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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi logic, you put man as the center of salvation and security while some of us put God in the center. for thousands of years salvation was of the jews only, damning the rest of the world. the gospel is that man is already guilty and sentenced to death and a merciful God saves some. we preach whosoever will may come for it is truth.predestination is a past event only controled by God only,we don't have a clue who he elected so we preach like arminians and believe like calvinist.is the door an exit or an entrance? is the traffic signal red or green... it is always both red and green.. depends upon which way you approach it. your logic is simplistic and not one that sees God as very sovereign. jimp

 2007/6/6 1:41Profile









 Re:

Logic, I hope this answers your question.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved *******it is the power of God.********


2 Thessalonians 2:7-12
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Thessalonians 3:3But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

WHO?

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved *******it is the power of God.********


Logic, look for a minute at the Tabernacle. You have the inner Court, the outer Court and the Holy of Holies. Just because many are standing in the inner or outer court doesn't mean they are saved. Only those who have come into the Holy of Holies have come right to the Father through Jesus Christ. Heb 10 we enter through the veil to the Holy of Holies through Jesus Christ, through the veil, that is to say His flesh.

Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

 2007/6/6 5:16









 Re:

Logic, part 2

I just wanted to add that I do not believe in Calvinism or limited atonement. Here is why. When "all" came out of Egypt under the Blood, ALL did not go into the Promise land. Those who came out under the blood died in their sins in the wilderness. Hebrews is a wonderful book to counter all false doctrine. Jesus surely died for the sin of the whole world as stated in 1st John. Not only for ours, BUT FOR THE SIN OF THE WHOLE WORLD. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. When I "Heard" the complete Gospel then I had a choice..To give my life to the Lord or not.
Many Calvinists confuse the Covenant promises of Sanctification with initial salvation. Whosoever will may come to the Lord. And those who do, God will in no wise cast out and has promised to never leave or forsake.

Much of Calvinism is based ona verse in John 6, but fail to see who Jesus was talking to. In John 7, Jesus Clarifies what He means. He said, Haven't you heard that He would come from teh seed of David. You see, Jesus would never say anything like this to Gentiles, what would they have known about that. Jesus was saying, YOU ALL ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE. Abraham rejoiced to see my day. Yet you call yourself Abraham's seed?

You don't see those who "crossed" the Jordan wanting to go back to Egypt. But you did see those who were in the wilderness wanting to go back. Why? The same as today. Look in Revelations where the Angel took John to see where the Woman "Mystery Babylon" is....the dessert or wilderness. Those, like Israel at the time of Jesus, who wanted to climb over some other way. The Jordan represents the Cross, the Promise land represents Jesus Christ. The book parallels Ephesians for the Saints!
Hope that helps!
Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

 2007/6/6 6:28









 Re:

Hi Katy-did,

Quote:
I just wanted to add that I do not believe in Calvinism or limited atonement. Here is why. When "all" came out of Egypt under the Blood, ALL did not go into the Promise land.



Can you explain how you view election in light of not believing in limited atonement?

thanks,

sscott

 2007/6/6 8:20
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7515
Mississippi

 Re:

I have not been following this discussion because too often one that deals with OSAS becomes long and involved and I have too much other work to do. So, I did read a few postings and one poster said something about using Scripture to defend a position. When I hear this subject discussed, my mind goes to Ezekiel 18 and here it is for your consideration. It is from the NASB:
1Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
2"What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying,
'The fathers eat the sour grapes,
But the children's teeth are set on edge'?
3"As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore.
4"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine The soul who sins will die.
5"But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness,
6and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period--
7if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
8if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man,
9if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully--he is righteous and will surely live," declares the Lord GOD.
10"Then he may have a violent son who sheds blood and who does any of these things to a brother
11(though he himself did not do any of these things), that is, he even eats at the mountain shrines, and defiles his neighbor's wife,
12oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore a pledge, but lifts up his eyes to the idols and commits abomination,
13he lends money on interest and takes increase; will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he will surely be put to death; his blood will be on his own head.
14"Now behold, he has a son who has observed all his father's sins which he committed, and observing does not do likewise.
15"He does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor's wife,
16 or oppress anyone, or retain a pledge, or commit robbery, but he gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
17he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father's iniquity, he will surely live.
18"As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity.
19"Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity?' When the son has practice justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.
20"The person who sins will die The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22"All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right ' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26"When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
27"Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28"Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29"But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
30"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct," declares the Lord GOD. "Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31"Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."



To any who would challenge the use of an OT Scripture, I would have to ask, is there a NT one which will directly contradict it? Remember the Jesus' teachings were first introduced to people through the OT prophets. So when Jesus came on the scene, he really did not preach anything the OT prophets have not alluded to in one form or another. He may have clarfied it, expanded on it, but the essense was there.

Please pardon me if this has already been shared...

Blessings,
ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2007/6/6 10:08Profile









 Re:

sscott,

Elect, Precious, The Chief Corner Stone, Jesus Christ. The Church was elect, predestined, and for-ordained from the foundation of the world. We, as the Body of Christ have been *predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ*. The Church has been elect to reign and rule with Christ during the 1000 year Millennial Reign. The Elect will also judge angels. Corinthians.

I've heard many (Calvinists) say the Elect are those God just picked their names out of a hat, for no reason but just to exercise His sovereignty. I believe GOD'S WORD is Sovereign, and that man has free will within the will of God. In other words, we do not have a free will to translate ourselves to another planet, or change into a cat. But God has allowed within His will for men to accept Him or Reject Him, and whatever man chooses,(God has given men free Choice within His will) will not set the universe tumbling our of control as some might suggest. Some teach, He elected some to salvation and others to Hell. That we have no free will, are robots and on and on. If that were so, why did Jesus die on a cross, "OPENLY Crucified" for all to see, only to stand and stick out His tongue and tell the un-elect??...I don't want you?? This is not what the Bible teaches. It is God’s will that all should come to repentance, but because of free choice, not all will come. The invitation is open to all, to receive the Gift of Salvation. Many Calvinists believe FAITH is the Gift, but the Bible teaches, Jesus Christ is the Gift. No where does the Bible teach a person is regenerated (saved) first in order to have the faith to get saved. What that teaches is no repentance is necessary. It also denies the obedience of Romans 6. You see, the Blood of Jesus did wash away our sin, but it didn’t wash away our old man. Only the Cross can do that. We die daily, we become obedient unto death, we continually keep this mind in us. Etc, etc, BUT, this doctrine teaches that obedience is considered WORKS, and that to be obedient after you are saved is working for your salvation. Now I know there are different degrees of Calvinism, and now is something called Hyper Calvinism. (It’s Gnosticism) Romans 16:25-27, Paul said,
"The Gospel According to the Mystery", for the Obedience of faith TO ALL NATIONS.

The Mystery is ”Christ in you”, the Hope of Glory.

I don’t know if that answered your question, but maybe a beginning entry to build upon.
Love in Christ
Katy-did

:-)

 2007/6/6 11:35









 Re:

HI Katy-did,

If I can I would like to ask you a few more questions. How do you understand Romans 9 in light of how you view election?


Also below is part of an email I sent to someone else. I thought I would post it here and you could post your thoughts on it.

Quote:
Do you believe that Election is based on God forseeing future faith or that God before time Elects people He choses?

I've read some of Spurgeons writing on this subject. Here is what he says regarding "God forseeing faith" in his article on Election.

"But," others say, "God elected them on the foresight of their faith." Now, God gives faith therefore He could not have elected them on account of faith, which He foresaw. If there were twenty beggars in the street, and I determine to give one of them a dollar, will anyone say that I determined to give that one a dollar, that I elected him to have the dollar, because I foresaw that he would have it? That would be talking nonsense. Likewise, to say that God elected men because He foresaw they would have faith, would be too absurd for us to listen to for a moment. Faith is the gift of God.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/elect.htm


It did not seem as if some men had a choice in the matter. Ex. Jeremiah and John the Baptist.

Also as I think on the subject of the free will of man I have come across scripture that seems to show that mans free will is not always as free as we think it is.

Two instances:

23 For there stood by me this night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve, 24 saying, 'Do not be afraid, Paul; you must be brought before Caesar; and indeed God has granted you all those who sail with you.' (Acts 27:23-24)

Here and Angel tells Paul that God has given him all the lives in the boat. It's a done deal.

Then you have Paul saying:

31 Paul said to the centurion and the soldiers, "Unless these men stay in the ship, you cannot be saved." 32 Then the soldiers cut away the ropes of the skiff and let it fall off.


Paul knew God have given him the lives yet he gave the men a choice. Could the men have chosen another option? I don't think so. God gave them to Paul. Their choice seemed like free will but was it really? Was the choice a mean to an end? It's interesting.

Here's another example I came across while reading 1 Samuel:

Sauls servant says:

6 And he said to him, "Look now, there is in this city a man of God, and he is an honorable man; all that he says surely comes to pass. So let us go there; perhaps he can show us the way that we should go." (1 Sam 9:6)

Then Saul says:
10 Then Saul said to his servant, "Well said; come, let us go." So they went to the city where the man of God was. ( 1 Sam 9:10)


It looks like Saul and his servant are choosing to go see Samuel. But look at what the Lord tells Samuel:

16 "Tomorrow about this time I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him commander over My people Israel, that he may save My people from the hand of the Philistines; for I have looked upon My people, because their cry has come to Me."

So God actually sent Saul to Samuel. Could Saul have chosen to reject his servants advise to go see Samuel? I don't think so. So what appeared to be a free will choice was only one in part.

I am starting to see though that mans "free-will" is not always as free as we think it is.



 2007/6/6 12:10
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
I've heard many (Calvinists) say the Elect are those God just picked their names out of a hat, for no reason but just to exercise His sovereignty.



Hi katy, I apologize for whoever told you this as this is not Scriptural. God bases election upon foreknowledge of certain ones. We of course have no idea who are elect, or how many are elect thus the need to preach the Gospel to all creatures.

I think this verse shows a foreknowledge aspect in whom Christ died for
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us,[i](Of course the "us" is Christians that Paul is addressing, and not unbelievers)[/i] in that, while we were yet sinners,[i](God's foreknowloedge of who was to be justified by the Cross)[/i] Christ died for us.[i](Again note the "us" is the church, and not all people, thus limiting the atoning aspect of the cross)[/i]

Paul further emphasises the atonement point here
Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, [b]by whom we have now received the atonement.[/b]

The "we" is of course Christians whom Paul was writing to.

So the question is, if God in time past knew those who He would redeem in the future, then we must bow to the idea that God has a remnant from all humanity that He will save. it is no different than when the flood happened. God knew that only Noah and his family would be delivered, yet He flooded the Earth.

Now as to your points about the OT view of atonement, I believe your use of Israel in the wilderness may not be the best illustration against limited or particular atonement.

Here's why,
- Firstly, we do not know that those who died in the wilderness are indeed in hell(If there is Scripture, let me know, and I will retract this point)

-Second, the atonement at the Passover was indeed limited. It had no effectiveness for those in Egypt, unless they fled to the homes of the Israelites. Thus we see that the atoning or appeasing work was limited to a group. I rarely here any cry that it was unfair for Pharaoh, or the children that died that evening.

-Third, the whole sacrificial system was indeed limited to Israel alone. The Hittites, Hivites, Philistines, Babylonians etc. had no part in the effect of the sacrifices being offered to God, and thus they had no covering for their sins. Again, I do not ever hear many saying how unfair it was of God not to open another way for all to be included in the sacrifices. Of course there were individuals from those groups that partook of the sacrifices which are usually referred to as "the stranger among you", but as a whole, God's people alone had benefit of the sacrifice.

We too as the people of God have the benefit of the Sacrifice, and again sadly it does not have universal effect. It is indeed limited to those whom God foreknew, those who were yet sinners when Christ died for them, but are being brought into the fold presently.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/6/6 12:18Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Bro. sscott,
Thank you for your post. I reccommend a book entitled "The Bondage Of The Will" by Martin Luther. It is as he said his best theological work. It is based upon a debate he and Erasmus had regarding the freedom of man's will.

The will of man so far as I can see is like a man in a cell. He may stand freely, and walk around but, he is still in the cell. Thus a man may make choices about what he will do, eat, drink etc., but the heart is in love with and in bondage to sin is his mater, and he is not free at all. Jesus said it best, "he that committs sin is the slave of sin", and Paul said, "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" Romans 6:16

But in all of this the Divine hand is at work, look at Joseph's words to his brothers
Genesis 45:4 And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, [b]I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.[/b]
Genesis 45:5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: [b]for God did send me before you to preserve life.[/b]
Gen 45:6 For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest.
Gen 45:7 [b]And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth,[/b] and to save your lives by a great deliverance.
Gen 45:8 [b]So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God:[/b] and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt

Genesis 50:18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.
Genesis 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?
Genesis 50:20 But as for you, [b]ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good,[/b] to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Here's a couple more verse to consider
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, [b]even the wicked for the day of evil.[/b]


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/6/6 12:38Profile









 Re:Wow !

ginnyrose ~ thank you for your post.

I know those verses very well and I honor you for posting them.

Imagine being a Jew, and hearing from Christians, that they were either thrown out of God's Plan and replaced by Christians instead or that the "Church will fly away", but you jews have to stay here and be "refined by fire during Jacob's trouble for all "YOUR" sins - but us Christians can sin and be saved unconditionally forever because "we're" the elect and you're not".

Basically, that is what is being said, in many circles when we seperate God's Chosen into two seperate peoples. OR, also seperating the O.T. from the New, as you said.

Only the 'way' to forgiveness has changed and some of the ceremonial laws and such, but as it was then, so it is now, for "being faithful unto the end".

Around vs. 21 of your post of Exekiel 18, it sounds a lot like 1John - doesn't it.

No contention here - I debated this doctrine for months 5 years ago and I'm burnt out on it ... I just loved that you posted that chpt..
I also appreciate - on this site - agreeing where we can and not throwing stones. Many of the Authors that are carried on this Site, oppose each other's doctrines by their writings, but we can gather from all of them. So even though I may not agree with you on headcoverings or LittleGift on OSAS, I agreed with her on her posts about "suffering" and elsewheres on other topics.

Love was the first and foremost commandment.
I haven't met a member here that I haven't gleaned some good thought(s) from.


Lord Bless Sis.

 2007/6/6 13:46





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