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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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 Re:

There seem to be two reasons given here about falling away:
1. Going back into sin/ and or
2. Departing from the Faith

Romans 6 addresses the first one..shall we continue to sin that Grace may abound? God Forbid. And again here Peter too tells us how this Amazing Grace manifests within the Believer:

1 Peter 4
1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Peter says we are to arm ourselves likewise.

Isn't this what Romans 6-8 is all about. The flesh vs walking in the Spirit. Those who are "LEAD" by the Spirit are the Children of God. It's the Spirit that leads you into this fellowship. Not only so, but we re also sealed in the Holy Spirit. No zip lock here, or any leakage.


So would sin of the flesh be going back into the world? Putting your faith in the things of this world and not Christ.

The Bible says, "The just shall live by FAITH". and what is not of faith is sin. Our faith is believing what God said is true. Our faith is in Jesus Christ, not faith in faith or faith in ourselves. Abraham BELIEVED God and it was counted to him for righteousness. Look how long Abraham waited for that promise. Are you Abraham's seed? Heirs according to PROMISE? WHO'S promise and WHAT Promise? Do you even know? These promises "IN CHRIST ONLY" are the anckor of our soul. No, there is no more sacrifice for sin. Jesus paid it all. Going back and living under the Law is as much a warning to us as the author was telling the Jewish people in Hebrews 10:26-27.

If anyone sins deliberately by rejecting the Savior after knowing the truth of forgivness, this sin is not covered by Christ's death. The wrath of God is reserved for those who have rejected the love of the Gospel (Thess). The only unforgivable sin is rejecting Jesus Christ.

Love in Christ
Katy-did


:-)
roaringlamb wrote:
Brother,
Your words were very kind.

Quote:
He said it is pointless to create a doctrine such as "eternal security" when the Word is so clear about the end result of a soul that lives in continual sin.



I would agree with this to a point. What I mean is that if we are honest with ourselves and God, we will see that it is impossible to live one day without sin. Every stray thought not revolving around Christ is an apostate thought and therefore sin, every idle moment that could be better spent is sin. Now we cannot rename these sins to claim we are sinless, because there was and will be unitl glory one Sinless One. Yet Christ does not quench the wick even if there is much smoke and little light or heat.

The true child of God will sin :-o, BUT, there will be conviction of sin. I like to think of a pig and a cat. A pig has no problem laying in the mud and filth, but a cat is picky even about a splash of water on its coat. The pig will be a pig until it is changed into something else. It is a simple illustration and I hope it serves the purpose- the unsaved could care nothing about the offense they have caused to God or their fellow man. The sanctification process is ongoing, and at times down right painful as the fire rises to purify even the things we thought were glorifying to God. But He does not cast us off.

How is it that the laws we could not keep prior to knowing Christ, suddenly in our human strength we are now able to perfectly obey? There is one Mediator, one Justifier, and that is Christ.

But again, just so none accuse me of being antinomian, a true child of God will battle against the sin remaining in them, and this would be one suggestion that there is Another living within now.

 2007/6/5 13:00
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Deceived by thinking that those whom Jesus died for will not be lost?
Deceived in believing that Christ the Good Shepherd will keep His sheep?

No, Deceived with the very subtle lies mixed with the truth.

Enough lies and one will soon be way off tract fron the truth.

[b]2Thes 2:3[/b] [color=990000]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;[/color]
What and WHO do you think ones are "falling away" from?

[b]2Tim 4:3[/b] [color=990000]For the time will come when they will [b]not endure sound doctrine[/b]; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
[b]:4[/b] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.[/color]
Who will heap up teachers to themselves?
This is clearly the Church!


[b]Jeremiah 5:31[/b] [color=990000]The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and [b]my people love to have it so[/b]: and what will ye do in the end thereof?[/color]

How could you be so hard minded and not see this?

Furthermore, when we see pneumo-centric worship based on The Holy Spirit instead of Christo-centric worship, with The Spirit pointing to Jesus

When drunken behaviour and animal imitations are advocated as manifestations of The Holy Spirit (as in Toronto, Pensacola and Holy Trinity Brompton), we know it is an demonic spirit and we see leaven in the Church. [b]Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.[/b]
When we see Morris Cerullo pronouncing a little child healed who tragically dies shortly afterwards after stopping her medication and we see him marketing his "Holy Ghost Miracle Cloths” to Remove debt, we see leaven.

 2007/6/5 15:46Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

I unfortunately don't see what you're getting at. One form of deception would be that I of my own "free will" chose God over sin without God renewing my heart to want what I once despised(Christ), and to despise what I once loved(sin, self, satan). That is one of the oldest most subtle serpents to creep around the world. Pelagius taught it, the Roman Catholics still teach it, and the Arminians applaud it while mixing in forms of Calvinism in part because of confusion as to what Historic Arminianism teaches.

If a person is justified by God, it has nothing to do with that person, but all to do with God's amazing grace and choice of that person. Now before anyone gets upset, let me ask the question how do you know who has been chosen and who hasn't? Get out and preach the Gospel and those who are converted were, and those who don't may need another day, or were not chosen. But there at least is hope that the labour will not be unfruitful!


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/6/5 16:00Profile









 Re:

Logic, The two verses you placed in 2 Thes and 2 Tim are to Christians. The first in 2 Thes, Paul is telling the early Christians who were told that the resurrection had already passed, or some say the Rapture of teh Church...Paul is saying, "Don't be deceived, for certain things will take place first.

Next in 2 Tim, Again, Christians are warned these things will happen. John said, also these things are going to happen, and when you see it happening you know they were never of us to begin with. These scriptures are actually comforting the Saints. There must be coming a time when Christians are going to become so discouraged because of this multitude of multitudes following after other gods. I can say it has been for me. Friends I've had for years, who seemed to be right their grounded in the Word, now laugh and mock the very things they professed at one time to be so important. I also understand many Calvinist, myself growing up in a Calvinist home, that it's OSAS...never question your salvation. Well, growing up, I must have gotten saved 17 or more times. I knew there was something missing. Oh, my brother and I use to win contests at Church knowing the most Bible verses. I knew the Gospel, that Jesus died for my sin. What I found out many years later is that I never heard the rest of the Gospel, only the easy believeism side. Then one day, I heard the Gospel of Romans 6, something I had never heard before. I also heard something I had never heard before then too....I heard the Lord say, Kathryn, I want your whole life, and I said YES. From that moment on, my life has not been my own. I am so glad of that. I would have only made a mess of it. He made something beautiful out of it, but not without pain and sorrow and loss. What I lost the Lord has given back a million times over. Yes, life comes out of death. I believe in Whosoever will. I believe Whosoever will follow Jesus into death and resurrection life will never doubt their salvation, or ever want their old life back. I believe He is able to Keep ALL I have committed unto Him against that day. Do you know How I know? Because He told me so. Doctrine is one thing, relationship is quite another. Many will fall away I believe because they have never heard the WHOLE Gospel. The part where the Spirit of Life In Christ has set us free from the Law of sin and death. People can argue doctrine the rest of their life and never KNOW the Lord personally. If you feel that something is missing in your life, that the word just doesn't manifest itself in you as it should, cry out to God and ask if you are really saved...katy-did! :-)

 2007/6/5 17:48
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Good word katy, thank you for sharing.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/6/5 18:11Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
I unfortunately don't see what you're getting at.

I am getting at People don't "loose their salvation", They drift away by subtle lies that are mixt in with the truth. Have you ever watch TBN?

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
One form of deception would be that I of my own "free will" chose God over sin without God renewing my heart to want what I once despised(Christ), and to despise what I once loved(sin, self, satan).

One despises Christ because one does not know Him.
Once someone shows a man the truth os his sins and that he is condemnd by the clear evidence,
one will Find the truth of Jesus and will not be able to despise Him.

Man is not so depraved that he can not know the truth about his own sin and conemnation.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
That is one of the oldest most subtle serpents to creep around the world. Pelagius taught it, the Roman Catholics still teach it, and the Arminians applaud it while mixing in forms of Calvinism in part because of confusion as to what Historic Arminianism teaches.

Know it by the fruit.

There is more retention in ones keeping with the faith by Finney than Billy Graham.

Finney had an 80% retention rate because he apeald to the intelect and not the emotions that so many today are doing.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
If a person is justified by God, it has nothing to do with that person, but all to do with God's amazing grace and choice of that person.

You admitted that you chose.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Get out and preach the Gospel

Preach the Calvinistic gosple?

John 3:16-17 For God so loved some of the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever HE chooses must believeth in him would not perish while He chooses the rest to burn in Hell as He created them to do.
:17 For God sent his Son into the world to condemn most the world; but that some of the world through him might be saved."

 2007/6/5 20:04Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Finney had an 80% retention rate because he apeald to the intelect and not the emotions that so many today are doing.



Finney upheld the Pelagian lie that says, "if I ought, I can" or that man is not dead in sin as the Scriptures declare. Thus man can at anytime freely choose God.

Finney preached against vices and convicted people of moral failures. He even went so far as to say it was a sin to use too much sugar, or to drink coffee.

I reccommend these articles

[url=http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/finney.htm]Finney[/url]

[url=http://www.the-highway.com/articleMar00.html]Charles Finney[/url]

As far as percentage of retention, how do you know that is true? Also God has a 100% retention rate. Those whom He calls and regenrates go on to glory!!!

Quote:
Preach the Calvinistic gosple?

John 3:16-17 For God so loved some of the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever HE chooses must believeth in him would not perish while He chooses the rest to burn in Hell as He created them to do.
:17 For God sent his Son into the world to condemn most the world; but that some of the world through him might be saved."



The very verse you quoted is more "calvinist" than you suppose. Look at it without any preconceived or emotional ideas.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world,[i](not just the Jews, as Jesus is speaking to Nicodemas who believed as did all Jews at this time that salvation was only for the Jews)[/i] that he gave his only begotten Son, [b]that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,[/b][i](It is poor study that places the emphasis of this passage on "whosoever", for the "whosoever" must do something to not perish, that is believe. But no man can believe unless he is born from above to see the Kingdom and its King.)[/i] but have everlasting life.

Brother, does God owe man salvation? Some who have made an idol for themselves would say, "yes, everyman deserves a chance" But I ask you this, "who says?" Man or God?

Man had a chance once, and as you and I have been through before, man's will is not nuetral or torn between two sides. Man's will is against God, and taken captive by Satan-

2 Timothy 2:26 And that they may recover themselves [b]out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.[/b]

This is why Jesus told the pharisees, "ye are of your father the devil, and his deeds will ye do." Jesus also told them that he that committs sin is the slave to sin.

Man is not nuetral. Even Adam was not nuetral, he very much was pro-God, but at the instigation of Satan sinned and became pro-satan(I will allow you to say self, as satan is the god of self).

Until you come to grips with how utterly wretched man is, you will not understand the fullness of the Saviour, and the level to which He stooped to redeem you. Cast away your idol of free-will and thank God that He granted you faith to believe, and grace to be in Christ and a child of God.

Grace and peace to you, and much agape :-)


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/6/5 20:46Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

First of all, I don't agree 100% w/Finney.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Brother, does God owe man salvation? Some who have made an idol for themselves would say, "yes, everyman deserves a chance" But I ask you this, "who says?" Man or God?

You evidently do not know what atonement is about.
Not to mention Regeneration.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Man had a chance once, and as you and I have been through before, man's will is not nuetral or torn between two sides. Man's will is against God, and taken captive by Satan-

Not according to your doctrin:
One who is not saved has no chance unless he is prechosen.
Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Man's will is against God, and taken captive by Satan-


Mans [b]will[/b] is not against God but the carnal mind set is(Rom 8:7).

What is the carnal mind set?
It it to live for the desires of your fleshly compultions.

The only reason why the one who is not saved can only live by the fleash is because His root is not Christ.
While one is not grafted in Christ, his root is of himself, therfore, he is selfish.

One Who is selfish will naturaly do what he wants and not another's, even Christ, thus, he sinns.

Furthermore, You put to much emphasis on the satan and not enough on the world.

The choice is not "heaven or hell", but "heaven or this world".
[b]James 4:4[/b] [color=990000]Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.[/color]
[b]1John 2:15[/b] [color=990000]Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.[/color]

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
(I will allow you to say self, as satan is the god of self).



satan is not the "god of self", you are the god of your self, I am the god of my self.
Again, you put to much emphasis satan.

Satan can do nothing unless you give him a foothold.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Until you come to grips with how utterly wretched man is, you will not understand the fullness of the Saviour,



Man is not [b]utterly[/b] wretched, only wretched.

Man is not "totlay depraved, but ony depraved.

[b]Rom 7:22[/b] [color=990000]For I delight in the Law of God according to the [b]inward man[/b];[/color]
In other words:
For I delight in the requirements of God according to [b]my true self[/b].

[b]Rom 7:23[/b] [color=990000]but I see another law in my members having warred against [b]the law of my mind[/b], and taking me captive by the law of sin being in my members.[/color]
In other words:
But then, I see different set of requirements, and they are in my members, warring against [b]the standard of my moral conscience[/b], and bringing me into captivity to those requirements of my own fleshly desires which are in my members.

If Paul coud "delight in the Law of God" & war with "the law of his mind" against sin (his own fleshly desires) being in his members, That would not make him [b]totaly[/b] depraved.

Until you come to grips with reality you will always continue in your docrtin of your ignorance.
With that doctrin, you will not understand the fullness of reality, and the level to which He made man according to His image.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
...and the level to which He stooped to redeem you.

Me, yes, but according to your doctrine, god didn't stoop low enough for my grandfather.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
thank God that He granted you faith to believe,and grace to be in Christ and a child of God

I will not thank that Calvinistic tyrant of a god.

My god has granted [b]all[/b] men faith as He has granted [b]all[/b] men breath.

Some men choose not to put their faith in Him.

Therefore, it is man who puts him self in hell and not the God who loves them.

 2007/6/5 22:26Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Katy-did:

You did not answer what and WHO do you think ones are "falling away" from in 2Thes 2:3?

OR

Who will heap up teachers to themselves?
This is clearly the Church in 2Tim 4:3-4

 2007/6/5 22:29Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Brother, I would like to apologize for not having compassion with you in the situation with your grandfather and ask forgiveness for not asking you how you are with your loss.

This to me is more important than our discussion as I see it has and must still cause you pain. If I may pray for you, please direct me how.

I hope that you have not felt personally attacked in any of my responses, if so please let me know. I will tread lightly, but according to my convictions as based upon Scripture, and the testimony thereof.

Quote:
You evidently do not know what atonement is about.



I do know what the Bible says about the atonement, and it does not say it is for all men. All men will not be saved therefore the atonement is not for all men. Is unbelief a sin? if it is, then why didn't the universal atonement cancel that out for all?

Quote:
The choice is not "heaven or hell", but "heaven or this world".
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
1John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.



These verses are not written to unsaved people, they are written to Christians, and are warnings to them.

What do you say about these verses
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, [b]and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. [/b]

And then after the flood
Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; [b]for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;[/b] neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Notice how Paul describes the Colossians before Christ
Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and [b]enemies in your mind by wicked works,[/b] yet now hath he reconciled

Does not the mind control much of our decisions? If so, then an evil mind produces evil fruit which is really an outflow of an evil heart is it not?

Quote:
satan is not the "god of self", you are the god of your self, I am the god of my self.
Again, you put to much emphasis satan.

Satan can do nothing unless you give him a foothold.



I said satan is the god of the unsaved as he has enslaved and deceived them, thus he entraps them in the sin they love.

As for satan needing a foothold, ever read Job? God allows satan to buffet His children at times, but satan is at God's command.

Quote:
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man;
In other words:
For I delight in the requirements of God according to my true self.

Rom 7:23 but I see another law in my members having warred against the law of my mind, and taking me captive by the law of sin being in my members.
In other words:
But then, I see different set of requirements, and they are in my members, warring against the standard of my moral conscience, and bringing me into captivity to those requirements of my own fleshly desires which are in my members.

If Paul coud "delight in the Law of God" & war with "the law of his mind" against sin (his own fleshly desires) being in his members, That would not make him totaly depraved.



This would work except Paul here is speaking as a saved man, thus he sees the conflict and the battle of enjoying one while hating the other.
Romans 7:6 But [b]now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.[/b] This is prior to his description of the struggle.

Also compare with
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

In the unsaved, there is no battle, man drinks down iniquity like water.

Quote:
Until you come to grips with reality you will always continue in your docrtin of your ignorance.
With that doctrin, you will not understand the fullness of reality, and the level to which He made man according to His image.



Man was made in the image of God, yet that image was severely marred when sin entered and will not be fully re-established until that day when we will see Him and be like Him.

Unsaved man has more in common with the devil and his demons than he does with God.

Quote:
I will not thank that Calvinistic tyrant of a god.

My god has granted all men faith as He has granted all men breath.

Some men choose not to put their faith in Him.

Therefore, it is man who puts him self in hell and not the God who loves them.



Again you say, "your god", but is your god the God of Scripture?

Consider this passage
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: [b]Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.[/b]

It says nothing about man sending himself to hell, but rather God casting them into hell.

It is not the Calvinist God I defend brother, I defend the fact that God is sovereign over all His creation, and that as it says in Psalm 115, "he has done whatsoever has pleased Him"


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/6/6 1:24Profile





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