to Baal...earthly worship. I guess I would have more right to call myself God's elect, but I had to repent and receive salvation just as the scriptures say.
The parallel between Romans 9 and the allegory in Galatians is to be read together. May the Lord open your eyes to see these wonderful truths.
(Besides.. Pharaoh hardened his own heart)!! Just because God chose Jacob over Esau and said the elder will serve the younger, did not by any means mean God sentenced Esau to hell. Can more than one in a family be saved? I do hope so. God chose Jacob over Esau the way He chose Isaac over Ishmael. Isaac was a miracle child, and promised to Abraham and Sarah out of their own bodies. The child was a gift from God. Not all Israel is Israel, but in Isaac will thy seed be called. And those who are Abraham’s seed are heirs according to PROMISE. What Promise? The Promise of the Spirit of Life IN Christ that will set you free from the law of sin and death. This mortal must put on immortality. We put on Christ! Jesus Christ is our life…no longer I but Christ in me…the Hope of Glory!

Love in Christ
Katy-did
:-)

 2007/6/6 18:41









 Re:

Phillip, Jacob I loved Esau I hated. The same goes for today, those who prefer the things of this world are no different than Esau. God did not create someone to hate. God is talking about the KIND of person Esau represents. Did God say, Abel I loved and Cain I hated? No, but we can read about those who God loves in Hebrews 11. Those who left the riches of Egypt to suffer teh reproach of Christ with the people of God. This is who God Loves. Those He said, who eat my flesh and drink my blood. When one takes ALL these scriptures and lays them on the table, it's very easy to see what God is saying. You want election without responsibility or obedience or the fellowship of His sufferings. Paul, who also was elect, was ELECTED TO SUFFER. We must never forget that. This is our calling whether we like it or not. This is what conformes us to His image.

Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

 2007/6/6 18:59
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
I do know what the Bible says about the atonement, and it does not say it is for all men. All men will not be saved therefore the atonement is not for all men. Is unbelief a sin? if it is, then why didn't the universal atonement cancel that out for all?

You just prooved that you don't know what atonement is in your statement. The atonement does not save. it is for all so that they [b]may[/b] be saved

The work of Christ on His cross(atonement) makes away for salvation while the salvation it's self comes from the relationship one has with Him and not just in what he did on the cross.

Sounds like I'm repeating myself.

Atonement does not save, but [b]is for all[/b] who will take advantage of it.
The relationship with Christ does. The actual salvation is eternal life (John 17:3).

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
I said satan is the god of the unsaved as he has enslaved and deceived them, thus he entraps them in the sin they love.


[b]Rom 6:16[/b] [color=990000]Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or obedience to righteousness?[/color]
He does not enslave people, but their own sin does.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
This would work except Paul here is speaking as a saved man, thus he sees the conflict and the battle of enjoying one while hating the other.

Romans 7 is describing his presalvation starting in v.5 " For when we were in the flesh..."
From v9 to the end is his presalvation
[b]Rom 7:9[/b] [color=990000]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.....[/color]

Therefore the verses I shown do describe a man unsaved depraved, but not [b]totaly[/b].

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
In the unsaved, there is no battle, man drinks down iniquity like water.

The battle is in Romans 7:9-25

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Unsaved man has more in common with the devil and his demons than he does with God.

That is your problem right there.
[b]Hebrews 2:6-7[/b] [color=990000]But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
[b]:7[/b] Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:[/color]

Quote:
[b]Luke 12:5[/b] [color=990000]But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.[/color]

roaringlamb wrote:
It says nothing about man sending himself to hell, but rather God casting them into hell.

Why are they cast into hell by God?

Because they did not take advantage of His forgiveness to be saved.

If it is [b][size=large]ALL GOD[/size][/b] and none of man, then you have God making Adam eat of the tree and condeming hif for it, because God is all sovereign and makes ALL things happen whith out the choice of another.

If it is [b][size=large]ALL GOD[/size][/b] and none of man, then you have God asigning a sin nature on embryos in the womb and charging them with sin and with the guilt of iniquity before it even thinks wrongly. All this causes man to be incapable of turning to God.

The man who brought none of this on himself because Adam did, but you say that the man himself did but I don't know how, because they can't choose not to sin from the start and the sin is not a choice from the begining but it is who one is.

There is know fault of man what soever in this doctrine.
I can not make sence out of your god.

My God creates embryos free of sin. they are free of sin until they are accountable for it.

Then the are free to choose Christ to free them of theire inability to continualy obey the law.

If one does not choose Christ, it is because He [b]will not[/b] choose, [b]not[/b] because he [b]can not[/b] and by default he chooses to go to hell.

Incapability take guilt away, because thyere is no law against incapabilities.

 2007/6/6 19:02Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Isaiah 55:10-11 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

"""Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Ro 9:7
Verse 7. Are they all children. Adopted into the true family of God. Many of the descendants of Abraham were rejected.
But in Isaac. This was the promise, Ge 21:12.

Shall thy seed, etc. Thy true people. This implied a selection, or choice; and, therefore, the doctrine of election was illustrated in the very commencement of the history of the nation; and as God had then made such a distinction, he might still do it. As he had then rejected a part of the natural descendants of Abraham, so he might, still do it. This is the argument which the apostle is pursuing.

{i} "In Isaac" Isa 55:11"""

The Fruit of God's promise through whom the Promised Seed Christ would come by the Spirit.

First: Ishmael: Genesis 21:12-13 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.

The Seed of Abraham is the bases of Islam, who has been against Israel from Abraham's Loins. The fruit of the flesh of Abraham.

This is not the Seed of Isaac that is to be called to fulfill God's Word sent forth.

Isaiah 55:10-13 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.

This is the Seed of Christ, of the promise to Abraham. Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy Seed, which is Christ

Isaiah 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

This is the Seed given to the Sower, who is God. He sows the Seed of Christ in us when we are born again. 1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The Seed is the One that brings forth the "bud", that causes the fruit of Christ to be born again of Christ in the believer. Seed to the Sower, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", and gives "bread", to the one that eats His flesh and drinks His blood, "This do in remembrance of Me".

Isaiah 55:12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

This is the Word, born again in us by the Incorruptable Seed of Christ. This is the mountains and the hills singing of the Glory of God in Christ. Even the trees of the field shall clap their at This Glory, which is Christ come forth on the earth as rain and snow that waters the born again seed in the believer, which is the Holy Spirit.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

This Word sent forth which is Christ the Word of God, shall not return into God void, It will accomplish that which God pleases, It will prosper into the believer unto where He sends it.

How can God loose that which He has accomplished in the believer by the birthing of His Son in us. Eternal Security is accomplished by God and it does please Him. We cannot loose our salvation, when it is God that gives it and it will not return void unto Him.

Isaiah 55:13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.

We cannot be cut off, For we are to the Lord His Name, Christ-ones, this is the everlasting sign in Christ, not only Christians but son's of God in The Seed, Jesus Christ.

In Christ forever, sealed by the Holy Spirit
"given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Who do we believe in? John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/6/6 19:04Profile
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:

“Are they Israelites? so am I.”
— 2 Corinthians 11:22

We have here a personal claim, and one that needs proof. The apostle knew that his claim was indisputable, but there are many persons who have no right to the title who yet claim to belong to the Israel of God. If we are with confidence declaring, “So am I also an Israelite,” let us only say it after having searched our heart as in the presence of God. But if we can give proof that we are following Jesus, if we can from the heart say, “I trust him wholly, trust him only, trust him simply, trust him now, and trust him ever,” then the position which the saints of God hold belongs to us—all their enjoyments are our possessions; we may be the very least in Israel, “less than the least of all saints,” yet since the mercies of God belong to the saints as saints, and not as advanced saints, or well-taught saints, we may put in our plea, and say, “Are they Israelites? so am I; therefore the promises are mine, grace is mine, glory will be mine.” The claim, rightfully made, is one which will yield untold comfort. When God’s people are rejoicing that they are his, what a happiness if they can say, “So am I!” When they speak of being pardoned, and justified, and accepted in the Beloved, how joyful to respond, “Through the grace of God, so am I.” But this claim not only has its enjoyments and privileges, but also its conditions and duties. We must share with God’s people in cloud as well as in sunshine. When we hear them spoken of with contempt and ridicule for being Christians, we must come boldly forward and say, “So am I.” When we see them working for Christ, giving their time, their talent, their whole heart to Jesus, we must be able to say, “So do I.” O let us prove our gratitude by our devotion, and live as those who, having claimed a privilege, are willing to take the responsibility connected with it.
(Spurgeon)

Quote:
When we see them working for Christ, giving their time, their talent, their whole heart to Jesus, we must be able to say, “So do I.” O let us prove our gratitude by our devotion, and live as those who, having claimed a privilege, are willing to take the responsibility connected with it.



John 8:31-32
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; [32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.


So do I!

 2007/6/6 19:07Profile









 Re:

Pastorfrin, I believe as scripture teaches that the middle wal was torn down between Jew and Gentile, and we are ONE NEW MAN, a New Creation in Christ Jesus...No longer Jew or Gentile. The Church did not replace Israel or the Promises to Israel. Only to read Romans 11 should tell you that. God closed their eyes so YOU could find salvation. And when the fulness of teh Gentiles are come in GOD WILL TURN BACK TO ISRAEL and all Israel will be saved. Not because we understand it, but because God said so.

I see Romans 11 parallel with the Story of Joseph. Joseph, a type of Christ was rejected by his own, sold into slavery, went to the Gentiles. Pharoah saw that Joseph's God was mighty indeed, and because of that Egypt was blessed. Out of teh Blessings of the Gentiles (Egypt at that time) Israel was blessed during a great drought. His brothers did indeed look upon him whom they left for dead (they looked upon him whom they pierced), Joseph FORGAVE and brought them all to Egypt.... This could very well represent the church, But the story doesn't end there. 400 years later...there arose in Egypt a King who knew not Joseph (Gentile arrogance) and abused israel, and God sent a deliver Moses... God says in Romans He will send a deliver... God is not finished with Israel yet, you are not Israel, the Church did not replace Israel. At the middle to end of Revelations, they overcame the Beast and " They sang the song of Moses". Gentiles have no reados to sing the "Song of Moses". It's a song of great deliverance, and God is going to send a Deliverer our of Sion. God doesn't lie!

Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

 2007/6/6 19:36
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Called and elected are eternally saved in Christ Jesus. Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

This speaking of Esau and Jacob also speaks to us that the election might stand of Him that calleth and giveth to Christ those that are His, that no one can take out of His hand.

Unless God is an abortionist. Eternal Security? Yes to the utmost.

The election here is not about eternal salvation but who would be chosen for promise of the SEED.

Unless God is an nut job in the sky who doesn't care if men willfuly come to him and stay with him. Eternal Security? no, to the utmost.

Does your god want men to willfuly come and stay with him or does he creat them in the woumb(Psalm 51:5 ) so that they are incapable and He needs to make them willing?
What glory is that?

The security is that God is definatly going to keep his word, not us definatly staying with him.

Look at reality, there are thousands of men who are forgiven and take Christs sacrifice for their sins. But they drift awy so very subtly from the tuth that they distort the truth so much that it eventualy becomes a complete lie.

They didn't purposfuly love a lie, but they didn't love the pure truth eather. They loved the mixture of truth with the lies.

They loved the truth that Chrst saved them from their sins and saved them from hell, but they loved the lie that God saved them to make their life better. He saved them from poverty. When they get into the TBN doctrine they exchange the truth for a lie(Rom 1:25)

 2007/6/6 19:42Profile





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